There is an interesting article in Slipped Disc which is likely to be reasonably accurate than usual for that august journal as it was not written by Norman Lebrecht, who might be described as a sort of British David Hurwitz without the scarves and the chutzpah. It is part of a letter from Simon Woods, president of the League of American Orchestras

"Today, as we try to find our way in a society that has dramatically evolved in the last few years around expectations of community, inclusion, and audience building, it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the artistic parts of them. At the time of writing, I don’t know of an executive director or board chair of an American orchestra who is not deeply anxious about the future of their audiences. This is not just the normal handwringing about the difficulties of growing audiences that we have discussed for decades; this is something different. The current ticket-sales experience across the field tells the story of an audience that may drift away unless it is renewed. Every orchestra doing a music director search has an opportunity to consider the role of their artistic leader in tackling this challenge."

< https://slippedisc.com/2022/12/us-orchestras-are-told-to-change-their-music-director-role/ >

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> artistic parts of them.
>

What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?

dk

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> > and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> > artistic parts of them.
> >
> What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
>
> dk

Again, it's not Lebrecht speaking, the wokeness is reported as coming from American orchestras trying to grow their audiences. The informed comments on this article are an interesting read, especially those from the City of Cheese.

I should mention that we do have an orchestra here in Canberra, but I have never been to see them. My concerts, opera and ballet come from Germany, Britain and France via video streaming services.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> > and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> > artistic parts of them.
> >
> What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
>
> dk

What's wrong with cheerleaders anyway? I think that certain works might actually be improved by their presence. Bruckner symphonies comes to mind here.. And Mahler song cycles.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

"Kindertotenlieder has got me on the go,
Kindertotenlieder has got me all crazy ... "

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:38:20 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> > > and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> > > artistic parts of them.
> > >
> > What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> > Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> > Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
>
> What's wrong with cheerleaders anyway?

Depends on what instruments the play.

> I think that certain works might actually be improved by
> their presence. Bruckner symphonies comes to mind here.

Presidential elections?

dk

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:33:25 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> > > and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> > > artistic parts of them.
> > >
> > What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> > Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> > Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
>
> Again, it's not Lebrecht speaking, the wokeness is reported
> as coming from American orchestras trying to grow their
> audiences. The informed comments on this article are an
> interesting read, especially those from the City of Cheese.

Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.

> I should mention that we do have an orchestra here in Canberra,

Is there any other reason to see Canberra?

dk

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 6:32:24 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
> Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.

And like most infections, everybody will be immune to it once it has been exhausted by everyone who can make a buck off it (and sound sincere while doing it). That said, if the market for orchestras shrinks, the greater value "sexy" maestros will be, whether that be a Lenny or a Mirga.

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 2:00:52 PM UTC+11, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 6:32:24 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
> > Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.
> And like most infections, everybody will be immune to it once it has been exhausted by everyone who can make a buck off it (and sound sincere while doing it). That said, if the market for orchestras shrinks, the greater value "sexy" maestros will be, whether that be a Lenny or a Mirga.

I find interesting that some of our American cousins are avoiding the issue.. What the text clearly says, irrespective of Lebrecht's motives might or might not be, is that some US orchestras may well find themselves with players and an endowment but not much of an audience.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 11:32:24 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:33:25 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> > > > and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> > > > artistic parts of them.
> > > >
> > > What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> > > Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> > > Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
> >
> > Again, it's not Lebrecht speaking, the wokeness is reported
> > as coming from American orchestras trying to grow their
> > audiences. The informed comments on this article are an
> > interesting read, especially those from the City of Cheese.
> Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
> Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.
> > I should mention that we do have an orchestra here in Canberra,
> Is there any other reason to see Canberra?
>

My dear Deek, I realise that this is a city you are most unlikely to visit. This is an enormous incentive for me to remain here ...

Andrew Clarke
Still in Canberra, albeit only just. Rural NSW is just down the road.

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 2:16:56 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 11:32:24 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:33:25 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> > > > > and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> > > > > artistic parts of them.
> > > > >
> > > > What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> > > > Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> > > > Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
> > >
> > > Again, it's not Lebrecht speaking, the wokeness is reported
> > > as coming from American orchestras trying to grow their
> > > audiences. The informed comments on this article are an
> > > interesting read, especially those from the City of Cheese.
> > Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
> > Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.
> > > I should mention that we do have an orchestra here in Canberra,
> > Is there any other reason to see Canberra?
> >
> My dear Deek, I realise that this is a
> city you are most unlikely to visit.

