https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:34 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/

ROTFL !!!

gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 18:14:34 UTC+1:
> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/

Actually the title is complete nonsense and the article itself proves this:

"Based on the available information, individual indicators—so-called “polygenic scores”—could be calculated for the genetic risk of the participants for mental illnesses as well as their genetic predisposition for musicality."

Note the word "could"... All assumptions and hypotheses, yet the title makes it out to be that science has proved this... what nonsense. There is so much wrong with this article... almost (if not) every sentence, a bunch of idiots must have written it and a bunch of absolute idiots must have conducted this absolutely senseless and absolutely idiotic study.

It is scientifically impossible to prove that there is genetic predisposition for musicality (not saying there isn't, it's just not provable; logically ofc musical families will more likely have musical children than non musical families... because of sheer exposure, same goes for say scientifically oriented families etc)

Max Planck Institut; you can trust them in physics, chemistry, biochemistry or biology related stuff (most of the times anyway), but this is just absolute nonsense.

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 19:15:59 UTC+1:
> gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 18:14:34 UTC+1:
> > https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
>
> Actually the title is complete nonsense and the article itself proves this:
>
> "Based on the available information, individual indicators—so-called “polygenic scores”—could be calculated for the genetic risk of the participants for mental illnesses as well as their genetic predisposition for musicality."
>
> Note the word "could"... All assumptions and hypotheses, yet the title makes it out to be that science has proved this... what nonsense. There is so much wrong with this article... almost (if not) every sentence, a bunch of idiots must have written it and a bunch of absolute idiots must have conducted this absolutely senseless and absolutely idiotic study.
>
> It is scientifically impossible to prove that there is genetic predisposition for musicality (not saying there isn't, it's just not provable; logically ofc musical families will more likely have musical children than non musical families... because of sheer exposure, same goes for say scientifically oriented families etc)
>
> Max Planck Institut; you can trust them in physics, chemistry, biochemistry or biology related stuff (most of the times anyway), but this is just absolute nonsense.

article is pure obscurantism... how is "musicality" defined etc etc? Are people like Hiromi Uehara considered musical?

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 17:14:34 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/

Thanks. Interesting data based on a large number of respondents. The incidence of depression, burnout and bipolar is described as "slightly higher" in musically active subjects. We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music". Studies of stress in musicians are plentiful, and I would recommend in particular "Pressure Sensitive" by Geoff Wills, and excellent book with a lot of data in it and a lively and informed text from a psychologist who is also a musician.

Stress in active musicians is well known and the subject of a lot of ongoing research and charitable help from organisations like Help Musicians and BAPAM in the UK. Depression and burnout are career related though there may be some genetic component in depression. Bipolar has a stronger genetic component, but stress as a trigger may be significant in some measure. A lot of work is being done in several countries on this subject. More so with musicians than actors or dancers, who make up a smaller slice of respondents to surveys and clinical cases.

Burnout is a particular risk in classical musicians and orchestral musicians who are under greater stress because of the substantially greater technical challenges they face and their often exhausting schedules, which include teaching, touring, rehearsals and practising. Hardly news to the musicians on this ng.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:02:45 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music".

Yes, I was going to say so, too, in response to the RMCR genius.
>
> Stress in active musicians is well known and the subject of a lot of ongoing research and charitable help from organisations like Help Musicians and BAPAM in the UK. Depression and burnout are career related though there may be some genetic component in depression. Bipolar has a stronger genetic component, but stress as a trigger may be significant in some measure. A lot of work is being done in several countries on this subject. More so with musicians than actors or dancers, who make up a smaller slice of respondents to surveys and clinical cases.

Dancers have serious occupational hazards, too, in the hips, knees and ankles, which is why there are virtually no dancers over age 40. And musicians of course face hearing damage.

Herman schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 21:18:39 UTC+1:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:02:45 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> > We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music".
> Yes, I was going to say so, too, in response to the RMCR genius.

Not in the part I quoted you genius... You really have no eye (and no ear) for details. This is the exact reason you fell for the vaccine nonsense in the first place... (vaccines were only good for elderly and people with comorbidities). Read the article and look up the part I quoted... My criticism is legitimate and precise.

