American Jewry's Stunted Sons - an essay by Ruth R. Wisse, professor emerita at Harvard

"We know that in the 19th century, as ideas of Enlightenment began to take hold, many lost faith in the Jewish way of life. The forces that claimed to represent progress—in science and technology, arts and education, political and social thought—persuaded many Jews that other cultures were more advanced than their own."

"As one of the most talented writers of his generation, Philip Roth defined the American Jewish male as the never-to-become-a Jewish-father."

Here comes the stunted Jew, a la Dan (who told me that Netanyahu is "made out of the same clothes" as Putin):

"Joshua Cohen has just been awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his novel The Netanyahus, which trivializes the most consequential family in recent Jewish history—the father a remarkable historian and sons who exemplify Jewish leadership against staggering odds. Cohen demonstrates his cleverness and literary talent, and justly defends his artistic right to reimagine these men any way he chooses. But that is precisely the point: this is how he uses his imagination—by clownishly describing the senior Netanyahu with his big toe poking through the hole in his sock; by portraying Yoni, leader of the raid on Entebbe, and Bibi, the longest-serving Israeli prime minister, as uncivilized bratty kids. What fun to portray an Israeli family of Churchillian stature from a debased American perspective! Whatever Cohen thought he was doing through his reductionism, he shows what a liability we have become to the Jewish state, cheapening ourselves to please the worst in America rather than affirming the greatness our people has shown."

Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?

Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2023 um 06:56:40 UTC+1:
> American Jewry's Stunted Sons - an essay by Ruth R. Wisse, professor emerita at Harvard
>
> "We know that in the 19th century, as ideas of Enlightenment began to take hold, many lost faith in the Jewish way of life. The forces that claimed to represent progress—in science and technology, arts and education, political and social thought—persuaded many Jews that other cultures were more advanced than their own."
>
> "As one of the most talented writers of his generation, Philip Roth defined the American Jewish male as the never-to-become-a Jewish-father."
>
> Here comes the stunted Jew, a la Dan (who told me that Netanyahu is "made out of the same clothes" as Putin):
>
> "Joshua Cohen has just been awarded the Pulitzer Prize for his novel The Netanyahus, which trivializes the most consequential family in recent Jewish history—the father a remarkable historian and sons who exemplify Jewish leadership against staggering odds. Cohen demonstrates his cleverness and literary talent, and justly defends his artistic right to reimagine these men any way he chooses. But that is precisely the point: this is how he uses his imagination—by clownishly describing the senior Netanyahu with his big toe poking through the hole in his sock; by portraying Yoni, leader of the raid on Entebbe, and Bibi, the longest-serving Israeli prime minister, as uncivilized bratty kids. What fun to portray an Israeli family of Churchillian stature from a debased American perspective! Whatever Cohen thought he was doing through his reductionism, he shows what a liability we have become to the Jewish state, cheapening ourselves to please the worst in America rather than affirming the greatness our people has shown."
>
> Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?

https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:56:40 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?

What an absurd notion. I am Israeli and very
prooud of it. This does not mean one has to
accept Netanyahu as PM. Check this:

https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/columnist/354963/80000-israelis-march-against-arrogance

As for the future, please stay focused on
German philosopher and composers. You
don't understand them either, however it
is much harder for the audience to tell.

dk

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>
> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/

If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
great universities in Israel? Why does she teach
Yiddish rather than Hebrew? Why does she list
her nationality as Canadian rather than Israeli?

If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?

I ask the question ....

dk

On 1/15/2023 1:57 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:56:40 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>
>> Dan, tell me, why do you hate Israel so much?
>
> What an absurd notion. I am Israeli and very
> prooud of it. This does not mean one has to
> accept Netanyahu as PM. Check this:
>
> https://jewishjournal.com/commentary/columnist/354963/80000-israelis-march-against-arrogance
>

Doesn't load. Went to the Jewish Journal web site and couldn't find the article.

On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>
>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>
> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> great universities in Israel?

I don't see why one could assume that teaching at an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish people than at Harvard.

Why does she teach
> Yiddish rather than Hebrew?

Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she speaks fluent Hebrew).

Why does she list
> her nationality as Canadian rather than Israeli?
>

She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a while, but I don't know how long.

> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>
> I ask the question ....
>
> dk

I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here, anyone can talk about anything.

Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be automatically hated by millions on the Left.

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >>
> >> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
> >
> > If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> > of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> > she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> > great universities in Israel?
>
> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
> people than at Harvard.

This is not about doing something that is "better for
the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
have no standing.

> > Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
> speaks fluent Hebrew).

Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.

> > Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
> > rather than Israeli?
>
> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
> while, but I don't know how long.

We all know this. It was a retorical question.

> > If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> > Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> > he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
> >
> > I ask the question ....
>
> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
> anyone can talk about anything.

The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
Of course she can speak and write about anything.
The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
> automatically hated by millions on the Left.

Non sequitur.

dk

I REALLY don't want to see threads here glorifying Netanyahu after his past record and current policies.

But it seems there's no way of stopping this ultra-right stuff from appearing.

On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>
>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>> great universities in Israel?
>>
>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>> people than at Harvard.
>
> This is not about doing something that is "better for
> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
> have no standing.
>
>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>
> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>
>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>> rather than Israeli?
>>
>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>> while, but I don't know how long.
>
> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>
>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>
>>> I ask the question ....
>>
>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>> anyone can talk about anything.
>
> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>
>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>
> Non sequitur.
>
> dk

In my view a person has standing if the speak sense. Nothing more.

On 1/15/2023 4:25 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> I REALLY don't want to see threads here glorifying Netanyahu after his past record and current policies.
>
> But it seems there's no way of stopping this ultra-right stuff from appearing.

Thanks for sharing.

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
> >>>
> >>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> >>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> >>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> >>> great universities in Israel?
> >>
> >> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
> >> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
> >> people than at Harvard.
> >
> > This is not about doing something that is "better for
> > the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
> > other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
> > my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
> > have no standing.
> >
> >>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
> >> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
> >> speaks fluent Hebrew).
> >
> > Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
> > Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
> > the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
> >
> >>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
> >>> rather than Israeli?
> >>
> >> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
> >> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
> >> while, but I don't know how long.
> >
> > We all know this. It was a retorical question.
> >
> >>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> >>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> >>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
> >>>
> >>> I ask the question ....
> >>
> >> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
> >> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
> >> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
> >> anyone can talk about anything.
> >
> > The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
> > Of course she can speak and write about anything.
> > The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
> >
> >> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
> >> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
> >
> > Non sequitur.
>
> In my view a person has standing
> if the speak sense. Nothing more.

Well, no! One person's sense can
be another person's non-sense.

"Standing" means the person is
"qualified" to speak about the
matter, regardless of what
they say.

Depending on the matter at
hand, "standing" may have
dimensions beyond mere
"knowledge" of the matter,
e.g. does the person have
"skin in the game", or does
the person meet ethical
and/or legal requirements.

dk

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:26:57 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
> > >>>
> > >>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> > >>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> > >>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> > >>> great universities in Israel?
> > >>
> > >> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
> > >> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
> > >> people than at Harvard.
> > >
> > > This is not about doing something that is "better for
> > > the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
> > > other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
> > > my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
> > > have no standing.
> > >
> > >>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
> > >> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
> > >> speaks fluent Hebrew).
> > >
> > > Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
> > > Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
> > > the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
> > >
> > >>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
> > >>> rather than Israeli?
> > >>
> > >> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
> > >> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
> > >> while, but I don't know how long.
> > >
> > > We all know this. It was a retorical question.
> > >
> > >>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> > >>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> > >>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
> > >>>
> > >>> I ask the question ....
> > >>
> > >> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
> > >> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
> > >> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
> > >> anyone can talk about anything.
> > >
> > > The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
> > > Of course she can speak and write about anything.
> > > The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
> > >
> > >> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
> > >> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
> > >
> > > Non sequitur.
> >
> > In my view a person has standing
> > if the speak sense. Nothing more.
> Well, no! One person's sense can
> be another person's non-sense.
>
> "Standing" means the person is
> "qualified" to speak about the
> matter, regardless of what
> they say.
>
> Depending on the matter at
> hand, "standing" may have
> dimensions beyond mere
> "knowledge" of the matter,
> e.g. does the person have
> "skin in the game", or does
> the person meet ethical
> and/or legal requirements.
>
> dk
FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."

