https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/jan/06/daniel-barenboim-step-down-berlin-state-opera-poor-health

Ray Hall, Taree

Wow! No one saw fit to reply to Mr. Hall's post? This is big news.

From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:

<< [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.

He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”

In an interview with the Guardian in 2000, an incandescent Barenboim said politicians who backed the merger were carrying out nothing less than a “western takeover” of the Staatsoper, one of east Germany’s most valuable cultural assets, in the same way western Germans had taken over companies, universities and almost every other aspect of the former German Democratic Republic. In the end he won the fight. >>

Amen.

On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 10:11:10 PM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:
>
> << [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.
>
> He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”

Is there any historical recording, or better yet, Youtube upload where one can hear that?

When he says "brilliance", is he criticizing Karajan?

Why is this even a topic here? Barenboim was no musician, he was a palestinian politician ;)

On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 10:37:08 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 10:11:10 PM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> > From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:
> >
> > << [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.
> >
> > He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”
> Is there any historical recording, or better yet, Youtube upload where one can hear that?
>
> When he says "brilliance", is he criticizing Karajan?

I wonder if executives of recording companies would say:

- Let's face it. If anything sells records in these times, it's 'brilliance'. In fact, the more 'brilliant', the better.

On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 10:37:08 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 10:11:10 PM UTC-8, Oscar wrote:
> > From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:
> >
> > << [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.
> >
> > He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”
> Is there any historical recording, or better yet, Youtube upload where one can hear that?
>
> When he says "brilliance", is he criticizing Karajan?

Could German orchestral sound have been reshaped to sound good on records by Karajan and by doing that, postwar audiences came to expect live performances to sound more like his recordings?

On Sunday, 8 January 2023 at 17:11:10 UTC+11, Oscar wrote:
> From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:
>
> << [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.
>
> He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”
>
> In an interview with the Guardian in 2000, an incandescent Barenboim said politicians who backed the merger were carrying out nothing less than a “western takeover” of the Staatsoper, one of east Germany’s most valuable cultural assets, in the same way western Germans had taken over companies, universities and almost every other aspect of the former German Democratic Republic. In the end he won the fight. >>
>
> Amen.

If there is one set of Bruckner symphonies I would still pounce on, it would be DB's Chicago set, apparently not available at the moment. He supposedly was a self-appointed heir to Furtwaengler, but I don't know enough about his recordings, or those of WF, to judge.

Ray Hall, Taree

Anyone else thought it was funny how the world went crazy a few days ago, when the Jews visited one of their holiest places?

Most of the MSM had the following tone: "Right wing extremist Ben-Gvir visited the Temple Mount against all warnings." - "against all warnings", eh? So, the Jews aren't allowed to visit one of their holiest places?

Because of what? Because the Palestinians are crying again over nothing? How about someone tell the palestinians to be more open towards the Jews? The Jews allow Christians, Muslims and, yes, even Jews to the temple mount... Will the Palestinians ever stop being whiny little kids that bitch over everything that doesn't go their way?

Love Ben-Gvir for giving a shit!

Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 07:49:10 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> Why is this even a topic here? Barenboim was no musician, he was a palestinian politician ;)

Maybe it's a good thing we don't have a moderator. We can now read both Ray's and Marc's post. And I can state that Barenboim is a great musician (albeit not a great pianist) with an impressive track record and more common sense than most politicians, Israeli or Palestinian.

Henk

Op 2023-01-08 om 13:28 schreef HT:
> Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 07:49:10 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
>> Why is this even a topic here? Barenboim was no musician, he was a palestinian politician ;)
>
> Maybe it's a good thing we don't have a moderator. We can now read both Ray's and Marc's post. And I can state that Barenboim is a great musician (albeit not a great pianist) with an impressive track record and more common sense than most politicians, Israeli or Palestinian.
>
> Henk

There is nothing wrong with Ray's post !

Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 16:20:04 UTC+1 schreef Gerard:
> Op 2023-01-08 om 13:28 schreef HT:
> > Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 07:49:10 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
> >> Why is this even a topic here? Barenboim was no musician, he was a palestinian politician ;)
> >
> > Maybe it's a good thing we don't have a moderator. We can now read both Ray's and Marc's post. And I can state that Barenboim is a great musician (albeit not a great pianist) with an impressive track record and more common sense than most politicians, Israeli or Palestinian.
> >
> > Henk
> There is nothing wrong with Ray's post !

There is also nothing wrong with Marc's post. He is free to post whatever he wants on RMCR.
Like you, I find it obvious that Ray should mention Barenboim's farewell. He is one of the giants in the world of classical music.
That some hate him for being an advocate of reconciliation and peace is indicative of these times.