En route to Thredbo. All roads ultimately
lead to a mountain or to a ski resort.

dk

On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 5:33:47 PM UTC-5, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> There is an interesting article in Slipped Disc which is likely to be reasonably accurate than usual for that august journal as it was not written by Norman Lebrecht, who might be described as a sort of British David Hurwitz without the scarves and the chutzpah. It is part of a letter from Simon Woods, president of the League of American Orchestras
>
> "Today, as we try to find our way in a society that has dramatically evolved in the last few years around expectations of community, inclusion, and audience building, it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the artistic parts of them. At the time of writing, I don’t know of an executive director or board chair of an American orchestra who is not deeply anxious about the future of their audiences. This is not just the normal handwringing about the difficulties of growing audiences that we have discussed for decades; this is something different. The current ticket-sales experience across the field tells the story of an audience that may drift away unless it is renewed. Every orchestra doing a music director search has an opportunity to consider the role of their artistic leader in tackling this challenge."
>
> < https://slippedisc.com/2022/12/us-orchestras-are-told-to-change-their-music-director-role/ >
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra
There is another difference - I don't think Hurwitz lies or steals

On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 2:11:41 AM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 2:00:52 PM UTC+11, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > And like most infections, everybody will be immune to it
> > once it has been exhausted by everyone who can make a
> > buck off it (and sound sincere while doing it). That said, if
> > the market for orchestras shrinks, the greater value "sexy"
> > maestros will be, whether that be a Lenny or a Mirga.
>
> I find interesting that some of our American cousins are
> avoiding the issue. What the text clearly says, irrespective
> of Lebrecht's motives might or might not be, is that some
> US orchestras may well find themselves with players and
> an endowment but not much of an audience.

They can always play for large audiences at football games.

dk

On 12/21/22 4:32 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:33:25 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
>>>> and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
>>>> artistic parts of them.
>>>>
>>> What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
>>> Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
>>> Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
>>
>> Again, it's not Lebrecht speaking, the wokeness is reported
>> as coming from American orchestras trying to grow their
>> audiences. The informed comments on this article are an
>> interesting read, especially those from the City of Cheese.
>
> Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
> Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.
>
>> I should mention that we do have an orchestra here in Canberra,
>
> Is there any other reason to see Canberra?
>
> dk
>
A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.

Bob Harper

On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 12/21/22 4:32 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 3:33:25 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Thursday, December 22, 2022 at 9:47:50 AM UTC+11, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, December 21, 2022 at 2:33:47 PM UTC-8, andrewc...@gmail..com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> it’s clear that we need music directors who embrace
> >>>> and support orchestras’ full missions, not just the
> >>>> artistic parts of them.
> >>>>
> >>> What are orchestras' other missions besides "artistic"?
> >>> Cheerleading baseball and soccer games? Has "The
> >>> Slipped Disc" slipped itself into wokeness?
> >>
> >> Again, it's not Lebrecht speaking, the wokeness is reported
> >> as coming from American orchestras trying to grow their
> >> audiences. The informed comments on this article are an
> >> interesting read, especially those from the City of Cheese.
> >
> > Yes we all know this. My point however was thet the Slipped
> > Disc is picking the wokeness vibe. That's contagious.
> >
> >> I should mention that we do have an orchestra here in Canberra,
> >
> > Is there any other reason to see Canberra?
> >
> > dk
> >
> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
>
> Bob Harper

Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC. Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.

Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording contracts. Might this constitute a problem?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

andrewc wrote:
some of our American cousins are avoiding the issue.

Wasn't that the play Mrs Lincoln was asked about?

On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>
>>>
>> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
>> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC. Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
> If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
>
> Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me corrected.
The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine that it
resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two says
a great deal.
We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
the area :).