On 1/15/2023 5:08 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:26:57 PM UTC-6, dan....@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>>
>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>>> have no standing.
>>>>
>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>>
>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>>
>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>>
>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>>
>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>>
>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>>
>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>>
>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>>
>>>> Non sequitur.
>>>
>>> In my view a person has standing
>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>> Well, no! One person's sense can
>> be another person's non-sense.
>>
>> "Standing" means the person is
>> "qualified" to speak about the
>> matter, regardless of what
>> they say.
>>
>> Depending on the matter at
>> hand, "standing" may have
>> dimensions beyond mere
>> "knowledge" of the matter,
>> e.g. does the person have
>> "skin in the game", or does
>> the person meet ethical
>> and/or legal requirements.
..>>
>> dk
> FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish >state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." >In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."

All-or-nothing bullshit.

> FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."

One could maintain as well that only Diaspora Judaism is full Judaism. In the Diaspora Judaism has become what it is - in all its forms.

Henk

On 1/15/2023 5:35 PM, HT wrote:
>> FWIW the great Israeli novelist A.B. Yehoshua said: "A full Jewish life could only be had in the Jewish state." He claimed that Jews elsewhere were only "playing with Judaism. Diaspora Judaism is masturbation." In Israel, he said, it is "the real thing."
>
> One could maintain as well that only Diaspora Judaism is full Judaism. In the Diaspora Judaism has become what it is - in all its forms.
>
> Henk

This statement makes sense only if one accepts a definition that alternative forms of "Judaism," are in fact, Judaism. This is separate from the question of who is a Jew. From the Orthodox point of view, a Jew is a person whose mother was Jewish or who had a conversion under the supervision of an Orthodox rabbi. It has zero to do with if or how one expresses his Judaism. It is totally consistent for the Orthodox to believe that the Reform or Reconstructionist movements are invalid expressions of Judaism or a different religion altogether, while at the same time recognizing many of the members of those movements as "valid" Jews. of course those alternative movements have there own definitions of what a Jew is. It's not a question of what "is," it's a question of what you believe or choose to believe.

On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>
>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>
>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>
>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>> have no standing.
>>>
>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>
>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>
>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>
>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>
>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>
>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>
>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>
>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>
>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>
>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>
>>> Non sequitur.
>>
>> In my view a person has standing
>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>
> Well, no! One person's sense can
> be another person's non-sense.
>
> "Standing" means the person is
> "qualified" to speak about the
> matter, regardless of what
> they say.
>
> Depending on the matter at
> hand, "standing" may have
> dimensions beyond mere
> "knowledge" of the matter,
> e.g. does the person have
> "skin in the game", or does
> the person meet ethical
> and/or legal requirements.
>
> dk

Again with the all-or-nothing attitude. Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel has the most "skin in the game." This is manifested by their right to vote in Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew, religious or not, is a potential Israel and may well have relatives who are Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf therefore has some skin in the game, if not as much. It makes no sense to say the latter's views about Israel or it's policies have no validity.

