Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.

Why no major Dutch composers?

Op donderdag 26 januari 2023 om 14:20:49 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
>
> Why no major Dutch composers?

Perhaps for the same reason why our folk music is nothing special. According to Wiki:

"Dutch folk music has been strongly influenced by music from surrounding and overseas countries such as the UK due to the Netherlands' historical position as a trading nation and its location on major rivers and the North Sea.. Characteristics therefore largely match those of folk music from Germany, France and England."

Henk

Louis Andriessen, recently deceased, is a major composer.

Sweelinck is.

Louis Andriessen, recently deceased, is a major composer.

Sweelinck is a major composer.

On 1/26/23 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
>
> Why no major Dutch composers?

If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a few but
it would take some browsing to see which were born in Dutch-speaking
areas. With the usual quibbling about who is a "major" composer, add
Obrecht, Clemens non Papa and Willaert to Sweelinck on the list.

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:32:50 AM UTC+11, MINe109 wrote:
> On 1/26/23 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> >
> > Why no major Dutch composers?
> If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a few but
> it would take some browsing to see which were born in Dutch-speaking
> areas. With the usual quibbling about who is a "major" composer, add
> Obrecht, Clemens non Papa and Willaert to Sweelinck on the list.

You have, of course, raised the issue of where exactly is Holland, given the complicated history of that part of the world? Similarly, what counts as Dutch-speaking? Do you include Frisian and Flemish speakers?

It may simplify matters if we limit the question to the area constituting the present Kingdom, plus what is now the Flemish half of Belgium? Perhaps it boils down to why there were no major Dutch composers during the Romantic period and after?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 1/26/23 12:04 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:32:50 AM UTC+11, MINe109 wrote:
>> On 1/26/23 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
>>>
>>> Why no major Dutch composers?
>> If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a
>> few but it would take some browsing to see which were born in
>> Dutch-speaking areas. With the usual quibbling about who is a
>> "major" composer, add Obrecht, Clemens non Papa and Willaert to
>> Sweelinck on the list.
>
> You have, of course, raised the issue of where exactly is Holland,
> given the complicated history of that part of the world? Similarly,
> what counts as Dutch-speaking? Do you include Frisian and Flemish
> speakers?

How about a language new to me? Wiki says Ockeghem grew up speaking Picard.

> It may simplify matters if we limit the question to the area
> constituting the present Kingdom, plus what is now the Flemish half
> of Belgium? Perhaps it boils down to why there were no major Dutch
> composers during the Romantic period and after?
https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/greatest-dutch-composers/

Other than Sweelinck and Andriessen, it's hard to call this list "major"
although most of the names are somewhat recognizable, ska band and film
composers excepted.

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-6, MINe109 wrote:
> On 1/26/23 12:04 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:32:50 AM UTC+11, MINe109 wrote:
> >> On 1/26/23 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> >>> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> >>>
> >>> Why no major Dutch composers?
> >> If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a
> >> few but it would take some browsing to see which were born in
> >> Dutch-speaking areas. With the usual quibbling about who is a
> >> "major" composer, add Obrecht, Clemens non Papa and Willaert to
> >> Sweelinck on the list.
> >
> > You have, of course, raised the issue of where exactly is Holland,
> > given the complicated history of that part of the world? Similarly,
> > what counts as Dutch-speaking? Do you include Frisian and Flemish
> > speakers?
> How about a language new to me? Wiki says Ockeghem grew up speaking Picard.
> > It may simplify matters if we limit the question to the area
> > constituting the present Kingdom, plus what is now the Flemish half
> > of Belgium? Perhaps it boils down to why there were no major Dutch
> > composers during the Romantic period and after?
> https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/greatest-dutch-composers/
>
> Other than Sweelinck and Andriessen, it's hard to call this list "major"
> although most of the names are somewhat recognizable, ska band and film
> composers excepted.

Willem Pjiper and Mathais Vermeulen are definitely worth checking out

In article <tqu9ve$18pve$1@dont-email.me>,
mINE109 <pianoforte109@yahoo.com> wrote:
>If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a
>few but it would take some browsing to see which were born in
>Dutch-speaking areas.

I'm no expert on what makes someone Dutch or not, but per the recent
_Hollandse Fragmenten_ album (2021), which surveys the earliest
surviving of what the performers/producers consider to be Dutch
music, nearly all pre-1400 music in Holland was destroyed. (That
leaves Thomas Fabri as "the earliest great Dutch composer" --
perhaps.)

https://outhere-music.com/en/albums/hollandse-fragmenten-early-dutch-polyphony

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
>
> Why no major Dutch composers?