Bob Harper

On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 12:01:48 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
> >> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
> >>
> >> Bob Harper
> >
> > Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC. Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
> > If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
> >
> > Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > Canberra
> Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me corrected.
> The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
> wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine that it
> resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two says
> a great deal.
> We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
> don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
> the area :).
>
> Bob Harper

The old building, opened in 1927, was only supposed to be temporary until a more grandiose structure was built, but in the event, it remained the site of Australia's Federal Parliament for sixty years. It's now a museum, as you know. Not far away is the Australian National Gallery, also well worth a visit.

What Americans call 'downtown', we call the CBD (Central Business District) and Canberra's is split in two by a four-lane road (Northbourne Avenue) so you can drive right through it and across Commonwealth Bridge over the lake without even knowing.

Andrew Clarke
still in Canberra

On 12/23/22 6:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 12:01:48 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
>>>> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Harper
>>>
>>> Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC. Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
>>> If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> Canberra
>> Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me corrected.
>> The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
>> wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine that it
>> resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two says
>> a great deal.
>> We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
>> don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
>> the area :).
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> The old building, opened in 1927, was only supposed to be temporary until a more grandiose structure was built, but in the event, it remained the site of Australia's Federal Parliament for sixty years. It's now a museum, as you know. Not far away is the Australian National Gallery, also well worth a visit.
>
> What Americans call 'downtown', we call the CBD (Central Business District) and Canberra's is split in two by a four-lane road (Northbourne Avenue) so you can drive right through it and across Commonwealth Bridge over the lake without even knowing.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> still in Canberra

Well, Canberra does have an....unfinished air about it, sort of like
Albuquerque, New Mexico :).

Bob Harper

On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 5:03:17 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 12/23/22 6:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 12:01:48 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >> On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
> >>>> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob Harper
> >>>
> >>> Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC. Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
> >>> If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
> >>>
> >>> Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
> >>>
> >>> Andrew Clarke
> >>> Canberra
> >> Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me corrected.
> >> The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
> >> wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine that it
> >> resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two says
> >> a great deal.
> >> We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
> >> don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
> >> the area :).
> >>
> >> Bob Harper
> >
> > The old building, opened in 1927, was only supposed to be temporary until a more grandiose structure was built, but in the event, it remained the site of Australia's Federal Parliament for sixty years. It's now a museum, as you know. Not far away is the Australian National Gallery, also well worth a visit.
> >
> > What Americans call 'downtown', we call the CBD (Central Business District) and Canberra's is split in two by a four-lane road (Northbourne Avenue) so you can drive right through it and across Commonwealth Bridge over the lake without even knowing.
> >
> > Andrew Clarke
> > still in Canberra
> Well, Canberra does have an....unfinished air about it, sort of like
> Albuquerque, New Mexico :).
>
> Bob Harper

Hmm. I cannot imagine Bugs Bunny failing to take a left hand turn in Canberra, as he famously did in Albuquerque on several occasions. Nor does Canberra have the same problems of crime and poverty as Albuquerque. It's also a much younger settlement - it was sheep pasture until the 1920s - and much richer, being the home of lots of lots of civil servants with job security and good salaries. The overall impression is of well-heeled suburban respectability, with only one or two areas where petty crime is a problem. It has the reputation in Australia (and elsewhere) of being a place where it's safe, comfortable but architecturally undistinguished and very, very boring. It was said in the 1970s that the busiest place in Canberra was the local airport on a Friday evening, when everybody who could afford it "went home" to Sydney or Melbourne, but that has changed now. Its main attraction is the hilly countryside around it, the Brindabella Ranges and a couple of national parks. In winter, the Snowy Mountain ski resorts are not too far away. In summer, the coast is a couple of hours away, although the roads down the side of the Great Dividing Range can be narrow, twisting, very steep and full of traffic at the beginning and end of the school holidays.

Musical life has generally revolved around the School of Music at the Australian National University, although this is less prosperous than it used to be, with many students preferring the fleshpots of Melbourne and Sydney. There is a branch of Musica Viva Australia here, and so we do get some very distinguished pianists and chamber ensembles giving recitals here, although I don't remember the McDeek of that Ilk making an appearance. But for anything grander than that, you generally need to travel 300km to Sydney.

Andrew Clarke
arrived here to study in 1973 with no intention of staying.