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 20:22:33 UTC, Marc S wrote:
> Herman schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 21:18:39 UTC+1:
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:02:45 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music".
> > Yes, I was going to say so, too, in response to the RMCR genius.
> Not in the part I quoted you genius... You really have no eye (and no ear) for details. This is the exact reason you fell for the vaccine nonsense in the first place... (vaccines were only good for elderly and people with comorbidities). Read the article and look up the part I quoted... My criticism is legitimate and precise.

More gibberish from the Sultan of Schlock. As usual he's on some planet in his own solar system. The psychology of musicians has been my job for a good 30 years, and I ran an MA course in Performance Health for many years as well as writing 5 books on the subject. Our "RMCR genius" knows about as much on the subject as you could put in a matchbox after replacing all the matches. I'm being generous here. The health of musicians matters to all of us who are musically active and by extension everyone who is grateful for what musicians do for us.

In article <4d3c7204-aba8-4006-a935-7e6522ebbc80n@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>The health of musicians matters to all of us who are musically
>active and by extension everyone who is grateful for what musicians
>do for us.

My daughter once told me there's a form of Parkinson's that's
basically unique to musicians.... (I think it was a warning.)

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 20:18:39 UTC, Herman wrote:

> Dancers have serious occupational hazards, too, in the hips, knees and ankles, which is why there are virtually no dancers over age 40.

Yes indeed, all too true. I was the Career Psychologist for the major established and independent ballet companies in the UK for 15 years, and I saw hundreds of our best dancers during transition which as you say usually takes place in the mid 30s. Incidence of injuries is well documented and the subject matter of numerous conferences and the Healthier Dancer Programme in the UK.

One interesting fact is that dancers don't suffer from performance anxiety in the same way as orchestral musicians. They run and jump, which is the correct use of adrenalin. In contrast orchestral musicians sit still in chairs, which causes a lot of cognitive dissonance apart from not working off the rise in adrenalin. Add to that the fear of bow shake from stiff limbs and hands as a result of adrenalin and you have a nasty cocktail.

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 20:46:15 UTC, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> My daughter once told me there's a form of Parkinson's that's
> basically unique to musicians.... (I think it was a warning.)

Could she have been talking about Focal Dystonia? This is a problem in musicians from misuse/overuse and has cut short a number of careers. Leon Fleisher made a partial recovery, but it's very hard to treat. See this site:

https://dystonia-foundation.org/what-is-dystonia/types-dystonia/musicians/

In article <df2041f0-dfff-4edd-b290-15a8c89eafabn@googlegroups.com>,
Andy Evans <performanceandmedia@gmail.com> wrote:
>Could she have been talking about Focal Dystonia?

I don't really know, but there do appear to be a variety of potential
pathologies....

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:50:53 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 20:18:39 UTC, Herman wrote:
>
>
>
> One interesting fact is that dancers don't suffer from performance anxiety in the same way as orchestral musicians. They run and jump, which is the correct use of adrenalin. In contrast orchestral musicians sit still in chairs, which causes a lot of cognitive dissonance apart from not working off the rise in adrenalin. Add to that the fear of bow shake from stiff limbs and hands as a result of adrenalin and you have a nasty cocktail.

I know, my mom was a ballet dancer (long time ago), I grew up among dancers.. In many ways they are the funnest people (being young helps, too), totally different from all the various complicated souls in an orchestra.

On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 12:55:24 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <df2041f0-dfff-4edd...@googlegroups.com>,
> Andy Evans <performan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Could she have been talking about Focal Dystonia?
> I don't really know, but there do appear to be a variety of potential
> pathologies....

https://carpaltunnelpros.com/2020/03/09/7-common-hand-injuries-in-musicians/#:~:text=Carpal%20Tunnel%20Syndrome&text=It%20can%20afflict%20young%20musicians,weakness%20in%20the%20affected%20hand.

In article <d48276a5-0c30-4d63-b70e-4c480ab9538bn@googlegroups.com>,
Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I know, my mom was a ballet dancer (long time ago), I grew up among
>dancers.

My wife is still in 2 professional dance companies, jazz & modern,
the latter of which she also choreographs sometimes. (She's also
started dancing Bollywood... perfect for the old ladies like her,
she says.)