What's all this, then?

For my purposes, Simeon ten Holt is absolutely a *major* 20th c. composer.

Maybe a stretch, but what about Willem Breuker?

Wim Mertens is Belgian, so set him aside, but see upthread for others to consider.

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 10:21:08 AM UTC-8, ljk...@aol.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-6, MINe109 wrote:
> > On 1/26/23 12:04 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:32:50 AM UTC+11, MINe109 wrote:
> > >> On 1/26/23 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > >>> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> > >>>
> > >>> Why no major Dutch composers?
> > >> If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a
> > >> few but it would take some browsing to see which were born in
> > >> Dutch-speaking areas. With the usual quibbling about who is a
> > >> "major" composer, add Obrecht, Clemens non Papa and Willaert to
> > >> Sweelinck on the list.
> > >
> > > You have, of course, raised the issue of where exactly is Holland,
> > > given the complicated history of that part of the world? Similarly,
> > > what counts as Dutch-speaking? Do you include Frisian and Flemish
> > > speakers?
> > How about a language new to me? Wiki says Ockeghem grew up speaking Picard.
> > > It may simplify matters if we limit the question to the area
> > > constituting the present Kingdom, plus what is now the Flemish half
> > > of Belgium? Perhaps it boils down to why there were no major Dutch
> > > composers during the Romantic period and after?
> > https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/greatest-dutch-composers/
> >
> > Other than Sweelinck and Andriessen, it's hard to call this list "major"
> > although most of the names are somewhat recognizable, ska band and film
> > composers excepted.
> Willem Pjiper and Mathais Vermeulen are definitely worth checking out

I do not know Vermeulen but agree re Pijper.

On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 09:14:51 UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> >
> > Why no major Dutch composers?
> What's all this, then?
>
> For my purposes, Simeon ten Holt is absolutely a *major* 20th c. composer.
>
> Maybe a stretch, but what about Willem Breuker?
>
> Wim Mertens is Belgian, so set him aside, but see upthread for others to consider.

Isn't Henk Badings a Dutch composer of note. He wrote several symphonies, violin concertos, electronica etc. Also accused of Nazi sympathies as he accepted a major post during the Nazi occupation.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 2:40:34 PM UTC-8, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 09:14:51 UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> > >
> > > Why no major Dutch composers?
> > What's all this, then?
> >
> > For my purposes, Simeon ten Holt is absolutely a *major* 20th c. composer.
> >
> > Maybe a stretch, but what about Willem Breuker?
> >
> > Wim Mertens is Belgian, so set him aside, but see upthread for others to consider.
> Isn't Henk Badings a Dutch composer of note. He wrote several symphonies, violin concertos, electronica etc. Also accused of Nazi sympathies as he accepted a major post during the Nazi occupation.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
Yes - Badings, like ten Holt, makes the list Andy linked, but he seemed ready to say none were major.

So perhaps we ask the OP how far down the line can one still be called major?

i'd say at least 200 - 250 but Andy may demur...

On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 22:59:49 UTC, number_six wrote:

> So perhaps we ask the OP how far down the line can one still be called major?
>
> i'd say at least 200 - 250 but Andy may demur...

I have absolutely no idea! I didn't know anybody on the list except Sweelinck, and that is in name only.

Pop over the border and you have Franck, and Denmark has Buxtehude and Nielsen. They are about.....

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 4:14:51 PM UTC-6, number_six wrote:
> On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> > Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> >
> > Why no major Dutch composers?
> What's all this, then?
>
> For my purposes, Simeon ten Holt is absolutely a *major* 20th c. composer..
>
> Maybe a stretch, but what about Willem Breuker?
>
> Wim Mertens is Belgian, so set him aside, but see upthread for others to consider.

This is a very enjoyable disc:

https://www.amazon.com/Flemish-Romantic-Music-Poot/dp/B0000045XV/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2P5DZ5AEU6I53&keywords=flemish+romantic+music&qid=1674778422&sprefix=flemish+romantic+music%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&smid=A1AIVRBZSN2D48&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyWUZWMEQzMzdDVlQ4JmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODAxNjkwMVFSWjU0MzM0MlM1SiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNjY5ODc2MzVXSDNDT1BGWFNWTiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU
or

https://www.discogs.com/release/9974792-BRT-Philharmonic-Orchestra-Brussels-Alexander-Rahbari-Flemish-Romantic-Music-Cheerful-Overture-Flemi

On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 11:40:34 PM UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Isn't Henk Badings a Dutch composer of note. He wrote several symphonies, violin concertos, electronica etc. Also accused of Nazi sympathies as he accepted a major post during the Nazi occupation.
>
I don't thinkBadings harbored any Nazi sympathies; he just wanted to keep the The Hague Conservatory open, and accepted the director job.