Henk

On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 4:28:09 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> I can state that Barenboim is a great musician (albeit not
> a great pianist) with an impressive track record and more
> common sense than most politicians, Israeli or Palestinian.

Boringboim conducted the worst La Mer I ever heard, in a
venue that was perfect in every respect:

https://embassies.gov.il/london/culture/IsraeliCulture/Music/Pages/The-Roman-Theater-of-Caesarea.aspx

dk

On 1/8/2023 10:58 AM, HT wrote:
> Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 16:20:04 UTC+1 schreef Gerard:
>> Op 2023-01-08 om 13:28 schreef HT:
>>> Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 07:49:10 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
>>>> Why is this even a topic here? Barenboim was no musician, he was a palestinian politician ;)
>>>
>>> Maybe it's a good thing we don't have a moderator. We can now read both Ray's and Marc's post. And I can state that Barenboim is a great musician (albeit not a great pianist) with an impressive track record and more common sense than most politicians, Israeli or Palestinian.
>>>
>>> Henk
>> There is nothing wrong with Ray's post !
>
> There is also nothing wrong with Marc's post. He is free to post whatever he wants on RMCR.
> Like you, I find it obvious that Ray should mention Barenboim's farewell. He is one of the giants in the world of classical music.
> That some hate him for being an advocate of reconciliation and peace is indicative of these times.
>
> Henk

No one hates him for advocating reconciliation and peace. One could characterize his politics as advocating existential Israeli concessions to the Palestinians. It has nothing to do with hate.

On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 12:08:35 AM UTC-6, Oscar wrote:
> Wow! No one saw fit to reply to Mr. Hall's post? This is big news.

I hope Barenboim can find the balance he need to improve his health and continue with the artistic activities he wishes, whether on piano or or conducting.

My stronger reaction is a hope that everyone sees this as the best place for Thielemann to settle, mostly because he did a very successful Bruckner 8 here in Chicago and there was press suggesting at least one player thought he would make a great successor to Muti. I'm hoping that was just a favor done for the guest conductor. Almost no conductor candidate out there could appeal to me less for their interpretive habits. Nearly anyone I could name would make me happier, even, heaven forbid, Dudamel.

> No one hates him for advocating reconciliation and peace. One could characterize his politics as advocating existential Israeli concessions to the Palestinians. It has nothing to do with hate.

You may be right. The actual situation looks promising. The West Bank is up for grabs, no matter what Jordan and the UN say. Materially, Israel has nothing to gain from peace and much to lose.

Henk

Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 19:16:53 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 4:28:09 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:

> Boringboim conducted the worst La Mer I ever heard, in a
> venue that was perfect in every respect:
>
> https://embassies.gov.il/london/culture/IsraeliCulture/Music/Pages/The-Roman-Theater-of-Caesarea.aspx

In a confrontation with nature (La Mer versus the sea at Caesarea) art cannot survive. Even the greatest version of Liszt's Orage eclipses in a real thunderstorm.

I'm not a great fan of Barenboim but haven't yet heard a musician who handles climaxes often as well as he does, even as a solo pianist. It's something youngsters like Makela don't seem to have mastered yet.

Henk

On 1/8/2023 3:56 PM, HT wrote:
>> No one hates him for advocating reconciliation and peace. One could characterize his politics as advocating existential Israeli concessions to the Palestinians. It has nothing to do with hate.
>
> You may be right. The actual situation looks promising. The West Bank is up for grabs, no matter what Jordan and the UN say. Materially, Israel has nothing to gain from peace and much to lose.
>
> Henk

I don't think I care for your usage of "peace" here. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean. It sounds like you mean a Palestinian State in most of the West Bank (the major Israeli "settlements" are never going away under any circumstances). The Left (including the Israeli Left) is hypnotized or brainwashed or something into thinking that all Israel has to do vacate the WB and peace will reign. I can't even imagine how anyone could think that. Don't they know what the Palestinians themselves say their objectives are ("From the river to the sea"). Is there any reason to doubt them? I am not saying this from the perspective of one who thinks Israel is historically or biblically all of the WB. I am saying this as if I am an Israeli leader whose charge is to minimize the number of dead Israelis.

On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 1:11:10 AM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
> From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:
>
> << [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.
>
> He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”
>
> In an interview with the Guardian in 2000, an incandescent Barenboim said politicians who backed the merger were carrying out nothing less than a “western takeover” of the Staatsoper, one of east Germany’s most valuable cultural assets, in the same way western Germans had taken over companies, universities and almost every other aspect of the former German Democratic Republic. In the end he won the fight. >>
>
> Amen.
Wasn't DB infamous for leading the IP in a piece by Wagner against their wishes?