The distinction Andy noted can be significant in sports too. In
baseball for instance, there's a lot of tension from waiting around,
versus e.g. football or basketball where you go run & slam into
someone....

On 2/9/2023 3:02 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 17:14:34 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
>> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
>
> Thanks. Interesting data based on a large number of respondents. The incidence of depression, burnout and bipolar is described as "slightly higher" in musically active subjects. We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music". Studies of stress in musicians are plentiful, and I would recommend in particular "Pressure Sensitive" by Geoff Wills, and excellent book with a lot of data in it and a lively and informed text from a psychologist who is also a musician.
>
> Stress in active musicians is well known and the subject of a lot of ongoing research and charitable help from organisations like Help Musicians and BAPAM in the UK. Depression and burnout are career related though there may be some genetic component in depression. Bipolar has a stronger genetic component, but stress as a trigger may be significant in some measure. A lot of work is being done in several countries on this subject. More so with musicians than actors or dancers, who make up a smaller slice of respondents to surveys and clinical cases.
>
> Burnout is a particular risk in classical musicians and orchestral musicians who are under greater stress because of the substantially greater technical challenges they face and their often exhausting schedules, which include teaching, touring, rehearsals and practising. Hardly news to the musicians on this ng.

Is there research on stress/ mental issues experienced by air traffic controllers, firefighters, police, soldiers, dentists, Financial analysts, PH.D Students? Do musicians suffer any more than these (and probably many other) occupational groups? Do we know whether people who are attracted to dangerous occupations have a genetic component to their problems?

Andy Evans schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 21:41:33 UTC+1:
> On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 20:22:33 UTC, Marc S wrote:
> > Herman schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 21:18:39 UTC+1:
> > > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:02:45 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music".
> > > Yes, I was going to say so, too, in response to the RMCR genius.
> > Not in the part I quoted you genius... You really have no eye (and no ear) for details. This is the exact reason you fell for the vaccine nonsense in the first place... (vaccines were only good for elderly and people with comorbidities). Read the article and look up the part I quoted... My criticism is legitimate and precise.
> More gibberish from the Sultan of Schlock. As usual he's on some planet in his own solar system. The psychology of musicians has been my job for a good 30 years, and I ran an MA course in Performance Health for many years as well as writing 5 books on the subject. Our "RMCR genius" knows about as much on the subject as you could put in a matchbox after replacing all the matches. I'm being generous here. The health of musicians matters to all of us who are musically active and by extension everyone who is grateful for what musicians do for us.

As usual no legitimate criticism, but just personal attacks from Dan's most beloved antisemite. How about addressing a point I made instead?
You yourself acknowledged that you don't understand Freud. Your notion of psychology is compeltely screwed, as exemplified by your reply above which is completely pathetic - self aggrandizing statements. LEarn to reflect on your behaviour you idiot.

Look, I don't talk about myself, I talk about the subject at hand.

Have fun living in your fantasy world

Frank Berger schrieb am Donnerstag, 9. Februar 2023 um 22:24:27 UTC+1:
> On 2/9/2023 3:02 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 17:14:34 UTC, gggg gggg wrote:
> >> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
> >
> > Thanks. Interesting data based on a large number of respondents. The incidence of depression, burnout and bipolar is described as "slightly higher" in musically active subjects. We are talking about performers here - musically active - not people who "are musical" or "like music". Studies of stress in musicians are plentiful, and I would recommend in particular "Pressure Sensitive" by Geoff Wills, and excellent book with a lot of data in it and a lively and informed text from a psychologist who is also a musician.
> >
> > Stress in active musicians is well known and the subject of a lot of ongoing research and charitable help from organisations like Help Musicians and BAPAM in the UK. Depression and burnout are career related though there may be some genetic component in depression. Bipolar has a stronger genetic component, but stress as a trigger may be significant in some measure. A lot of work is being done in several countries on this subject. More so with musicians than actors or dancers, who make up a smaller slice of respondents to surveys and clinical cases.
> >
> > Burnout is a particular risk in classical musicians and orchestral musicians who are under greater stress because of the substantially greater technical challenges they face and their often exhausting schedules, which include teaching, touring, rehearsals and practising. Hardly news to the musicians on this ng.
> Is there research on stress/ mental issues experienced by air traffic controllers, firefighters, police, soldiers, dentists, Financial analysts, PH.D Students? Do musicians suffer any more than these (and probably many other) occupational groups? Do we know whether people who are attracted to dangerous occupations have a genetic component to their problems?

Legitimate questions. Frank, the wisest among all of us.

On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 21:24:27 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:
> Is there research on stress/ mental issues experienced by air traffic controllers, firefighters, police, soldiers, dentists, Financial analysts, PH.D Students? Do musicians suffer any more than these (and probably many other) occupational groups? Do we know whether people who are attracted to dangerous occupations have a genetic component to their problems?

Yes indeed. Plenty. Psychologists do plenty of studies on stress. Dangerous occupations aren't my field so no comment, but as for burnout those particularly at risk besides musicians are doctors, nurses, paramedics, lawyers, care workers, prison staff and........video gamers. I used to see a lot of musicians with burnout, mostly orchestral musicians over the age of 40. But I did know a rock musician who gave up in his mid 20s having been part of a very well-known rock band. Bear in mind also that violinists and pianists who start full-scale study from the median age of 7 (or younger in some cases) will have been playing their instrument many hours a day for a good 15 years by their early 20s.

On 2023-02-09 18:04:57 +0000, Dan Koren said:

> On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:34 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
>> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
>
> ROTFL !!!

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you my strongest evidence:

rec.music.classical.recordings

-Owen

On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:05:44 PM UTC+1, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-02-09 18:04:57 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:34 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> >> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
> >
> > ROTFL !!!
> Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you my strongest evidence:
>
> rec.music.classical.recordings
>
> -Owen

Most 'musically active' members have been pushed out by the armchair generals.

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 23:05:44 UTC+1:
> On 2023-02-09 18:04:57 +0000, Dan Koren said:
>
> > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:34 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> >> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
> >
> > ROTFL !!!
> Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you my strongest evidence:
>
> rec.music.classical.recordings
>
> -Owen

Are you including yourself? If so, how would you be able to tell right from wrong, evidence from no evidence?

Herman schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 23:11:26 UTC+1:
> On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:05:44 PM UTC+1, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> > On 2023-02-09 18:04:57 +0000, Dan Koren said:
> >
> > > On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 9:14:34 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > >> https://neurosciencenews.com/music-genetics-mental-health-22468/
> > >
> > > ROTFL !!!
> > Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I submit to you my strongest evidence:
> >
> > rec.music.classical.recordings
> >
> > -Owen
> Most 'musically active' members have been pushed out by the armchair generals.

Go cry - I don't mind, it's better than playing the armchair general yourself accusing israel of doing "big time killing".

On Thu, 09 Feb 2023 12:49:22 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

> On Thursday, 9 February 2023 at 20:18:39 UTC, Herman wrote:
>
> > Dancers have serious occupational hazards, too, in the hips, knees and ankles, which is why there are virtually no dancers over age 40.
>
> Yes indeed, all too true. I was the Career Psychologist for the major established and independent ballet companies in the UK for 15 years, and I saw hundreds of our best dancers during transition which as you say usually takes place in the mid 30s. Incidence of injuries is well documented and the subject matter of numerous conferences and the Healthier Dancer Programme in the UK.
>
> One interesting fact is that dancers don't suffer from performance anxiety in the same way as orchestral musicians. They run and jump, which is the correct use of adrenalin. In contrast orchestral musicians sit still in chairs, which causes a lot of cognitive dissonance apart from not working off the rise in adrenalin. Add to that the fear of bow shake from stiff limbs and hands as a result of adrenalin and you have a nasty cocktail.

If the sitting still is a problem, could the orchestra
spin on exercise cycles ? Then when they play they
can work out.

On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 17:44:21 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
> In contrast orchestral musicians sit still in chairs, which causes a lot of cognitive dissonance apart from not working off the rise in adrenalin. Add to that the fear of bow shake from stiff limbs and hands as a result of adrenalin and you have a nasty cocktail.
> If the sitting still is a problem, could the orchestra spin on exercise cycles ? Then when they play they
> can work out.

Good idea. The bicycles could power the lighting in the halls they play in. Then they can play for the door and make a few cents.