On 12/24/22 2:39 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 5:03:17 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 12/23/22 6:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 12:01:48 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>> On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the finest
>>>>>> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob Harper
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC. Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
>>>>> If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>> Canberra
>>>> Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me corrected.
>>>> The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
>>>> wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine that it
>>>> resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two says
>>>> a great deal.
>>>> We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
>>>> don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
>>>> the area :).
>>>>
>>>> Bob Harper
>>>
>>> The old building, opened in 1927, was only supposed to be temporary until a more grandiose structure was built, but in the event, it remained the site of Australia's Federal Parliament for sixty years. It's now a museum, as you know. Not far away is the Australian National Gallery, also well worth a visit.
>>>
>>> What Americans call 'downtown', we call the CBD (Central Business District) and Canberra's is split in two by a four-lane road (Northbourne Avenue) so you can drive right through it and across Commonwealth Bridge over the lake without even knowing.
>>>
>>> Andrew Clarke
>>> still in Canberra
>> Well, Canberra does have an....unfinished air about it, sort of like
>> Albuquerque, New Mexico :).
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Hmm. I cannot imagine Bugs Bunny failing to take a left hand turn in Canberra, as he famously did in Albuquerque on several occasions. Nor does Canberra have the same problems of crime and poverty as Albuquerque. It's also a much younger settlement - it was sheep pasture until the 1920s - and much richer, being the home of lots of lots of civil servants with job security and good salaries. The overall impression is of well-heeled suburban respectability, with only one or two areas where petty crime is a problem. It has the reputation in Australia (and elsewhere) of being a place where it's safe, comfortable but architecturally undistinguished and very, very boring. It was said in the 1970s that the busiest place in Canberra was the local airport on a Friday evening, when everybody who could afford it "went home" to Sydney or Melbourne, but that has changed now. Its main attraction is the hilly countryside around it, the Brindabella Ranges and a couple of national parks. In winter, the Snowy Mountain ski resorts are not too far away. In summer, the coast is a couple of hours away, although the roads down the side of the Great Dividing Range can be narrow, twisting, very steep and full of traffic at the beginning and end of the school holidays.
>
> Musical life has generally revolved around the School of Music at the Australian National University, although this is less prosperous than it used to be, with many students preferring the fleshpots of Melbourne and Sydney. There is a branch of Musica Viva Australia here, and so we do get some very distinguished pianists and chamber ensembles giving recitals here, although I don't remember the McDeek of that Ilk making an appearance. But for anything grander than that, you generally need to travel 300km to Sydney.
>
> Andrew Clarke
> arrived here to study in 1973 with no intention of staying.
I didn't mean to imply that Cabnberra had the same problems as
Albuquerque, just that it looked unfinished in places, with, for
example, cattle grazing in some open areas of the city when we were
there 5 or so years ago.
Re excitement, I can report that my SIL, a native Sydneysider, referred
to it on one occasion, in all sober seriousness, as Canboring. I suspect
that's overstated, but Sydney it ain't.
Bob Harper