On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 1:33:38 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> The Left (including the Israeli Left) is hypnotized or brainwashed or
> something into thinking that all Israel has to do vacate the WB and
> peace will reign. I can't even imagine how anyone could think that.

There is no single instance of multiple religions living peacefully
side by side within the boundaries of a single nation in Asia or in
the Middle East. Sectarian violence is wide spread from Egypt to
Lebanon to Syria to Iraq to Pakistan to India to Bangladesh to
Myanmar to Thailand to Malaysia to Indonesia. Separating the
Muslim from the Hindus in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh did
not remove sectarial conflicts nearly enough. Anyone claiming
with a straight face that Palestinian statehood would bring
peace to the Middle East is either deceitful or delusional.

dk

On 1/8/2023 4:44 PM, Norman Schwartz wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 1:11:10 AM UTC-5, Oscar wrote:
>> From The Guardian article cited in orig. post:
>>
>> << [Barenboim] also built a reputation as a staunch defender of culture in Germany, fighting politicians tooth and nail on many occasions – most notably opposing a threat to merge the Staatsoper in the east of Berlin with the Deutsche Oper in the west. Barenboim said the move would “not destroy the building … but the people inside”, as well as the Staatskapelle’s unique sound developed under its former artistic director Richard Strauss.
>>
>> He described that sound as being “based on a set of values that have gone slightly out of fashion today … of harmony [and] legato, over the values of brilliance … a more spiritual and less athletic way of playing.”
>>
>> In an interview with the Guardian in 2000, an incandescent Barenboim said politicians who backed the merger were carrying out nothing less than a “western takeover” of the Staatsoper, one of east Germany’s most valuable cultural assets, in the same way western Germans had taken over companies, universities and almost every other aspect of the former German Democratic Republic. In the end he won the fight. >>
>>
>> Amen.
> Wasn't DB infamous for leading the IP in a piece by Wagner against their wishes?

Yes. The question is not whether Wagner should be played in public concerts in Israel. Reasonable people can disagree about that. The problem is the Barenboim agreed not to play Wagner at a public concert and did anyway. He gave people who would be offended the opportunity to leave the concert hall before they played. Since then I am unable to think of him as anything other than an an arrogant asshole.

On 1/8/2023 5:33 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 1:33:38 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> The Left (including the Israeli Left) is hypnotized or brainwashed or
>> something into thinking that all Israel has to do vacate the WB and
>> peace will reign. I can't even imagine how anyone could think that.
>
> There is no single instance of multiple religions living peacefully
> side by side within the boundaries of a single nation in Asia or in
> the Middle East. Sectarian violence is wide spread from Egypt to
> Lebanon to Syria to Iraq to Pakistan to India to Bangladesh to
> Myanmar to Thailand to Malaysia to Indonesia. Separating the
> Muslim from the Hindus in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh did
> not remove sectarial conflicts nearly enough. Anyone claiming
> with a straight face that Palestinian statehood would bring
> peace to the Middle East is either deceitful or delusional.
>
> dk

I am not disagreeing, though a probably naive part of me hopes that in some number of generations a Palestinian leadership will emerge that would actually want a peaceful two-state solution. This would be evidenced by a leadership that doesn't support terrorism and doesn't teach school children that Jews are vermin. I've said before if that happened the Israeli electorate would support a Palestinian state and it would be implemented regardless of right wing opposition. In the mean time the status quo is the best that can be hoped for, I think. I have no idea what would happen if Israel annexes the settlements or at least extends Israeli jurisdiction (not military) to them. Not sure what the effective difference would be. I have also said before that the solution I think makes the most sense is Jordanian-Palestinian confederation. More than half the population of Jordan is Palestinian.

On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 1:21:00 PM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
> Op zondag 8 januari 2023 om 19:16:53 UTC+1 schreef dan....@gmail.com:
> > On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 4:28:09 AM UTC-8, hvt...@xs4all.nl wrote:
>
> > Boringboim conducted the worst La Mer I ever heard, in a
> > venue that was perfect in every respect:
> >
> > https://embassies.gov.il/london/culture/IsraeliCulture/Music/Pages/The-Roman-Theater-of-Caesarea.aspx
> In a confrontation with nature (La Mer versus the sea at Caesarea) art cannot survive. Even the greatest version of Liszt's Orage eclipses in a real thunderstorm.
>
> I'm not a great fan of Barenboim but haven't yet heard a musician who handles climaxes often as well as he does, even as a solo pianist. It's something youngsters like Makela don't seem to have mastered yet.
>
> Henk

One of my favorite Y. uploads (and not for the climaxes):

"César Franck - Nocturne pour Contralto et Orchestre - Christa Ludwig, Daniel Barenboim 1976"