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> >>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> >>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> >>>>> great universities in Israel?
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
> >>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
> >>>> people than at Harvard.
> >>>
> >>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
> >>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
> >>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
> >>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
> >>> have no standing.
> >>>
> >>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
> >>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
> >>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
> >>>
> >>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
> >>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
> >>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
> >>>
> >>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
> >>>>> rather than Israeli?
> >>>>
> >>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
> >>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
> >>>> while, but I don't know how long.
> >>>
> >>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
> >>>
> >>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> >>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> >>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I ask the question ....
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
> >>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
> >>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
> >>>> anyone can talk about anything.
> >>>
> >>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
> >>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
> >>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
> >>>
> >>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
> >>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
> >>>
> >>> Non sequitur.
> >>
> >> In my view a person has standing
> >> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
> >
> > Well, no! One person's sense can
> > be another person's non-sense.
> >
> > "Standing" means the person is
> > "qualified" to speak about the
> > matter, regardless of what
> > they say.
> >
> > Depending on the matter at
> > hand, "standing" may have
> > dimensions beyond mere
> > "knowledge" of the matter,
> > e.g. does the person have
> > "skin in the game", or does
> > the person meet ethical
> > and/or legal requirements.
>
> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
> has the most "skin in the game." This
> is manifested by their right to vote in
> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
> religious or not, is a potential Israel
> and may well have relatives who are
> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
> therefore has some skin in the game,
> if not as much. It makes no sense to
> say the latter's views about Israel or
> it's policies have no validity.

The balance of opinion in Israel is
that those who do not live there
have no right to vote.

This includes citizens who live or
travel temporarily out of Israel,
and cannot vote while being
out of the country. The only
exceptions are for maritime
and airline crews, and for
government employees
posted overseas, e.g.
embassy or consular
staff.

While there is certainly a
difference between voting
and merely voicing one's
opinions, most Israelis
tend to subscribe to the
view that one's opinions
do not matter if they do
not live there.

dk

On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:56:40 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
> American Jewry's Stunted Sons - an essay by Ruth R. Wisse, professor emerita at Harvard
>

An appreciation of Prof. Wisse:

https://missouriintelligencer.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/the-closing-of-the-collegiate-mind-by-ruth-r-wisse/

Her views on the origin of the Yiddish dialect are as well worth reading about as they are rather unconventional.

On 1/15/2023 6:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>>>> have no standing.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>>>
>>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>>>
>>>>> Non sequitur.
>>>>
>>>> In my view a person has standing
>>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>>>
>>> Well, no! One person's sense can
>>> be another person's non-sense.
>>>
>>> "Standing" means the person is
>>> "qualified" to speak about the
>>> matter, regardless of what
>>> they say.
>>>
>>> Depending on the matter at
>>> hand, "standing" may have
>>> dimensions beyond mere
>>> "knowledge" of the matter,
>>> e.g. does the person have
>>> "skin in the game", or does
>>> the person meet ethical
>>> and/or legal requirements.
>>
>> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
>> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
>> has the most "skin in the game." This
>> is manifested by their right to vote in
>> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
>> religious or not, is a potential Israel
>> and may well have relatives who are
>> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
>> therefore has some skin in the game,
>> if not as much. It makes no sense to
>> say the latter's views about Israel or
>> it's policies have no validity.
>
> The balance of opinion in Israel is
> that those who do not live there
> have no right to vote.
>
> This includes citizens who live or
> travel temporarily out of Israel,
> and cannot vote while being
> out of the country. The only
> exceptions are for maritime
> and airline crews, and for
> government employees
> posted overseas, e.g.
> embassy or consular
> staff.
>
> While there is certainly a
> difference between voting
> and merely voicing one's
> opinions, most Israelis
> tend to subscribe to the
> view that one's opinions
> do not matter if they do
> not live there.
>
> dk

As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The vast majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been legislation proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess it has no chance to pass under a conservative government, but that's just a guess.

On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 5:25:13 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 1/15/2023 6:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
> >>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> >>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
> >>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
> >>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
> >>>>>> people than at Harvard.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
> >>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
> >>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
> >>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
> >>>>> have no standing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
> >>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
> >>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
> >>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
> >>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
> >>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
> >>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
> >>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
> >>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
> >>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I ask the question ....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
> >>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
> >>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
> >>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
> >>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
> >>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
> >>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Non sequitur.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my view a person has standing
> >>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
> >>>
> >>> Well, no! One person's sense can
> >>> be another person's non-sense.
> >>>
> >>> "Standing" means the person is
> >>> "qualified" to speak about the
> >>> matter, regardless of what
> >>> they say.
> >>>
> >>> Depending on the matter at
> >>> hand, "standing" may have
> >>> dimensions beyond mere
> >>> "knowledge" of the matter,
> >>> e.g. does the person have
> >>> "skin in the game", or does
> >>> the person meet ethical
> >>> and/or legal requirements.
> >>
> >> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
> >> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
> >> has the most "skin in the game." This
> >> is manifested by their right to vote in
> >> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
> >> religious or not, is a potential Israel
> >> and may well have relatives who are
> >> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
> >> therefore has some skin in the game,
> >> if not as much. It makes no sense to
> >> say the latter's views about Israel or
> >> it's policies have no validity.
> >
> > The balance of opinion in Israel is
> > that those who do not live there
> > have no right to vote.
> >
> > This includes citizens who live or
> > travel temporarily out of Israel,
> > and cannot vote while being
> > out of the country. The only
> > exceptions are for maritime
> > and airline crews, and for
> > government employees
> > posted overseas, e.g.
> > embassy or consular
> > staff.
> >
> > While there is certainly a
> > difference between voting
> > and merely voicing one's
> > opinions, most Israelis
> > tend to subscribe to the
> > view that one's opinions
> > do not matter if they do
> > not live there.
> >
> > dk
> As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The vast majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been legislation proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess it has no chance to pass under a conservative government, but that's just a guess.

I've heard it said that Israelis are not Jews but Israelis.

On 1/15/2023 9:41 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 5:25:13 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 1/15/2023 6:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>>>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>>>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>>>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>>>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>>>>>> have no standing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>>>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>>>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>>>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>>>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Non sequitur.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my view a person has standing
>>>>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, no! One person's sense can
>>>>> be another person's non-sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Standing" means the person is
>>>>> "qualified" to speak about the
>>>>> matter, regardless of what
>>>>> they say.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depending on the matter at
>>>>> hand, "standing" may have
>>>>> dimensions beyond mere
>>>>> "knowledge" of the matter,
>>>>> e.g. does the person have
>>>>> "skin in the game", or does
>>>>> the person meet ethical
>>>>> and/or legal requirements.
>>>>
>>>> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
>>>> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
>>>> has the most "skin in the game." This
>>>> is manifested by their right to vote in
>>>> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
>>>> religious or not, is a potential Israel
>>>> and may well have relatives who are
>>>> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
>>>> therefore has some skin in the game,
>>>> if not as much. It makes no sense to
>>>> say the latter's views about Israel or
>>>> it's policies have no validity.
>>>
>>> The balance of opinion in Israel is
>>> that those who do not live there
>>> have no right to vote.
>>>
>>> This includes citizens who live or
>>> travel temporarily out of Israel,
>>> and cannot vote while being
>>> out of the country. The only
>>> exceptions are for maritime
>>> and airline crews, and for
>>> government employees
>>> posted overseas, e.g.
>>> embassy or consular
>>> staff.
>>>
>>> While there is certainly a
>>> difference between voting
>>> and merely voicing one's
>>> opinions, most Israelis
>>> tend to subscribe to the
>>> view that one's opinions
>>> do not matter if they do
>>> not live there.
>>>
>>> dk
>> As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The vast majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been legislation proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess it has no chance to pass under a conservative government, but that's just a guess.
>
> I've heard it said that Israelis are not Jews but Israelis.

One would have know what was meant by "Jews" to make sense of this. This kind of statement is meaningless without context. Did the person who said it have any knowledge of Israel? Was he Jewish?

The population of Israel is as diverse as can be imagined. White, Black, Asian, ultra orthodox, not so ultra orthodox, secular, sephardic, ashkenaz. It is true that a minority of Israelis are Orthodox. But so are a minority of Jews outside Israel. So I have know idea what kind of sense the statement makes.

On 1/15/2023 6:14 PM, MickeyBoy wrote:
> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:56:40 PM UTC-6, Marc S wrote:
>> American Jewry's Stunted Sons - an essay by Ruth R. Wisse, professor emerita at Harvard
>>
>
> An appreciation of Prof. Wisse:
>
> https://missouriintelligencer.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/the-closing-of-the-collegiate-mind-by-ruth-r-wisse/
>
> Her views on the origin of the Yiddish dialect are as well worth reading about as they are rather unconventional.
>
>

I assume you mean the Yiddish language?

Op 2023-01-16 om 05:43 schreef Frank Berger:
> On 1/15/2023 9:41 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 5:25:13 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> On 1/15/2023 6:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>>>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>>>>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>>>>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>>>>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>>>>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>>>>>>> have no standing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>>>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>>>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>>>>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>>>>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>>>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>>>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>>>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>>>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>>>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>>>>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>>>>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>>>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Non sequitur.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my view a person has standing
>>>>>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, no! One person's sense can
>>>>>> be another person's non-sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Standing" means the person is
>>>>>> "qualified" to speak about the
>>>>>> matter, regardless of what
>>>>>> they say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depending on the matter at
>>>>>> hand, "standing" may have
>>>>>> dimensions beyond mere
>>>>>> "knowledge" of the matter,
>>>>>> e.g. does the person have
>>>>>> "skin in the game", or does
>>>>>> the person meet ethical
>>>>>> and/or legal requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
>>>>> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
>>>>> has the most "skin in the game." This
>>>>> is manifested by their right to vote in
>>>>> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
>>>>> religious or not, is a potential Israel
>>>>> and may well have relatives who are
>>>>> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
>>>>> therefore has some skin in the game,
>>>>> if not as much. It makes no sense to
>>>>> say the latter's views about Israel or
>>>>> it's policies have no validity.
>>>>
>>>> The balance of opinion in Israel is
>>>> that those who do not live there
>>>> have no right to vote.
>>>>
>>>> This includes citizens who live or
>>>> travel temporarily out of Israel,
>>>> and cannot vote while being
>>>> out of the country. The only
>>>> exceptions are for maritime
>>>> and airline crews, and for
>>>> government employees
>>>> posted overseas, e.g.
>>>> embassy or consular
>>>> staff.
>>>>
>>>> While there is certainly a
>>>> difference between voting
>>>> and merely voicing one's
>>>> opinions, most Israelis
>>>> tend to subscribe to the
>>>> view that one's opinions
>>>> do not matter if they do
>>>> not live there.
>>>>
>>>> dk
>>> As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The vast
>>> majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been legislation
>>> proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess it has no chance
>>> to pass under a conservative government, but that's just a guess.
>>
>> I've heard it said that Israelis are not Jews but Israelis.
>
> One would have know what was meant by "Jews" to make sense of this.
> This kind of statement is meaningless without context.  Did the person
> who said it have any knowledge of Israel?  Was he Jewish?
>
> The population of Israel is as diverse as can be imagined. White, Black,
> Asian, ultra orthodox, not so ultra orthodox, secular, sephardic,
> ashkenaz.

And large, small, fat, lean, smart, dumb?

On 1/14/23 11:34 PM, Frank Berger wrote:

>
> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be automatically hated by
> millions on the Left.
>
>
>
>
Bingo, Frank. To those millions, that is her real sin.

Bob Harper

On 1/16/2023 1:02 PM, Gerard wrote:
> Op 2023-01-16 om 05:43 schreef Frank Berger:
>> On 1/15/2023 9:41 PM, Lawrence Kart wrote:
>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 5:25:13 PM UTC-6, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>> On 1/15/2023 6:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 3:04:17 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 4:26 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, January 15, 2023 at 6:17:11 AM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 3:23 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 11:34:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/15/2023 2:07 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, January 14, 2023 at 9:57:22 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/arts-culture/2022/06/american-jewrys-stunted-sons/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If Mme Wisse is so concerned about the future
>>>>>>>>>>> of Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>>>> she teach at Harvard, rather than at any of the
>>>>>>>>>>> great universities in Israel?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't see why one could assume that teaching at
>>>>>>>>>> an Israeli institution would be better for the Jewish
>>>>>>>>>> people than at Harvard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is not about doing something that is "better for
>>>>>>>>> the Jews". It is about earning standing to lecture
>>>>>>>>> other Jews about what it means to be Jewish. In
>>>>>>>>> my view, Jews who choose to live outside Israel
>>>>>>>>> have no standing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does she teach Yiddish rather than Hebrew?
>>>>>>>>>> Because she is Yiddish scholar (although she
>>>>>>>>>> speaks fluent Hebrew).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Clearly teaching the language of the Ashkenazy
>>>>>>>>> Jewish diaspora does nothing for the future of
>>>>>>>>> the Jewish people as a nation and as a culture.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why does she list her nationality as Canadian
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than Israeli?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She grew up in Montreal and is Canadian. AFAIK
>>>>>>>>>> she is not Israeli. I believe she lived in Israel for a
>>>>>>>>>> while, but I don't know how long.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We all know this. It was a retorical question.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If Marc S. is so concerned about the future of
>>>>>>>>>>> Judaism and of the Jewish people, why does
>>>>>>>>>>> he not move to Israel and convert to Judaism?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I ask the question ....
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't get your point. Is she not qualified to speak
>>>>>>>>>> about Israeli issues because she is not Israeli and/or
>>>>>>>>>> doesn't live there? As you so frequently say here,
>>>>>>>>>> anyone can talk about anything.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The matter at hand is not freedom of speech per se.
>>>>>>>>> Of course she can speak and write about anything.
>>>>>>>>> The issue is her standing. She has none in my eyes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously, as a conservative she is going to be
>>>>>>>>>> automatically hated by millions on the Left.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Non sequitur.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my view a person has standing
>>>>>>>> if the speak sense. Nothing more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, no! One person's sense can
>>>>>>> be another person's non-sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Standing" means the person is
>>>>>>> "qualified" to speak about the
>>>>>>> matter, regardless of what
>>>>>>> they say.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depending on the matter at
>>>>>>> hand, "standing" may have
>>>>>>> dimensions beyond mere
>>>>>>> "knowledge" of the matter,
>>>>>>> e.g. does the person have
>>>>>>> "skin in the game", or does
>>>>>>> the person meet ethical
>>>>>>> and/or legal requirements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again with the all-or-nothing attitude.
>>>>>> Sure, an Israeli citizen living in Israel
>>>>>> has the most "skin in the game." This
>>>>>> is manifested by their right to vote in
>>>>>> Israeli elections. But a disapora Jew,
>>>>>> religious or not, is a potential Israel
>>>>>> and may well have relatives who are
>>>>>> Israeli and/or who live in Israel anf
>>>>>> therefore has some skin in the game,
>>>>>> if not as much. It makes no sense to
>>>>>> say the latter's views about Israel or
>>>>>> it's policies have no validity.
>>>>>
>>>>> The balance of opinion in Israel is
>>>>> that those who do not live there
>>>>> have no right to vote.
>>>>>
>>>>> This includes citizens who live or
>>>>> travel temporarily out of Israel,
>>>>> and cannot vote while being
>>>>> out of the country. The only
>>>>> exceptions are for maritime
>>>>> and airline crews, and for
>>>>> government employees
>>>>> posted overseas, e.g.
>>>>> embassy or consular
>>>>> staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> While there is certainly a
>>>>> difference between voting
>>>>> and merely voicing one's
>>>>> opinions, most Israelis
>>>>> tend to subscribe to the
>>>>> view that one's opinions
>>>>> do not matter if they do
>>>>> not live there.
>>>>>
>>>>> dk
>>>> As I said, an all-or-nothing view on this makes no sense. The vast majority of countries have absentee voting. The has been legislation proposed in Israel to provide for it. I would guess it has no chance to pass under a conservative government, but that's just a guess.
>>>
>>> I've heard it said that Israelis are not Jews but Israelis.
>>
>> One would have know what was meant by "Jews" to make sense of this. This kind of statement is meaningless without context.  Did the person who said it have any knowledge of Israel?  Was he Jewish?
>>
>> The population of Israel is as diverse as can be imagined. White, Black, Asian, ultra orthodox, not so ultra orthodox, secular, sephardic, ashkenaz.
>
> And large, small, fat, lean, smart, dumb?
>

Missing the point, as always, Gerard.