On 12/24/22 10:18 AM, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 12/24/22 2:39 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 5:03:17 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>> On 12/23/22 6:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 12:01:48 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>>> On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the
>>>>>>> finest
>>>>>>> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob Harper
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC.
>>>>>> Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old
>>>>>> Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite
>>>>>> striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal
>>>>>> from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable
>>>>>> downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh
>>>>>> yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
>>>>>> If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at
>>>>>> Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big
>>>>>> endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording
>>>>>> contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>>>> Canberra
>>>>> Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me
>>>>> corrected.
>>>>> The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
>>>>> wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine
>>>>> that it
>>>>> resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two
>>>>> says
>>>>> a great deal.
>>>>> We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
>>>>> don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
>>>>> the area :).
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob Harper
>>>>
>>>> The old building, opened in 1927, was only supposed to be temporary
>>>> until a more grandiose structure was built, but in the event, it
>>>> remained the site of Australia's Federal Parliament for sixty years.
>>>> It's now a museum, as you know. Not far away is the Australian
>>>> National Gallery, also well worth a visit.
>>>>
>>>> What Americans call 'downtown', we call the CBD (Central Business
>>>> District) and Canberra's is split in two by a four-lane road
>>>> (Northbourne Avenue) so you can drive right through it and across
>>>> Commonwealth Bridge over the lake without even knowing.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Clarke
>>>> still in Canberra
>>> Well, Canberra does have an....unfinished air about it, sort of like
>>> Albuquerque, New Mexico :).
>>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>> Hmm. I cannot imagine Bugs Bunny failing to take a left hand turn in
>> Canberra, as he famously did in Albuquerque on several occasions. Nor
>> does Canberra have the same problems of crime and poverty as
>> Albuquerque. It's also a much younger settlement - it was sheep
>> pasture until the 1920s - and much richer, being the home of lots of
>> lots of civil servants with job security and good salaries. The
>> overall impression is of well-heeled suburban respectability, with
>> only one or two areas where petty crime is a problem. It has the
>> reputation in Australia (and elsewhere) of being a place where it's
>> safe, comfortable but architecturally undistinguished and very, very
>> boring. It was said in the 1970s that the busiest place in Canberra
>> was the local airport on a Friday evening, when everybody who could
>> afford it "went home" to Sydney or Melbourne, but that has changed
>> now. Its main attraction is the hilly countryside around it, the
>> Brindabella Ranges and a couple of national parks. In winter, the
>> Snowy Mountain ski resorts are not too far away. In summer, the coast
>> is a couple of hours away, although the roads down the side of the
>> Great Dividing Range can be narrow, twisting, very steep and full of
>> traffic at the beginning and end of the school holidays.
>>
>> Musical life has generally revolved around the School of Music at the
>> Australian National University, although this is less prosperous than
>> it used to be, with many students preferring the fleshpots of
>> Melbourne and Sydney. There is a branch of Musica Viva Australia here,
>> and so we do get some very distinguished pianists and chamber
>> ensembles giving recitals here, although I don't remember the McDeek
>> of that Ilk making an appearance. But for anything grander than that,
>> you generally need to travel 300km to Sydney.
>>
>> Andrew Clarke
>> arrived here to study in 1973 with no intention of staying.
>
> I didn't mean to imply that Cabnberra had the same problems as
> Albuquerque, just that it looked unfinished in places, with, for
> example, cattle grazing in some open areas of the city when we were
> there 5 or so years ago.
>
> Re excitement, I can report that my SIL, a native Sydneysider, referred
> to it on one occasion, in all sober seriousness, as Canboring. I suspect
> that's overstated, but Sydney it ain't.
>
> Bob Harper

I should add that we thoroughly enjoyed our visit.