My GF plays several Badings pieces.

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 5:15:54 AM UTC+11, MINe109 wrote:
> On 1/26/23 12:04 PM, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:32:50 AM UTC+11, MINe109 wrote:
> >> On 1/26/23 7:20 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> >>> Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> >>>
> >>> Why no major Dutch composers?
> >> If you include "Franco-Flemish" and Burgundian there are quite a
> >> few but it would take some browsing to see which were born in
> >> Dutch-speaking areas. With the usual quibbling about who is a
> >> "major" composer, add Obrecht, Clemens non Papa and Willaert to
> >> Sweelinck on the list.
> >
> > You have, of course, raised the issue of where exactly is Holland,
> > given the complicated history of that part of the world? Similarly,
> > what counts as Dutch-speaking? Do you include Frisian and Flemish
> > speakers?
> How about a language new to me? Wiki says Ockeghem grew up speaking Picard.
> > It may simplify matters if we limit the question to the area
> > constituting the present Kingdom, plus what is now the Flemish half
> > of Belgium? Perhaps it boils down to why there were no major Dutch
> > composers during the Romantic period and after?
> https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/greatest-dutch-composers/
>
> Other than Sweelinck and Andriessen, it's hard to call this list "major"
> although most of the names are somewhat recognizable, ska band and film
> composers excepted.

Picard is a Romance dialect formerly originating in ... Picardy (or Picardie), of blooming roses fame. A working-class subdialect of Picard, called Schtimi, is still spoken along the Franco-Belgian border. Just follow the trail of moules-et-frites to hear it spoken. On the Belgian side of the border there is a movement to revive Wallon, the dialect of Wallonia, the French-speaking half of Belgium.

A Dutch colleague of mine in Australia once told me how odd and how confusing it was for her to be referred to as 'Dutch'. To her, Dutch means 'German' (Deutsch). Meanwhile much of the western parts of Germany spoke Platdutsch (Low German) as did Johannes Brahms growing up in Hamburg.

The use of 'standard' languages seems to be very much a twentieth-century phenomenon: even as late as 1914, Breton conscripts in the French army had learnt Paris French as a second language, with which many of the peasants remained unfamiliar. Then there's Baron Ochs ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 9:40:34 AM UTC+11, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, 27 January 2023 at 09:14:51 UTC+11, number_six wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 26, 2023 at 5:20:49 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > Plenty of genius Dutch painters and a very musical nation.
> > >
> > > Why no major Dutch composers?
> > What's all this, then?
> >
> > For my purposes, Simeon ten Holt is absolutely a *major* 20th c. composer.
> >
> > Maybe a stretch, but what about Willem Breuker?
> >
> > Wim Mertens is Belgian, so set him aside, but see upthread for others to consider.
> Isn't Henk Badings a Dutch composer of note. He wrote several symphonies, violin concertos, electronica etc. Also accused of Nazi sympathies as he accepted a major post during the Nazi occupation.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

We used to get a fair amount of Badings in Melbourne when Willem Van Otterloo was in charge of the Melbourne Symphony Orchestra. Sadly, I never heard any.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 10:30:42 AM UTC+11, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Thursday, 26 January 2023 at 22:59:49 UTC, number_six wrote:
>
> > So perhaps we ask the OP how far down the line can one still be called major?
> >
> > i'd say at least 200 - 250 but Andy may demur...
> I have absolutely no idea! I didn't know anybody on the list except Sweelinck, and that is in name only.
>
> Pop over the border and you have Franck, and Denmark has Buxtehude and Nielsen. They are about.....

Franck, like Georges Simenon, spent most of his career in Paris. Buxtehude, I believe, spent most of his career in Luebeck, now part of Germany. But then, one of my favourite questions is, "What was the capital of Germany in 1869?".

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 10:21:59 AM UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> The use of 'standard' languages seems to be very much a twentieth-century phenomenon:

Correct. Language extinction has been massive.

Though he would generally *not* be considered a major figure, i always liked Loek Dikker's score for Verhoeven's film THE 4TH MAN, circa 83 or 84.

On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 3:36:13 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
> On Friday, January 27, 2023 at 10:21:59 AM UTC+1, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> > The use of 'standard' languages seems to be very much a twentieth-century phenomenon:
> Correct. Language extinction has been massive.
yes, linguistic "spread zones" expanded and "mosaic zones" decreased.
Travel, mass media, trade, conflict, etc