Bob Harper

On Sunday, December 25, 2022 at 5:19:11 AM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> On 12/24/22 10:18 AM, Bob Harper wrote:
> > On 12/24/22 2:39 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 5:03:17 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >>> On 12/23/22 6:16 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>> On Saturday, December 24, 2022 at 12:01:48 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >>>>> On 12/23/22 1:34 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >>>>>> On Friday, December 23, 2022 at 3:18:20 PM UTC+11, Bob Harper wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A trip out of town to Clonakilla is reason enough. Some of the
> >>>>>>> finest
> >>>>>>> wine in OZ made there. The Capitol area is....interesting.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bob Harper
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Last time I looked, Bob, the Capitol was still in Washington DC.
> >>>>>> Here, we have the Parliamentary Triangle, which includes Old
> >>>>>> Parliament House and New Parliament House, the latter being quite
> >>>>>> striking from the outside while resembling an airport terminal
> >>>>>> from the inside. We also have the world's most forgettable
> >>>>>> downtown area called "Civic", famed for its shopping mall ... Oh
> >>>>>> yes, and Lake Burley Griffin, perhaps the city's best feature.
> >>>>>> If you want rugged grandeur, there's always the Big Merino at
> >>>>>> Goulburn, about an hour's drive away.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Meanwhile, you have some big orchestras with big maestros and big
> >>>>>> endowments with declining audiences and El Zilcho recording
> >>>>>> contracts. Might this constitute a problem?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Andrew Clarke
> >>>>>> Canberra
> >>>>> Andrew, I didn't know that's what it's called, so consider me
> >>>>> corrected.
> >>>>> The Old Parliament House was impressive, at least to us. The new one
> >>>>> wasn't open (at least I don't think so), but I can well imagine
> >>>>> that it
> >>>>> resembles an airport terminal inside. The contrast between the two
> >>>>> says
> >>>>> a great deal.
> >>>>> We did eat at an excellent Hungarian restaurant in the downtown area;
> >>>>> don't recall the name. Still, for us, Clonakilla's the best feature of
> >>>>> the area :).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob Harper
> >>>>
> >>>> The old building, opened in 1927, was only supposed to be temporary
> >>>> until a more grandiose structure was built, but in the event, it
> >>>> remained the site of Australia's Federal Parliament for sixty years.
> >>>> It's now a museum, as you know. Not far away is the Australian
> >>>> National Gallery, also well worth a visit.
> >>>>
> >>>> What Americans call 'downtown', we call the CBD (Central Business
> >>>> District) and Canberra's is split in two by a four-lane road
> >>>> (Northbourne Avenue) so you can drive right through it and across
> >>>> Commonwealth Bridge over the lake without even knowing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Andrew Clarke
> >>>> still in Canberra
> >>> Well, Canberra does have an....unfinished air about it, sort of like
> >>> Albuquerque, New Mexico :).
> >>>
> >>> Bob Harper
> >>
> >> Hmm. I cannot imagine Bugs Bunny failing to take a left hand turn in
> >> Canberra, as he famously did in Albuquerque on several occasions. Nor
> >> does Canberra have the same problems of crime and poverty as
> >> Albuquerque. It's also a much younger settlement - it was sheep
> >> pasture until the 1920s - and much richer, being the home of lots of
> >> lots of civil servants with job security and good salaries. The
> >> overall impression is of well-heeled suburban respectability, with
> >> only one or two areas where petty crime is a problem. It has the
> >> reputation in Australia (and elsewhere) of being a place where it's
> >> safe, comfortable but architecturally undistinguished and very, very
> >> boring. It was said in the 1970s that the busiest place in Canberra
> >> was the local airport on a Friday evening, when everybody who could
> >> afford it "went home" to Sydney or Melbourne, but that has changed
> >> now. Its main attraction is the hilly countryside around it, the
> >> Brindabella Ranges and a couple of national parks. In winter, the
> >> Snowy Mountain ski resorts are not too far away. In summer, the coast
> >> is a couple of hours away, although the roads down the side of the
> >> Great Dividing Range can be narrow, twisting, very steep and full of
> >> traffic at the beginning and end of the school holidays.
> >>
> >> Musical life has generally revolved around the School of Music at the
> >> Australian National University, although this is less prosperous than
> >> it used to be, with many students preferring the fleshpots of
> >> Melbourne and Sydney. There is a branch of Musica Viva Australia here,
> >> and so we do get some very distinguished pianists and chamber
> >> ensembles giving recitals here, although I don't remember the McDeek
> >> of that Ilk making an appearance. But for anything grander than that,
> >> you generally need to travel 300km to Sydney.
> >>
> >> Andrew Clarke
> >> arrived here to study in 1973 with no intention of staying.
> >
> > I didn't mean to imply that Cabnberra had the same problems as
> > Albuquerque, just that it looked unfinished in places, with, for
> > example, cattle grazing in some open areas of the city when we were
> > there 5 or so years ago.
> >
> > Re excitement, I can report that my SIL, a native Sydneysider, referred
> > to it on one occasion, in all sober seriousness, as Canboring. I suspect
> > that's overstated, but Sydney it ain't.
> >
> > Bob Harper
>
> I should add that we thoroughly enjoyed our visit.
>
> Bob Harper

Ah. I've never seen cattle (or sheep) safely grazing in Civic, but I remember when we had a serious drought one year, arrangements were made for the local farmers to graze their livestock on public land here. Add to that the amount of redevelopment going on recently in Civic and Belconnen Town Centre and I can understand your reaction. Sydney it most certainly ain't, or Melbourne for that matter, while Adelaide has some fine colonial era architecture plus a fake river (the Torrens) while we have three fake lakes ...

I'm really glad you enjoyed your visit overall. Meanwhile, I have just subscribed to the Metropolitan Opera streaming service. Go figure ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra