There's a list floating around on the message boards of possible exclusive toys that may be coming around the pike for 2022.

Walmart is allegedly slated to get a Velocitron-themed series of toys and will include Deluxe toys named Clampdown and Burnout and Blurr and Cosmos and Road Rocket, a Voyager version of Road Hauler and Override, and a Leader-class Black Convoy with trailer.

(Based on the way in which Hasbro has been branching out to celebrate the other iterations of the franchise, I'm tempted to say this is probably Armada Blurr, since it doesn't make sense to sell us G1 Blurr again so soon. Road Hauler has been confirmed to be Earthrise Grapple in a Constructicon green motif. Override is probably the Cybertron character, I'm guessing. If Road Rocket is the G2 character, I will be surprised but pleased. I assume Black Convoy is a RiD Scourge-like version of the G2 Laser Prime toy we're getting.)

Target is continuing the Buzzworthy Bumblebee assortment and will include a Deluxe Silverstreak, another multipack (this time with Goldbug, Ransack, toy Scorponok, and Paralyzer), a toy deco version of Terrorsaur, and an accessory pack with a red Cog.

(To my mind, Ransack is a likely redeco of Legacy Kickback. "Toy Scorponok" probably means Kingdom Scorponok in black and blue colors, like the 1996 toy. A toy-based deco of Terrorsaur would have bright green spots in pteradactyl mode, a red beak instead of yellow, and a blue-painted robot helmet instead of red. I guess the red Cog is meant to represent of the generic Autobots from the Netflix series.)

Walgreens is reportedly getting a Deluxe-class Minerva, which we've also heard from other sources in recent months.

Amazon is slated to get a Wreckers-themed series of toys, including Deluxe versions of Impactor and Twin Twist and Topspin and Leadfoot, a Voyager-class Springer, a Voyager-class Bulkhead redeco, and also a Deluxe-class Fractyl.

(I guess Impactor is the Siege toy yet again. Twin Twist and Topspin are supposed to be the Saltman-X and Saltman-Z color schemes, which is just about the most obscure G2 homage ever. So, Titans Returns toys again, I'm guessing. Leadfoot is probably not the G2 Rotor Force character... I'm guessing this is the Dark of the Moon character. We never did get a redeco of Siege Springer, so it makes sense to trot out the mold again. Fractyl is the BotCon '97 character and was originally a Terrorsaur redeco.)

This next batch of toys is described as "fan channel," so I guess probably Hasbro Pulse? There's a Deluxe version of Beast Wars Sandstorm coming as well as Nightprowler, Beast Wars Buzzsaw (we've seen photos of this one), Deluxe DK3, Deluxe Guard, Deluxe Lift Ticket, and a Voyager version of Armada Cyclonus.

(Sandstorm was the BotCon '99 redeco of Scorponok, so I guess it makes sense as a redeco. Nightprowler was previously reported as a possible redeco for Cheetor. Buzzsaw was a 1997 redeco of Waspinator in yellow. DK-3 was the designation for the blue Trailbreaker sold under the pre-Transformers line Diakron. Some fans are theorizing Guard is black Ironhide, also from Diakron. We're already gotten a pre-order for Lift-Ticket from Hasbro Selects, so I'm not sure what's going on here.)

Hasbro Pulse is also slated to get a set for PulseCon consisting of a Deluxe-class Orion Pax and a Voyager-class Alpha Trion. Both of these were reported previously. My guess is remolds of Studio Series Kup and Scourge.

There's also a Core-class Packrat (blue Rattrap) in the works as well as a Voyager-class Antagony (black Inferno) and a Titan-class Guardian Robot (blue-and-white Omega Supreme) but it's uncertain how they'll be marketed.

Exciting to think about what's coming!

Zob (Christmasing it up)

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> There's a list floating around on the message boards of possible
> exclusive toys that may be coming around the pike for 2022.
>
> Walmart is allegedly slated to get a Velocitron-themed series of toys and
> will include Deluxe toys named Clampdown and Burnout and Blurr and Cosmos
> and Road Rocket, a Voyager version of Road Hauler and Override, and a
> Leader-class Black Convoy with trailer.
>
> (Based on the way in which Hasbro has been branching out to celebrate the
> other iterations of the franchise, I'm tempted to say this is probably
> Armada Blurr, since it doesn't make sense to sell us G1 Blurr again so
> soon. Road Hauler has been confirmed to be Earthrise Grapple in a
> Constructicon green motif. Override is probably the Cybertron character,
> I'm guessing. If Road Rocket is the G2 character, I will be surprised
> but pleased. I assume Black Convoy is a RiD Scourge-like version of the
> G2 Laser Prime toy we're getting.)

Since exclusives are almost always redecos, I doubt this is Armada Blurr.
Of course, Velocitron traditionally has characters with wheels, so…

And I’m wondering what will become Override, if it is the Cybertron
character. Nothing really seems to fit. (Titans Return Hot Rod?) Perhaps
there will be a new mold getting a redeco or a predeco.

> Target is continuing the Buzzworthy Bumblebee assortment and will include
> a Deluxe Silverstreak, another multipack (this time with Goldbug,
> Ransack, toy Scorponok, and Paralyzer), a toy deco version of Terrorsaur,
> and an accessory pack with a red Cog.
>
> (To my mind, Ransack is a likely redeco of Legacy Kickback. "Toy
> Scorponok" probably means Kingdom Scorponok in black and blue colors,
> like the 1996 toy. A toy-based deco of Terrorsaur would have bright
> green spots in pteradactyl mode, a red beak instead of yellow, and a
> blue-painted robot helmet instead of red. I guess the red Cog is meant
> to represent of the generic Autobots from the Netflix series.)

Paralyzer is the name of the Botcon Thrilling 30 Waspinator redeco that
looks like Big Bite.

There have been countless different Ransacks over the years, so I have no
idea.

> Walgreens is reportedly getting a Deluxe-class Minerva, which we've also
> heard from other sources in recent months.
>
> Amazon is slated to get a Wreckers-themed series of toys, including
> Deluxe versions of Impactor and Twin Twist and Topspin and Leadfoot, a
> Voyager-class Springer, a Voyager-class Bulkhead redeco, and also a Deluxe-class Fractyl.
>
> (I guess Impactor is the Siege toy yet again. Twin Twist and Topspin are
> supposed to be the Saltman-X and Saltman-Z color schemes, which is just
> about the most obscure G2 homage ever. So, Titans Returns toys again,
> I'm guessing. Leadfoot is probably not the G2 Rotor Force character...
> I'm guessing this is the Dark of the Moon character. We never did get a
> redeco of Siege Springer, so it makes sense to trot out the mold again.
> Fractyl is the BotCon '97 character and was originally a Terrorsaur redeco.)
>

G2 Leadfoot was a member of the Wreckers in some continuity according to
TFWiki, and there will be a new F1 racer mold for Dragstrip. He might also
be a Mirage clone.

> This next batch of toys is described as "fan channel," so I guess
> probably Hasbro Pulse? There's a Deluxe version of Beast Wars Sandstorm
> coming as well as Nightprowler, Beast Wars Buzzsaw (we've seen photos of
> this one), Deluxe DK3, Deluxe Guard, Deluxe Lift Ticket, and a Voyager
> version of Armada Cyclonus.
>
> (Sandstorm was the BotCon '99 redeco of Scorponok, so I guess it makes
> sense as a redeco. Nightprowler was previously reported as a possible
> redeco for Cheetor. Buzzsaw was a 1997 redeco of Waspinator in yellow.
> DK-3 was the designation for the blue Trailbreaker sold under the
> pre-Transformers line Diakron. Some fans are theorizing Guard is black
> Ironhide, also from Diakron. We're already gotten a pre-order for
> Lift-Ticket from Hasbro Selects, so I'm not sure what's going on here.)

I am betting that is Armada of “Cyclonus and his Armada”. The only really
plausible redeco of Cyclonus would be as a toy-color version.

Nightprowler is the long cancelled Halloween Horrorcon Cheetor redeco? Ugh…
of all the abandoned decos, why that? I hope they at least use the Tigatron
mold as being a little more snow-leopardy, but if he’s deluxe then no.

>
> Hasbro Pulse is also slated to get a set for PulseCon consisting of a
> Deluxe-class Orion Pax and a Voyager-class Alpha Trion. Both of these
> were reported previously. My guess is remolds of Studio Series Kup and Scourge.
>
> There's also a Core-class Packrat (blue Rattrap) in the works as well as
> a Voyager-class Antagony (black Inferno) and a Titan-class Guardian Robot
> (blue-and-white Omega Supreme) but it's uncertain how they'll be marketed.
>
> Exciting to think about what's coming!
>
>
> Zob (Christmasing it up)
>

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 1:58:55 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> Since exclusives are almost always redecos, I doubt this is Armada Blurr.

You've got a point. At the same time, though, we've gotten Netflix Bumblebee and Netflix Soundwave, who were both new toys. If it is G1 Blurr, maybe it's a modified version of the Studio Series toy in slightly different colors and comes with a Targetmaster or something.

> And I’m wondering what will become Override, if it is the Cybertron
> character. Nothing really seems to fit. (Titans Return Hot Rod?) Perhaps
> there will be a new mold getting a redeco or a predeco.

Override's a weird-looking character. Nothing seems to quite match that design. Maybe this is another Geewunnification of the character, like Legacy Bulkhead? If they go down that road, then that opens the possibilities quite a bit.

> There have been countless different Ransacks over the years, so I have no
> idea.

Well, I doubt it's the G2 Rotor Force character. All the other ones I can think of would require an all-new mold. Ransack from Kickback makes the most sense to me.

> G2 Leadfoot was a member of the Wreckers in some continuity according to
> TFWiki, and there will be a new F1 racer mold for Dragstrip. He might also
> be a Mirage clone.

G2 Leadfoot was yellow, and Drag Strip was yellow. That's going to be a pretty boring redeco if they go that route. Too samey.
> I am betting that is Armada of “Cyclonus and his Armada”. The only really
> plausible redeco of Cyclonus would be as a toy-color version.

I mean, that wouldn't be awful. I'd buy it. But if they're soliciting it as "Armada Cyclonus" that's seriously trolling the fans. On the other hand, it could be a remolded Siege Springer. It could be a Geewunnified version of Armada Cyclonus with a blocky, squared-off chest.

> Nightprowler is the long cancelled Halloween Horrorcon Cheetor redeco? Ugh…

I'm not super excited about it. Hasbro has, in the past, dug through the annals of Transformers history and go, "Hey, look, this thing existed" but that doesn't always translate to a redeco we always wanted or needed. Some canceled redecos are awesome, like Toxitron, and need to happen. Nightprowler, I can take or leave.

Zob (Christmas, as with every year, was over way too fast)

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 12:40:06 PM UTC, Zobovor wrote:
> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 1:58:55 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
> > Since exclusives are almost always redecos, I doubt this is Armada Blurr.
> You've got a point. At the same time, though, we've gotten Netflix Bumblebee and Netflix Soundwave, who were both new toys. If it is G1 Blurr, maybe it's a modified version of the Studio Series toy in slightly different colors and comes with a Targetmaster or something.
> > And I’m wondering what will become Override, if it is the Cybertron
> > character. Nothing really seems to fit. (Titans Return Hot Rod?) Perhaps
> > there will be a new mold getting a redeco or a predeco.
> Override's a weird-looking character. Nothing seems to quite match that design. Maybe this is another Geewunnification of the character, like Legacy Bulkhead? If they go down that road, then that opens the possibilities quite a bit.
> > There have been countless different Ransacks over the years, so I have no
> > idea.
> Well, I doubt it's the G2 Rotor Force character. All the other ones I can think of would require an all-new mold. Ransack from Kickback makes the most sense to me.
> > G2 Leadfoot was a member of the Wreckers in some continuity according to
> > TFWiki, and there will be a new F1 racer mold for Dragstrip. He might also
> > be a Mirage clone.
> G2 Leadfoot was yellow, and Drag Strip was yellow. That's going to be a pretty boring redeco if they go that route. Too samey.
> > I am betting that is Armada of “Cyclonus and his Armada”. The only really
> > plausible redeco of Cyclonus would be as a toy-color version.
> I mean, that wouldn't be awful. I'd buy it. But if they're soliciting it as "Armada Cyclonus" that's seriously trolling the fans. On the other hand, it could be a remolded Siege Springer. It could be a Geewunnified version of Armada Cyclonus with a blocky, squared-off chest.
> > Nightprowler is the long cancelled Halloween Horrorcon Cheetor redeco? Ugh…
> I'm not super excited about it. Hasbro has, in the past, dug through the annals of Transformers history and go, "Hey, look, this thing existed" but that doesn't always translate to a redeco we always wanted or needed. Some canceled redecos are awesome, like Toxitron, and need to happen. Nightprowler, I can take or leave.
>
>
> Zob (Christmas, as with every year, was over way too fast)

I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that did absolutely nothing. But I digress).

As for an Armada Cyclonus repaint, they could do a G1 toy color scheme. Or they could go really far afield and do this

https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/n0j4wf/and_his_armada_kingdom_cyclonus_repainted_as/

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 3:47:28 PM UTC-7, Codigo Postal wrote:

> I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that did absolutely nothing. But I digress).

I wonder if that would even be possible in today's market. The cost of developing toys has risen exponentially. Not just the manufacturing process itself, but everything associated with it—the "invisible" costs that we as consumers don't see or think about. The price of shipping and distribution is at an all-time high.

My point is that complex gear-driven toys with sophisticated internal moving parts might not be possible in today's market, unless they want to bump up pricing again. Deluxe toys are already going up to $23 in most markets. That's preposterous. They'd probably be $25 or more if Hasbro wanted to introduce Armada-style spring-activated gimmicks again.

Honestly, some of the gimmicks from that era were terrible. Electronic toys required huge blocks of real estate for speakers and batteries, so you ended up with toys like Energon Ironhide who couldn't even fold up into a proper vehicle, or Armada Scavenger who was just a big brick with treads. Awful.

I feel like toys are so much better when they're not a slave to their own gimmicks. And, frankly, I'm not a small child, so I don't need toys with sounds and lights and launching missiles. That just means batteries that are going to leak in ten years, or projectiles that are going to fly across the room and disappear behind a bookshelf. I'm fine without that nonsense.

I think the key to what we're going to see in the future is something that Hasbro said during one of their recent livestreams. They were just enthralled with the way they retroactively inserted movie Barricade into G1. He opened their eyes to the possibilities. Given what Legacy Bulkhead looks like, I think this is the direction they're taking for the forseeable future. They're going to take all these characters from different series and Geewunnify them, because they think this is what we want. They're seeing the fan response to G1 tributes, but not understanding the reason behind the fan response. They think it's the G1 aesthetic we're all in love with (boxy robots), so they think if they take movie characters or Armada characters or whatever and turn them into boxy robots, we'll eat it up.

Eventually, I think, they'll figure out that if they're going to do a tribute to Armada Cyclonus, then he needs to look like Armada Cyclonus. But I worry that, right now, they think we want Springer in Armada colors. Which I don't think is what anybody wants at all.

Zob (Lenny may very well be a great guy, but he's no John Warden)

On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 4:47:28 PM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 12:40:06 PM UTC, Zobovor wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 1:58:55 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> >
> > > Since exclusives are almost always redecos, I doubt this is Armada Blurr.
> > You've got a point. At the same time, though, we've gotten Netflix Bumblebee and Netflix Soundwave, who were both new toys. If it is G1 Blurr, maybe it's a modified version of the Studio Series toy in slightly different colors and comes with a Targetmaster or something.
> > > And I’m wondering what will become Override, if it is the Cybertron
> > > character. Nothing really seems to fit. (Titans Return Hot Rod?) Perhaps
> > > there will be a new mold getting a redeco or a predeco.
> > Override's a weird-looking character. Nothing seems to quite match that design. Maybe this is another Geewunnification of the character, like Legacy Bulkhead? If they go down that road, then that opens the possibilities quite a bit.
> > > There have been countless different Ransacks over the years, so I have no
> > > idea.
> > Well, I doubt it's the G2 Rotor Force character. All the other ones I can think of would require an all-new mold. Ransack from Kickback makes the most sense to me.
> > > G2 Leadfoot was a member of the Wreckers in some continuity according to
> > > TFWiki, and there will be a new F1 racer mold for Dragstrip. He might also
> > > be a Mirage clone.
> > G2 Leadfoot was yellow, and Drag Strip was yellow. That's going to be a pretty boring redeco if they go that route. Too samey.
> > > I am betting that is Armada of “Cyclonus and his Armada”. The only really
> > > plausible redeco of Cyclonus would be as a toy-color version.
> > I mean, that wouldn't be awful. I'd buy it. But if they're soliciting it as "Armada Cyclonus" that's seriously trolling the fans. On the other hand, it could be a remolded Siege Springer. It could be a Geewunnified version of Armada Cyclonus with a blocky, squared-off chest.
> > > Nightprowler is the long cancelled Halloween Horrorcon Cheetor redeco? Ugh…
> > I'm not super excited about it. Hasbro has, in the past, dug through the annals of Transformers history and go, "Hey, look, this thing existed" but that doesn't always translate to a redeco we always wanted or needed. Some canceled redecos are awesome, like Toxitron, and need to happen. Nightprowler, I can take or leave.
> >
> >
> > Zob (Christmas, as with every year, was over way too fast)
> I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that did absolutely nothing. But I digress).
>
> As for an Armada Cyclonus repaint, they could do a G1 toy color scheme. Or they could go really far afield and do this
>
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/n0j4wf/and_his_armada_kingdom_cyclonus_repainted_as/

Hopefully we get a Leader class Tidal Wave at some point, even if it's just a repaint of a leader class Broadside.

Codigo Postal <codigopostal959@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 12:40:06 PM UTC, Zobovor wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 1:58:55 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the
>> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>>
>>> Since exclusives are almost always redecos, I doubt this is Armada Blurr.
>> You've got a point. At the same time, though, we've gotten Netflix
>> Bumblebee and Netflix Soundwave, who were both new toys. If it is G1
>> Blurr, maybe it's a modified version of the Studio Series toy in
>> slightly different colors and comes with a Targetmaster or something.
>>> And I’m wondering what will become Override, if it is the Cybertron
>>> character. Nothing really seems to fit. (Titans Return Hot Rod?) Perhaps
>>> there will be a new mold getting a redeco or a predeco.
>> Override's a weird-looking character. Nothing seems to quite match that
>> design. Maybe this is another Geewunnification of the character, like
>> Legacy Bulkhead? If they go down that road, then that opens the possibilities quite a bit.
>>> There have been countless different Ransacks over the years, so I have no
>>> idea.
>> Well, I doubt it's the G2 Rotor Force character. All the other ones I
>> can think of would require an all-new mold. Ransack from Kickback makes
>> the most sense to me.
>>> G2 Leadfoot was a member of the Wreckers in some continuity according to
>>> TFWiki, and there will be a new F1 racer mold for Dragstrip. He might also
>>> be a Mirage clone.
>> G2 Leadfoot was yellow, and Drag Strip was yellow. That's going to be a
>> pretty boring redeco if they go that route. Too samey.
>>> I am betting that is Armada of “Cyclonus and his Armada”. The only really
>>> plausible redeco of Cyclonus would be as a toy-color version.
>> I mean, that wouldn't be awful. I'd buy it. But if they're soliciting it
>> as "Armada Cyclonus" that's seriously trolling the fans. On the other
>> hand, it could be a remolded Siege Springer. It could be a Geewunnified
>> version of Armada Cyclonus with a blocky, squared-off chest.
>>> Nightprowler is the long cancelled Halloween Horrorcon Cheetor redeco? Ugh…
>> I'm not super excited about it. Hasbro has, in the past, dug through the
>> annals of Transformers history and go, "Hey, look, this thing existed"
>> but that doesn't always translate to a redeco we always wanted or
>> needed. Some canceled redecos are awesome, like Toxitron, and need to
>> happen. Nightprowler, I can take or leave.
>>
>>
>> Zob (Christmas, as with every year, was over way too fast)
>
>
> I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from
> the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a
> toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the
> Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that
> did absolutely nothing. But I digress).

Cyclonus had three gimmicks and they were all great. One of my favorite
toys ever.

> As for an Armada Cyclonus repaint, they could do a G1 toy color scheme.
> Or they could go really far afield and do this
>
>
> https://www.reddit.com/r/transformers/comments/n0j4wf/and_his_armada_kingdom_cyclonus_repainted_as/
>

I would buy this. I love this. Even without being an homage to Armada
Cyclonus, it looks like someone else rather than a mis colored Cyclonus.

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 3:47:28 PM UTC-7, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
>> I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from
>> the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a
>> toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the
>> Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that
>> did absolutely nothing. But I digress).
>
> I wonder if that would even be possible in today's market. The cost of
> developing toys has risen exponentially. Not just the manufacturing
> process itself, but everything associated with it—the "invisible" costs
> that we as consumers don't see or think about. The price of shipping and
> distribution is at an all-time high.
>
> My point is that complex gear-driven toys with sophisticated internal
> moving parts might not be possible in today's market, unless they want to
> bump up pricing again. Deluxe toys are already going up to $23 in most
> markets. That's preposterous. They'd probably be $25 or more if Hasbro
> wanted to introduce Armada-style spring-activated gimmicks again.
>
> Honestly, some of the gimmicks from that era were terrible. Electronic
> toys required huge blocks of real estate for speakers and batteries, so
> you ended up with toys like Energon Ironhide who couldn't even fold up
> into a proper vehicle, or Armada Scavenger who was just a big brick with treads. Awful.
>
> I feel like toys are so much better when they're not a slave to their own
> gimmicks. And, frankly, I'm not a small child, so I don't need toys with
> sounds and lights and launching missiles. That just means batteries that
> are going to leak in ten years, or projectiles that are going to fly
> across the room and disappear behind a bookshelf. I'm fine without that nonsense.

I am a small child. I miss the gimmicks.

Torca wiggled his tusks. Cybertron Voyager Starscream unleashed blades from
both farms simultaneously no matter the position of the arms. Armada
Cyclonus has his spinning rotor, the gear mechanism for Minicons and
missiles. Even Hot Shot and his axle launcher. All lots of fun.

> I think the key to what we're going to see in the future is something
> that Hasbro said during one of their recent livestreams. They were just
> enthralled with the way they retroactively inserted movie Barricade into
> G1. He opened their eyes to the possibilities.

Barricade plays it way too close to G1 style for my taste. He should be
just G1 enough to fit in, but still basically a monster in robot mode.

Also, did they not notice Sky-Byte and Nemesis Prime? Lugnut?

> Given what Legacy Bulkhead looks like, I think this is the direction
> they're taking for the forseeable future. They're going to take all
> these characters from different series and Geewunnify them, because they
> think this is what we want. They're seeing the fan response to G1
> tributes, but not understanding the reason behind the fan response. They
> think it's the G1 aesthetic we're all in love with (boxy robots), so they
> think if they take movie characters or Armada characters or whatever and
> turn them into boxy robots, we'll eat it up.

Add noses and most of TF:Prime could coexist with G1 styled toys. They’re a
little stylized, but not much. Animated is harder, but they did a great job
with Lugnut a few years back. And a mediocre job with Lockdown. And
Generations Armada Starscream was amazing.

Of course, when they get to TF:Cybertron… that is the current Generations
style, just slightly more like the G1 cartoon — smoother, fewer lines.

> Eventually, I think, they'll figure out that if they're going to do a
> tribute to Armada Cyclonus, then he needs to look like Armada Cyclonus.
> But I worry that, right now, they think we want Springer in Armada
> colors. Which I don't think is what anybody wants at all.

Bulkhead’s square chest seems really, really wrong.

But, if it gives us a G1 Thunderhoof, it will all be worth it. Or Bisque.

And I really think that Strongarm would work well, and is a character that
would add to G1. A young security officer who is overly fond of rules
because they give her enough structure that she can avoid her own
insecurities. We don’t have any character like that in G1 to the best of my
knowledge. And a police SUV is as common as a police car these days.

> Zob (Lenny may very well be a great guy, but he's no John Warden)
>

The line desperately needs something fresh after Siege, Earthrise and
Kingdom. Plus a lot of those toys don’t leave a lot of room for
improvement.

It also needs a decent kids cartoon. Or good toys to go along with the
cartoon.

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:12:14 AM UTC, Zobovor wrote:
> On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 3:47:28 PM UTC-7, Codigo Postal wrote:
>
> > I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that did absolutely nothing. But I digress).
> I wonder if that would even be possible in today's market. The cost of developing toys has risen exponentially. Not just the manufacturing process itself, but everything associated with it—the "invisible" costs that we as consumers don't see or think about. The price of shipping and distribution is at an all-time high.
>
> My point is that complex gear-driven toys with sophisticated internal moving parts might not be possible in today's market, unless they want to bump up pricing again. Deluxe toys are already going up to $23 in most markets. That's preposterous. They'd probably be $25 or more if Hasbro wanted to introduce Armada-style spring-activated gimmicks again.
>
> Honestly, some of the gimmicks from that era were terrible. Electronic toys required huge blocks of real estate for speakers and batteries, so you ended up with toys like Energon Ironhide who couldn't even fold up into a proper vehicle, or Armada Scavenger who was just a big brick with treads. Awful.
>
> I feel like toys are so much better when they're not a slave to their own gimmicks. And, frankly, I'm not a small child, so I don't need toys with sounds and lights and launching missiles. That just means batteries that are going to leak in ten years, or projectiles that are going to fly across the room and disappear behind a bookshelf. I'm fine without that nonsense.
>
> I think the key to what we're going to see in the future is something that Hasbro said during one of their recent livestreams. They were just enthralled with the way they retroactively inserted movie Barricade into G1. He opened their eyes to the possibilities. Given what Legacy Bulkhead looks like, I think this is the direction they're taking for the forseeable future. They're going to take all these characters from different series and Geewunnify them, because they think this is what we want. They're seeing the fan response to G1 tributes, but not understanding the reason behind the fan response. They think it's the G1 aesthetic we're all in love with (boxy robots), so they think if they take movie characters or Armada characters or whatever and turn them into boxy robots, we'll eat it up.
>
> Eventually, I think, they'll figure out that if they're going to do a tribute to Armada Cyclonus, then he needs to look like Armada Cyclonus. But I worry that, right now, they think we want Springer in Armada colors. Which I don't think is what anybody wants at all.
>
>
> Zob (Lenny may very well be a great guy, but he's no John Warden)

Remember the bad old days of G1 tributes when they would slap a vaguely related color scheme onto an existing mainline toy and call it quits? When Energon Grimlock and Swoop were horrible tributes to the originals, and yet we snapped them up because they were all we were likely to get?

That’s the state of the post Beast Era tribute market today, toys with passing resemblances to the originals and none of their charms, features, or accuracy.

It’s more than likely that any future tributes to the Unicron Trilogy era will be run through the G1 filter, a la Legacy Bulkhead. To me, that misses the point of what made that era special.

Armada toys were solid and fun. They came with Minicons and a plethora of play features, like Armada Megatron’s cannon, turret, retractable knife, and more. Add a little articulation and they could more than compete today. And yet, the otherwise unimpeachable Warden era gave us an uninspired repaint of CW Megatron with an inaccurate robot mode, an inaccurate vehicle mode, no Minicon, and none of the fun play features that characterized the original.

Maybe this is the reality, but I can’t say I enjoy it very much.

As for costs, production in Asia remains relatively inexpensive, especially with the shift to Vietnam. Logistics during the pandemic do pose an issue, but not to the level that people often think, and the issue is being increasingly used to justify price increases.

There is little doubt in my mind that Hasbro *could* release solid, gimmick-laden figures with accessories and articulation at a profitable pricepoint.. But I believe they lack the desire to do so.

As you’ve previously pointed out, they don’t want the value proposition on their in-house brands to visibly outweigh the value proposition on their licensed brands, and so it’s the in-house brands that suffer for it.

At Walmart, you can find Corps! and other generic 3.25” military soldier toys with bases, vehicles, and accessories with equivalent quality to G.I.Joe, at far lower prices. Yet Hasbro continues to gouge Joe’s ever-shrinking fanbase with ever higher prices.

Hasbro could absolutely deliver more bang for your buck. But they have no incentive to do so. They are a public company that needs to give shareholders profits and growth. And we as fans have shown, via our purchases on the aftermarket, our purchases of outrageously priced 3P products, and our continued support of the brand, that though we may grouse and moan, we will willingly buy whatever they give us, regardless of how many gaps need filling or how many toys suffer from the Great Cheapening.

As for gimmicks, it depends on their execution. Missiles are fun, electronics tend to take up more space than they are worth, but I like them anyway. As long as gimmick doesn’t overwhelm the toy and the toy is still fun on its own, and as long as there are alternative versions available, then I say, bring on the gimmicks. Combiner Wars did an excellent job reinterpreting old standards as limbs and torsos, essentially giving you three toys in one. Titans Return successfully applied the Headmaster concept to unrelated toys and made them some of the best incarnations ever. We will have Masterpiece, 3P, ThreeZero, and other means of getting high-end representations of our favorites - maybe it’s time for the mainline to be intuitive, durable, and fun again.

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 8:51:26 AM UTC-6, Codigo Postal wrote:
> On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:12:14 AM UTC, Zobovor wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 3:47:28 PM UTC-7, Codigo Postal wrote:
> >
> > > I for one think it’s high time for Armada to receive some attention from the mainline, and hopefully in a way that reflects its roots as a toy-based line featuring Minicon-activated play features (unlike the Power of the Primes duds that required you to plug in an “engine” that did absolutely nothing. But I digress).
> > I wonder if that would even be possible in today's market. The cost of developing toys has risen exponentially. Not just the manufacturing process itself, but everything associated with it—the "invisible" costs that we as consumers don't see or think about. The price of shipping and distribution is at an all-time high.
> >
> > My point is that complex gear-driven toys with sophisticated internal moving parts might not be possible in today's market, unless they want to bump up pricing again. Deluxe toys are already going up to $23 in most markets. That's preposterous. They'd probably be $25 or more if Hasbro wanted to introduce Armada-style spring-activated gimmicks again.
> >
> > Honestly, some of the gimmicks from that era were terrible. Electronic toys required huge blocks of real estate for speakers and batteries, so you ended up with toys like Energon Ironhide who couldn't even fold up into a proper vehicle, or Armada Scavenger who was just a big brick with treads. Awful.
> >
> > I feel like toys are so much better when they're not a slave to their own gimmicks. And, frankly, I'm not a small child, so I don't need toys with sounds and lights and launching missiles. That just means batteries that are going to leak in ten years, or projectiles that are going to fly across the room and disappear behind a bookshelf. I'm fine without that nonsense.
> >
> > I think the key to what we're going to see in the future is something that Hasbro said during one of their recent livestreams. They were just enthralled with the way they retroactively inserted movie Barricade into G1. He opened their eyes to the possibilities. Given what Legacy Bulkhead looks like, I think this is the direction they're taking for the forseeable future.. They're going to take all these characters from different series and Geewunnify them, because they think this is what we want. They're seeing the fan response to G1 tributes, but not understanding the reason behind the fan response. They think it's the G1 aesthetic we're all in love with (boxy robots), so they think if they take movie characters or Armada characters or whatever and turn them into boxy robots, we'll eat it up.
> >
> > Eventually, I think, they'll figure out that if they're going to do a tribute to Armada Cyclonus, then he needs to look like Armada Cyclonus. But I worry that, right now, they think we want Springer in Armada colors. Which I don't think is what anybody wants at all.
> >
> >
> > Zob (Lenny may very well be a great guy, but he's no John Warden)
> Remember the bad old days of G1 tributes when they would slap a vaguely related color scheme onto an existing mainline toy and call it quits? When Energon Grimlock and Swoop were horrible tributes to the originals, and yet we snapped them up because they were all we were likely to get?
>
> That’s the state of the post Beast Era tribute market today, toys with passing resemblances to the originals and none of their charms, features, or accuracy.
>
> It’s more than likely that any future tributes to the Unicron Trilogy era will be run through the G1 filter, a la Legacy Bulkhead. To me, that misses the point of what made that era special.
>
> Armada toys were solid and fun. They came with Minicons and a plethora of play features, like Armada Megatron’s cannon, turret, retractable knife, and more. Add a little articulation and they could more than compete today. And yet, the otherwise unimpeachable Warden era gave us an uninspired repaint of CW Megatron with an inaccurate robot mode, an inaccurate vehicle mode, no Minicon, and none of the fun play features that characterized the original.
>
> Maybe this is the reality, but I can’t say I enjoy it very much.
>
> As for costs, production in Asia remains relatively inexpensive, especially with the shift to Vietnam. Logistics during the pandemic do pose an issue, but not to the level that people often think, and the issue is being increasingly used to justify price increases.
>
> There is little doubt in my mind that Hasbro *could* release solid, gimmick-laden figures with accessories and articulation at a profitable pricepoint. But I believe they lack the desire to do so.
>
> As you’ve previously pointed out, they don’t want the value proposition on their in-house brands to visibly outweigh the value proposition on their licensed brands, and so it’s the in-house brands that suffer for it.
>
> At Walmart, you can find Corps! and other generic 3.25” military soldier toys with bases, vehicles, and accessories with equivalent quality to G.I.Joe, at far lower prices. Yet Hasbro continues to gouge Joe’s ever-shrinking fanbase with ever higher prices.
>
> Hasbro could absolutely deliver more bang for your buck. But they have no incentive to do so. They are a public company that needs to give shareholders profits and growth. And we as fans have shown, via our purchases on the aftermarket, our purchases of outrageously priced 3P products, and our continued support of the brand, that though we may grouse and moan, we will willingly buy whatever they give us, regardless of how many gaps need filling or how many toys suffer from the Great Cheapening.
>
> As for gimmicks, it depends on their execution. Missiles are fun, electronics tend to take up more space than they are worth, but I like them anyway.. As long as gimmick doesn’t overwhelm the toy and the toy is still fun on its own, and as long as there are alternative versions available, then I say, bring on the gimmicks. Combiner Wars did an excellent job reinterpreting old standards as limbs and torsos, essentially giving you three toys in one. Titans Return successfully applied the Headmaster concept to unrelated toys and made them some of the best incarnations ever. We will have Masterpiece, 3P, ThreeZero, and other means of getting high-end representations of our favorites - maybe it’s time for the mainline to be intuitive, durable, and fun again.

By that same logic, look at Cyberverse toys they still have toys with spring up armor, and spinning gimmicks, and they're cheaper than the main line for roughly the same sizes. I think theissue now is assuming any collector over the age of say 8 is too "adult" for fun gimmicks and only care about accuracy. Sure there are many who care about accuracy, but they're still supposed to be fun. I enjoy me a MP Sunstreaker every so often but i also want toys that do something. We're still getting gimmick laden toys, they're just the cheaper line than what people are focusing on, and I wish we could get over these complete breakoff points between lines. Kingdom has Fossilizers that are supposed to interact with other toys, yet a not insignificant portion of the Kingdom toyline isn't that compatible with the Fossilizers from the same line. The lines are blurred in the opposite way of CW and TR, when toys got Headmasters just because, or the multiple lines could work together relatively well.

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 7:51:26 AM UTC-7, Codigo Postal wrote:

<snip>

I'm really enjoying this discussion. Thanks to everyone who's participating.

> That’s the state of the post Beast Era tribute market today, toys with passing resemblances to the originals and none of their charms, features, or accuracy. Maybe this is the reality, but I can’t say I enjoy it very much.

I think what we may be seeing here is the result of the difference between the G1 toy design philosophy and the Armada-and-beyond toy design philosophy.

A lot of fans are nostalgic for the G1 era, but they're highly selective in what aspects they're nostalgic for. Younger fans don't understand the Geewunners. They're all, "Really? You're nostalgic for fragile toys whose windshields always broke off? Robots who were statues from the waist down? Budget animation with coloring mistakes out the wazoo?" Well, no. Not those aspects of G1 specifically. Toys like Starscream and Mirage were bricks, yes, but we *imagined* those bricks being able to do the things they did in the show, and not break in half in the process.

So along comes the modern neo-G1 updates and in some ways there's a synchronicity that's created. Finally, the toys are highly articulated and can be posed in myriad ways. At last, the toys look like the characters in media.. It's what a lot of folks always wished the G1 toys could actually be. The colors match, the humanoid designs match, and the new toys are more durable to boot. It's a win-win.

So time marches on and technology improves. The advent of less brittle plastics that allow for things like snap-together ball-and-socket joints. Articulation becomes par for the course, unless it's deliberately limited on some toys, like ones from Armada, to make the toys less complex for kids. There's generally more synergy between the look of the toys and the look of their media depiction (don't look over there, that's just Beast Machines).

So nowadays we have this great, big batch of fans who are nostalgic for the stuff they grew up on... Armada, Energon, Cybertron, and the like. They didn't spend their childhood yearning for toys that could bend their legs or move their arms, because they already got that. So when Hasbro does an all-new version of one of those characters, it's not automatically a huge improvement. In fact, it's often inferior in some ways to the original toy, because it's missing key gimmicks. It's like when they try to pay tribute to G2 Laser Prime. No modern attempt so far has captured the magic or the fun of such a gimmick-laden toy... it had light-up headlights, a light-up sword, a light-up gun, launching missiles, launching disks.
> As for costs, production in Asia remains relatively inexpensive, especially with the shift to Vietnam. Logistics during the pandemic do pose an issue, but not to the level that people often think, and the issue is being increasingly used to justify price increases.

I think the Fwooshcast with Brian Flynn from Super7 should be required reading for all serious toy collectors. There's a wealth of information about the current state of the toy industry. It's so rare that anybody involved in the industry is so frank and so informative. However, it's also over an hour long, so I don't blame anybody for not watching. I do want to quote some of the things Brian Flynn says, because it's relevant to any toy line that's manufactured overseas:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YT0WP8qJ7I

"There's the perception that this stuff costs pennies in China or Vietnam, and it does not. Is China the world's largest economy, now, or second-largest? They still have factories and whatnot, but they are becoming a very affluent country. Things are expensive to make, because every part of this is made by hand. Yes, a machine is injecting the plastic into the mold, but when it comes out, a human is pulling it out of the mold and dropping it into a bucket of water to cool it off. A human with a glove, so they don't get burned, is pulling out 250-degree plastic...and another person is literally sitting there, cutting every part out, sanding all the edges. Another person is assembling it. Every paint deco. Every piece...that's one spray mass for that 180 degrees, one spray mass for that 180. It's one person going (whsssssh) painting half the thing, and (whssssh) painting half the thing, times five thousand pieces. On toys like [the Party Wagon], it's 383 deco operations. When something like this hits production, it's like 80 people assembling them for like a month. Everybody thinks that machines do this."

I don't want to rewatch the whole video right now, but he also talks about how production costs have increased. Not just the cost of plastic itself, but the cost of shipping the finished toys out of factories, the cost of renting containers to be transported aboard container ships, etc.
> As long as gimmick doesn’t overwhelm the toy and the toy is still fun on its own, and as long as there are alternative versions available, then I say, bring on the gimmicks.

That's not a sentiment you and I share. To me, gimmicks drive the price of the toy up at the cost of making it less accurate. That's not something I want or need.

Zob (the kids are still asleep and it's eerily quiet)

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 8:14:22 AM UTC-7, Ob1k...@att.net wrote:

> By that same logic, look at Cyberverse toys they still have toys with spring up armor, and spinning gimmicks, and they're cheaper than the main line for roughly the same sizes.

I'm not an expert on Cyberverse, as I've only bought a handful of them, but in my experience they're all much more cheaply made. The Sharkticon, for example, has no working knees in robot mode and his legs have these huge, hollow cavities. His claws in shark mode are fused to his body. They found a way to add the gimmick by reducing the overall parts count.

Compare that to the mainline toys we've gotten since Siege, where you have metal rivets and pins holding together most joints, a full range of articulation including ankle tilts, and whatever signature accessories the characters need on top of that. Cyberverse Gnaw looks like a bargain bin knockoff compared to somebody like Siege Flywheels.

I mean, if you guys really are missing the gimmicks and wish they would incorporate them back into the toys, then that's totally your prerogative. But I worry what will happen is that this will drive the price of the toys up even more. We've already jumped from $20 to closer to $23 for Deluxes, and that's without the introduction of any new design elements. It's just costs skyrocketing. The writing has been on the wall for a while now. Manufacturers can't continue to absorb the increased costs, which is basically what they've been doing for the last year or so.

As an aside, there's some TikToker who went viral while complaining about dollar stores raising their prices to $1.25. She has been clearly living under a TikTok rock and is oblivious to the changes in the global market. She's talking about how they're making it impossible for people who are pinching pennies to get by. You know what else would make things hard? The dollar store closing down because they were no longer making a profit. Where's my "rolls eyes" emoji...?

I don't think we can return to the days when every (checks notes) Ultra-class toy has electronic sounds and lights and sells for $25 USD. I don't think we can go back to the Beast Wars days where every single toy had some kind of spring-powered gimmick and can retail for ten bucks. Maybe this is a straw man argument, and it's not what you guys are asking for at all. I'm not sure.

Zob (got my broken 1986 Hot Rod, so now it's time to break out the screwdriver and Frankenstein it together with the 1987 version)

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
>
> A lot of fans are nostalgic for the G1 era, but they're highly selective
> in what aspects they're nostalgic for. Younger fans don't understand the
> Geewunners. They're all, "Really? You're nostalgic for fragile toys
> whose windshields always broke off? Robots who were statues from the
> waist down? Budget animation with coloring mistakes out the wazoo?"
> Well, no. Not those aspects of G1 specifically. Toys like Starscream
> and Mirage were bricks, yes, but we *imagined* those bricks being able to
> do the things they did in the show, and not break in half in the process.

This is a straw man argument. Your proposed anti-g1er is not making
arguments anyone makes, except for the poor quality of the cartoon by
todays standards.

The far more common argument is “it’s the same ten characters over and
over, variations on the same toy.”

Which is where the Titans Return line really excelled — a far broader
character selection. And even Combiner Wars gave us something new for a lot
of the most tired characters.

I think it hurt the brand to have Earthrise follow Siege so closely — the
same characters, the same robot modes, frequently very similar vehicle
modes. Sure, you have two basically completely different Optimus molds, but
they look pretty much the same in both modes.

Flipping the order, with Kingdom between Siege and Earthrise, would have
cut down on the character fatigue. (And shuffling a few toys around, like
Kingdom Ultra Magnus)

> So nowadays we have this great, big batch of fans who are nostalgic for
> the stuff they grew up on... Armada, Energon, Cybertron, and the like.
> They didn't spend their childhood yearning for toys that could bend their
> legs or move their arms, because they already got that. So when Hasbro
> does an all-new version of one of those characters, it's not
> automatically a huge improvement. In fact, it's often inferior in some
> ways to the original toy, because it's missing key gimmicks. It's like
> when they try to pay tribute to G2 Laser Prime. No modern attempt so far
> has captured the magic or the fun of such a gimmick-laden toy... it had
> light-up headlights, a light-up sword, a light-up gun, launching missiles, launching disks.

There are some key toys that could be made better with some articulation.
An Armada Megatron who can walk forward, for instance.

But if they can’t improve on the old, maybe it’s time to try something new?

Something new is harder than constantly returning to well-trodden ground.
It would need a cartoon, and likely a merging of the collectors and kid
lines. And cartoons are distributed in some entirely different way now. And
even our current kids line is basically just G1 right now.

>
>> As long as gimmick doesn’t overwhelm the toy and the toy is still fun on
>> its own, and as long as there are alternative versions available, then I
>> say, bring on the gimmicks.
>
> That's not a sentiment you and I share. To me, gimmicks drive the price
> of the toy up at the cost of making it less accurate. That's not
> something I want or need.

You don’t really play with your toys, do you?

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 1:10:31 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> This is a straw man argument.

Okay, sure. But the point is that, when it comes to improving G1, give a new version of a character actual arms and legs and a humanoid body, and it's objectively, measurably better. It's exceedingly rare that somebody will go, "Nope, the 1980's version is still better," because odds are the 1980's version had a tree trunk for legs and flaps for arms. A new version of a character from Beast Wars or Armada or whatever isn't automatically better, simply by merit of existing, because by that point modern articulation was already commonplace.

> I think it hurt the brand to have Earthrise follow Siege so closely — the
> same characters, the same robot modes, frequently very similar vehicle
> modes. Sure, you have two basically completely different Optimus molds, but
> they look pretty much the same in both modes.

Not gonna argue with that. Yes, collectors will buy the same characters again, if a new version comes along and is demonstrably better. I have no problems getting updates for characters we got in, say, 2008 or 2012 or 2014. But Earthrise was basically a toy line filled with characters we'd already bought a year previously.
> But if they can’t improve on the old, maybe it’s time to try something new?

I suspect that Hasbro thinks this whole thing they're doing now—running other characters through the Geewunnification filter—they think this is "new." I realize this isn't what you're describing, but I really think they believe they're being creative and original with all this.

> You don’t really play with your toys, do you?

My focus as a collector has really shifted. A lot of the stuff I buy now (NECA Ninja Turtles, Takara Masterpiece) can't be played with in the normal sense of the word. I suppose I could be in the minority, and maybe Masterpiece toys would be improved enormously with launching missiles and color-change paint. Maybe I'm missing out by not pouring mutagen ooze all over my NECA figures. It's entirely possible.

(With that said, you know what I really miss? The spring-loaded waist on the new He-Man figures. I always loved that as a kid. Even if I knew nothing about a He-Man character, you could always depend on him to wind back and deliver a good, solid power punch. That's a gimmick they should have kept, going forward. It's a tactile and visceral part of playing with the toys that I remember from when I was growing up. And I hope that if they ever get around to doing Cobra Khan, that he can still squirt water out of his mouth.)

Now, I am going to backpedal just a little bit here and say there are *some* gimmicks I've quite enjoyed. Combiner Wars was great. Titans Return was great. I loved swapping around heads and combiner limbs and such. I think I cringe a little bit when people mention gimmicks, because my mind goes to toys like Beast Wars Depth Charge (where the entire robot's body was essentially a tripod disc launcher) or Beast Wars Bonecrusher (entire toy was a missile launcher) or Armada Scavenger (brick with treads). And toys from other toy lines like Power of the Force R5-D4 or Freeze Frame R2-D2, both of whom were ruined by their missile launching capability. Obviously, I'm cherry-picking the worst toys out of years' worth of releases spanning hundreds of toys, but they still stick in my memory as utterly failed gimmicks.

And, really, "gimmick" is a word that can encompass a lot of things. Battery-powered toys that light up and make cheesy sounds. Glow-in-the-dark toys. Spring-loaded missile launchers. Guns that can unfold into little men. Color-changing liquid crystal faction symbols. All of these are gimmicks.. Heck, the ability for a toy to transform is, itself, a gimmick.

The more I think about it, the more I come back to Masters of the Universe. I think the key difference is that a lot of MOTU characters were utterly *defined* by their gimmicks. Mekaneck is literally named after his ability to extend his neck, for example. You release a toy of him that cannot do this, and it's an utter failure. Ram-Man, Man-E-Faces, Scare Glow, they were all like this.

I guess, for me, it comes down to whether a gimmick exists in-universe or not. I didn't need Commander-class Sky Lynx to be a motorized electronic toy just because the 1986 version was, but I wanted him to be able to separate into both a lynx and a dino-bird. I don't really care if the next toy of Nightbeat has a tech specs meter in his chest or not, but he needs to be a working Headmaster. If the character himself is aware of the gimmick's existence, then it needs to be included. So, I'm less likely to get excited about spring-powered missile launchers or a sound-and-lights electronics package, but I will insist on Targetmaster guns and Powermaster engines and Triggerbot weapons and other gimmicks applied to the correct characters.

Zob (the word "gimmick" loses its meaning if you type it too many times... gimmick, gimmick, gimmick)

> I guess, for me, it comes down to whether a gimmick exists in-universe or not. I didn't need Commander-class Sky Lynx to be a motorized electronic toy just because the 1986 version was, but I wanted him to be able to separate into both a lynx and a dino-bird. I don't really care if the next toy of Nightbeat has a tech specs meter in his chest or not, but he needs to be a working Headmaster. If the character himself is aware of the gimmick's existence, then it needs to be included. So, I'm less likely to get excited about spring-powered missile launchers or a sound-and-lights electronics package, but I will insist on Targetmaster guns and Powermaster engines and Triggerbot weapons and other gimmicks applied to the correct characters.

Gimmick does suggest a feature that's cheap, disposable, and unnecessary. Say rather, "toyetic defining characteristic."

The Constructicons are defined by their ability to combine into Devastator. The most lovingly faithful renditions of the characters without the ability to combine would be missing the essence of those characters.

The bots and cons of Armada are defined by their Minicon-powered upgrades, just as the Cybertron characters are defined by their Cyber Key Power enhancements. Hot Shot without his axlezooka isn't fully Hot Shot, nor is Optimus without his Superpants truly Optimus, not when combining with his Container was hammered home in episode after episode as a defining and essential characteristic.

Those spring-powered missile launchers may be surplus to requirements for some, but essential for others, like Armada Starscream/Thundercracker, whose entire character arc culminated in his use of his Minicon to unleash the full force of his missile launchers in a futile one-bot stand against the might of Unicron.

[Why yes, I have been catching up on Legend of the Microns, how astute of you to notice, courtesy of Karyuudo Fansubs' excellent release: https://youtu.be/8u0fe_Vm08U
I disdained the show when it first aired, never making it past the introductory episode, but looking back, it's pure art compared to Machinima or Netflix (or Energon)].

On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 10:43:25 AM UTC-6, Zobovor wrote:
> On Monday, December 27, 2021 at 8:14:22 AM UTC-7, Ob1k...@att.net wrote:
>
> > By that same logic, look at Cyberverse toys they still have toys with spring up armor, and spinning gimmicks, and they're cheaper than the main line for roughly the same sizes.
> I'm not an expert on Cyberverse, as I've only bought a handful of them, but in my experience they're all much more cheaply made. The Sharkticon, for example, has no working knees in robot mode and his legs have these huge, hollow cavities. His claws in shark mode are fused to his body. They found a way to add the gimmick by reducing the overall parts count.
>
> Compare that to the mainline toys we've gotten since Siege, where you have metal rivets and pins holding together most joints, a full range of articulation including ankle tilts, and whatever signature accessories the characters need on top of that. Cyberverse Gnaw looks like a bargain bin knockoff compared to somebody like Siege Flywheels.
>
> I mean, if you guys really are missing the gimmicks and wish they would incorporate them back into the toys, then that's totally your prerogative. But I worry what will happen is that this will drive the price of the toys up even more. We've already jumped from $20 to closer to $23 for Deluxes, and that's without the introduction of any new design elements. It's just costs skyrocketing. The writing has been on the wall for a while now. Manufacturers can't continue to absorb the increased costs, which is basically what they've been doing for the last year or so.
>

Remember when everyone got outraged Deluxes went from $10 to $12 after the DOTM toys started clogging up shelves? Now that seems like the golden age of toy engineering, all the DOTM ha decent detail, more paint, and their Mechtech weapons, but they were slightly smaller than ROTF deluxes, and they cost more!
As for wholesale costs, the average price for a deluxe went from $14 to $15..75, and that's just to independant shops buying 1 to 4 cases. I imagine Walmart and Target get lower prices and can survive on ribbon thin profits off of a toyline, but they don't have to when they get a stranglehold on the in-person market in most areas.

> As an aside, there's some TikToker who went viral while complaining about dollar stores raising their prices to $1.25. She has been clearly living under a TikTok rock and is oblivious to the changes in the global market. She's talking about how they're making it impossible for people who are pinching pennies to get by. You know what else would make things hard? The dollar store closing down because they were no longer making a profit. Where's my "rolls eyes" emoji...?
>

5 below opened up a section of their store for $10 items, they're above $5 now.

> I don't think we can return to the days when every (checks notes) Ultra-class toy has electronic sounds and lights and sells for $25 USD. I don't think we can go back to the Beast Wars days where every single toy had some kind of spring-powered gimmick and can retail for ten bucks. Maybe this is a straw man argument, and it's not what you guys are asking for at all. I'm not sure.
>

It''s just frustrating seeing all forms of launchers going away, toys getting less accessories, and less paint. You can't tell me G1 Triggercon effects or ballpoint pen launcher springsare super cost prohibitive. Even the G2 Cyberjet springless launchers would be fine.

Of course the really atrocious part s how they've given up even the pretense of storing the weapons and accessories on the bot alt mode. In 10 years nobody will have Studio Hot Rod's saw blade, or Tigatron's gut gun.

>
> Zob (got my broken 1986 Hot Rod, so now it's time to break out the screwdriver and Frankenstein it together with the 1987 version)

Identity crisis, he won't know where he came from. Will he be able to hold guns or a Targetmaster?
Just yesterday I informed a guy who insisted his Hot Rod was an original that it was, in fact, a reissue because the hands were the wrong size to be the original.

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 3:41:11 PM UTC-7, Ob1k...@att.net wrote:

> Remember when everyone got outraged Deluxes went from $10 to $12 after the DOTM toys started clogging up shelves? Now that seems like the golden age of toy engineering, all the DOTM ha decent detail, more paint, and their Mechtech weapons, but they were slightly smaller than ROTF deluxes, and they cost more!

I remember them having lots of coupons and buy-one-get-one sales during the Dark of the Moon toy line. I don't think I paid full price for a single one of them. But, that was more the result of bad marketing and character fatigue than development costs.

> I imagine Walmart and Target get lower prices and can survive on ribbon thin profits off of a toyline, but they don't have to when they get a stranglehold on the in-person market in most areas.

I'm sure large retailers can order in bulk and probably get a better deal from manufacturers. Walmart's sales model is kind of interesting, because they're counting on people doing one-stop shopping. You enter the store because they have good prices on the things you need, like eggs and shampoo and toothpaste, but while you're there you also buy new pillows and a Transformer for your nephew's birthday next week. Most of Walmart's sales volume is from groceries, but most of their profit comes from general merchandise.

On rare occasions they'll buy a hot toy and sell it for cheap as a "loss leader," like a Tickle Me Elmo for ten bucks, but that's only so they have something to advertise that will bring people into the stores. By and large, Walmart's retail markup on toys is going to be around 25% or more. A toy line that isn't profitable is going to be a toy line Walmart will stop carrying. We don't want that to happen with Transformers.

> It''s just frustrating seeing all forms of launchers going away, toys getting less accessories, and less paint. You can't tell me G1 Triggercon effects or ballpoint pen launcher springs are super cost prohibitive. Even the G2 Cyberjet springless launchers would be fine.

Hasbro has said in the past at BotCon appearances that they're constantly evaluating toys and making decisions about what to include and what not to. A spring-powered gimmick might cost ten cents per unit, but that's ten cents they could spend on another paint application or something instead.

I hope we get some kind of spring-powered weapons when and if they get around to updating the Triggerbots and Triggercons. Like Mekaneck, these guys were literally named for their gimmick.

> Of course the really atrocious part s how they've given up even the pretense of storing the weapons and accessories on the bot alt mode. In 10 years nobody will have Studio Hot Rod's saw blade, or Tigatron's gut gun.

The gut gun bothers me. I like that they included it, but the lack of weapons storage, *especially* for a Beast Wars character, seems strange.

> Identity crisis, he won't know where he came from. Will he be able to hold guns or a Targetmaster?

I got a good deal on a broken Targetmaster version, so I had to get a 1986 Hot Rod to replace the broken parts. (I could have used a Walmart reissue, but I really didn't like the metal foil sticker on his chest. It's inauthentic.) And I learned that you can't just put a 1987 engine block on a 1986 Hot Rod head and call it good. The head itself was remolded to accommodate the Targetmaster engine mount. Who knew?

Zob (not sure how anybody sitting in the cockpit can see anything with that big horkin' Targetmaster gun in the way, but okay)

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:

“Like Mekaneck, these guys were literally named for their gimmick.”

Solid MOTU reference. I went into my local target on Xmas eve. It was
mass pandemonium, traffic was like getting into and out of an arena
concert, inside was packed like a nightclub, and the shelves were as barren
as a grocery store in Venezuela. I’m not kidding, the shelves in the toy
aisles were completely empty. What shocked me was that the he-man section
was well stocked, literally the only toy line that had inventory. I’d like
to think this was because it was freshly stocked, but I seriously doubt it.
I guess this retro-release did not find a solid footing. Pretty
disappointing, as this was the toy line I loved before I devoted my life to
transformers.

-Banzaitron

On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 11:15:31 PM UTC-7, Anonymous wrote:

> What shocked me was that the he-man section
> was well stocked, literally the only toy line that had inventory. I’d like
> to think this was because it was freshly stocked, but I seriously doubt it.

I wonder, was this the Origins toy line, or the newer-looking one based on the Netflix series with redesigned characters? The Netflix series seems targeted towards kids, and adult collectors just don't seem interested. I have the same thing at my Walmart... gobs and gobs of the new toy line, and I can only assume the buyer for the toy department thought it would be popular like the Origins toys are.

I can assure you that Origins, by contrast, is a hot property. This is the one that looks just like the vintage He-Man toys. The packaging, the sculpts, the colors, it's all meant to strongly evoke the 1980's action figures, only with better articulation. I bought a handful of them as a curiosity in early 2020 and now I'm hooked on the stupid things. They're so hard to find at retail, so I've been eBaying it up or pre-ordering from BBTS or somewhere. I really didn't need another toy line to collect, but that's never stopped me before. Growing up, all my friends had big He-Man collections but I only ever owned a handful of them. This is the collection I've always wanted but never had.

Zob (Orko is still by far my favorite, though)

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 4:28:40 PM UTC, Zobovor wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 11:15:31 PM UTC-7, Anonymous wrote:
>
> > What shocked me was that the he-man section
> > was well stocked, literally the only toy line that had inventory. I’d like
> > to think this was because it was freshly stocked, but I seriously doubt it.
> I wonder, was this the Origins toy line, or the newer-looking one based on the Netflix series with redesigned characters? The Netflix series seems targeted towards kids, and adult collectors just don't seem interested. I have the same thing at my Walmart... gobs and gobs of the new toy line, and I can only assume the buyer for the toy department thought it would be popular like the Origins toys are.
>
> I can assure you that Origins, by contrast, is a hot property. This is the one that looks just like the vintage He-Man toys. The packaging, the sculpts, the colors, it's all meant to strongly evoke the 1980's action figures, only with better articulation. I bought a handful of them as a curiosity in early 2020 and now I'm hooked on the stupid things. They're so hard to find at retail, so I've been eBaying it up or pre-ordering from BBTS or somewhere. I really didn't need another toy line to collect, but that's never stopped me before. Growing up, all my friends had big He-Man collections but I only ever owned a handful of them. This is the collection I've always wanted but never had.
>
>
> Zob (Orko is still by far my favorite, though)

I last checked into the He-Man brand with their failed 2002 reboot - great toys, limited articulation, poor reception - and I vaguely followed the news about the painful slog that was MattyCollector’s website. Frankly I’m surprised the powers that be thought the brand worthy of a revival, much less three separate lines at retail.

I’ve caught up on both Netflix series. The adult-oriented Kevin Smith continuation is proof positive that nostalgia alone cannot compensate for a compelling character or storyline. It wasn’t the abomination of the WfC series, not with that level of celebrity voice talent attached to it, but it ultimately felt like an empty rote exercise in dead horse flogging.

The kid-oriented CGI reboot is clearly not for people of my generation, and as such, I was quite prepared to actively dislike it. And yet, surprisingly, I enjoyed it to the extent that I think it’s the best incarnation of the brand ever, including the original series. It’s clever, well-written, well-acted, and beautifully animated. The music is engaging and serves the show well. The tone of the show is respectful of the property and by extension, its fans, without trapping itself in the prison of continuity and nostalgia. Every character gets a chance to shine, and their relationships feel organic and true. In an age where hollow corporate-mandated diversity pervades all media, to the extent that it seems calculated to pander to certain demographics while deliberately engendering controversy among old school fans, this new He-Man series does it respectfully and does it right. By the time the premise of the show kicks in and every character gets to access the Power of Grayskull for their power-up, it doesn’t feel forced, it feels thrilling.

A shame the toy line isn’t moving, and hopefully that doesn’t impact the future of the show.

If the creators of this He-Man reboot were to helm the next Transformers series, that would be something to look forward to. Plus they could bring David Kaye back to the franchise, after his stellar work as Cringer.

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 11:15:31 PM UTC-7, Anonymous wrote:
>
>> What shocked me was that the he-man section
>> was well stocked, literally the only toy line that had inventory. I’d like
>> to think this was because it was freshly stocked, but I seriously doubt it.
>
> I wonder, was this the Origins toy line, or the newer-looking one based
> on the Netflix series with redesigned characters?

It was both lines. I’m glad to hear that the retro release is doing well.
I guess they must have just restocked them then, because there were tons of
them on the shelves. It seemed like everything MOTU lines was fully
stocked. This gives me hope for humanity if they are selling well.

-Banzaitron

On Wednesday, December 29, 2021 at 10:28:40 AM UTC-6, Zobovor wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 28, 2021 at 11:15:31 PM UTC-7, Anonymous wrote:
>
> > What shocked me was that the he-man section
> > was well stocked, literally the only toy line that had inventory. I’d like
> > to think this was because it was freshly stocked, but I seriously doubt it.
> I wonder, was this the Origins toy line, or the newer-looking one based on the Netflix series with redesigned characters? The Netflix series seems targeted towards kids, and adult collectors just don't seem interested. I have the same thing at my Walmart... gobs and gobs of the new toy line, and I can only assume the buyer for the toy department thought it would be popular like the Origins toys are.
>
> I can assure you that Origins, by contrast, is a hot property. This is the one that looks just like the vintage He-Man toys. The packaging, the sculpts, the colors, it's all meant to strongly evoke the 1980's action figures, only with better articulation. I bought a handful of them as a curiosity in early 2020 and now I'm hooked on the stupid things. They're so hard to find at retail, so I've been eBaying it up or pre-ordering from BBTS or somewhere. I really didn't need another toy line to collect, but that's never stopped me before. Growing up, all my friends had big He-Man collections but I only ever owned a handful of them. This is the collection I've always wanted but never had.
>
>
> Zob (Orko is still by far my favorite, though)

Origins is clogging up the shelves here, Revelations isn't doing much better. I bought 7 Origins Battle Cat for $25 and resold them for $10 a pop. The store got a massive influx of Heman and Skeletor and those are the characters you think would sell well, but they just got too damn many of them. It's like DOTM toys back in the day, where the store just got a huge launch and didn't ever see anything else.

Also you can't just say "The Netflix series" because there are two Netflix series that are very different and both a disappointment to Heman fans.

I saw the absolute nicest Omega Supreme at work yesterday, everythng was working and pristine. some guy traded in a massive glut of boxed Transformers.. Also the nicest Metroplex.

On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-7, Ob1k...@att.net wrote:
> Origins is clogging up the shelves here, Revelations isn't doing much better. I bought 7 Origins Battle Cat for $25 and resold them for $10 a pop. The store got a massive influx of Heman and Skeletor and those are the characters you think would sell well, but they just got too damn many of them. It's like DOTM toys back in the day, where the store just got a huge launch and didn't ever see anything else.

Well, He-Man and Skeletor ship in their own case assortments. They're not the characters who are hard to find. It's everybody else. Any character who isn't He-Man or Skeletor ships in an assortment together, and they tend to fly off the pegs.

I think the shipping and distribution problems from this year resulted in stores getting freight late that was actually intended for the holidays.
My Walmart was still getting shipments of Halloween merchandise in December. We were still receiving Christmas trees a few days ago. The stuff was probably just sitting on a container ship for months, waiting to be unloaded.

So, I wonder if the glut of He-Man toys we're all seeing everywhere is the result of a bulk shipment that was meant to arrive much earlier. I mean, I'm not a Masters of the Universe apologist. If the line is performing poorly, then I'll freely admit it. But, everything I've seen, in my own personal experience, is that it's in very popular demand. I get Brickseekers swarming my toy department almost every week, demanding to know where the cases of freight are that we just received the night before, only to discover that somebody beat them to it and cleared off all the pegs. I've had to order most of mine on BBTS. I work in a toy department, and even I can't get my hands on them most of the time.

The toy line is so popular that even the PUNCH TABS that pop out of the card when you hang them on the pegs are worth money. Seriously. Check eBay. It will blow your mind.

> Also you can't just say "The Netflix series" because there are two Netflix series that are very different and both a disappointment to Heman fans.

Well, the Kevin Smith show is called Revelations and the toy line carries the same name. The other toy line is just called "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe," which is a name that was already taken. It's like having two different toy lines called Robots in Disguise.

Still, you're right and I appreciate the correction. I was being lazy.

> I saw the absolute nicest Omega Supreme at work yesterday, everythng was working and pristine. some guy traded in a massive glut of boxed Transformers. Also the nicest Metroplex.

Let me know if you come across Pretender Iguanus, because he's super hard to find on eBay right now. Also, please keep an eye out for Micromaster Tracer (black helicopter) and Micromaster Blaze Master (gold helicopter) because I can't find either of them on eBay with their actual rotor blades intact.

Zob (bought the MOTU Wind Raider vehicle today, and I regret nothing)

On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 9:47:37 PM UTC-6, Zobovor wrote:
> On Friday, December 31, 2021 at 8:05:09 PM UTC-7, Ob1k...@att.net wrote:
>
> > Origins is clogging up the shelves here, Revelations isn't doing much better. I bought 7 Origins Battle Cat for $25 and resold them for $10 a pop. The store got a massive influx of Heman and Skeletor and those are the characters you think would sell well, but they just got too damn many of them. It's like DOTM toys back in the day, where the store just got a huge launch and didn't ever see anything else.
> Well, He-Man and Skeletor ship in their own case assortments. They're not the characters who are hard to find. It's everybody else. Any character who isn't He-Man or Skeletor ships in an assortment together, and they tend to fly off the pegs.
>

A friend from the monthly toyshow was so ecstatic he found Mosquitor at Target, it was the first MOTU Origins he'd seen in store that wasn't Heman, Skeletor, Teela, or Man at Arms since September

> I think the shipping and distribution problems from this year resulted in stores getting freight late that was actually intended for the holidays.
> My Walmart was still getting shipments of Halloween merchandise in December. We were still receiving Christmas trees a few days ago. The stuff was probably just sitting on a container ship for months, waiting to be unloaded..
>

Nah, not this time. The Heman has been pretty well stocked at all times, it's just the same few characters. The stores keep opening up new cases and it's all the same cases. They have over 100 Heman in stock and nearly as many Skeletor at the one closest to my other job.

> So, I wonder if the glut of He-Man toys we're all seeing everywhere is the result of a bulk shipment that was meant to arrive much earlier. I mean, I'm not a Masters of the Universe apologist. If the line is performing poorly, then I'll freely admit it. But, everything I've seen, in my own personal experience, is that it's in very popular demand. I get Brickseekers swarming my toy department almost every week, demanding to know where the cases of freight are that we just received the night before, only to discover that somebody beat them to it and cleared off all the pegs. I've had to order most of mine on BBTS. I work in a toy department, and even I can't get my hands on them most of the time.
>

Tigatron was nowhere, then suddenly everywhere all at once. I've still not bought the new Rhinox because there's no shortage anymore and my T30 is really good. Back in August Rhinox showed up for a day and was gone, and now he's everywhere so I don't feel the FOMO.

> The toy line is so popular that even the PUNCH TABS that pop out of the card when you hang them on the pegs are worth money. Seriously. Check eBay. It will blow your mind.
> > Also you can't just say "The Netflix series" because there are two Netflix series that are very different and both a disappointment to Heman fans.
> Well, the Kevin Smith show is called Revelations and the toy line carries the same name. The other toy line is just called "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe," which is a name that was already taken. It's like having two different toy lines called Robots in Disguise.
>
> Still, you're right and I appreciate the correction. I was being lazy.
> > I saw the absolute nicest Omega Supreme at work yesterday, everythng was working and pristine. some guy traded in a massive glut of boxed Transformers. Also the nicest Metroplex.
> Let me know if you come across Pretender Iguanus, because he's super hard to find on eBay right now. Also, please keep an eye out for Micromaster Tracer (black helicopter) and Micromaster Blaze Master (gold helicopter) because I can't find either of them on eBay with their actual rotor blades intact.
>

Nah, was just the first few years of cars, BW large transmetals, and Autobot cassettes. Almost everything was perfect except Afterburner was missing from Computron, the hands were missing from Predaking, and Skywarp had G2 Starscream launchers and missiles for some unknown reason.
https://www.facebook.com/TimeWarpToyStore/photos/pcb.7647827825243411/7647824275243766
https://www.facebook.com/TimeWarpToyStore/photos/pcb.7656986050994255/7656985794327614
https://www.facebook.com/TimeWarpToyStore/photos/pcb.7647291248630402/7647288908630636/

>
> Zob (bought the MOTU Wind Raider vehicle today, and I regret nothing)

Bought a bunch of clearance sky-sled, $5.50 each, sold to my job for $8 each, and they're asking for $12 which is still half retail and they're not fast movers. I had tons of MOTU as a kid and I just don't care about the toys anymore like I do Transformers. Today I buy them if I know someone who needs them or they're insanely cheap and nothing else. The skysled andbattlecats were just to give Walmart shelf space to put out more and possibly un-bury the new stuff

Off to build my Lego probe droid with my 1 day off.

On Saturday, January 1, 2022 at 10:26:37 AM UTC-7, Ob1k...@att.net wrote:

> A friend from the monthly toyshow was so ecstatic he found Mosquitor at Target, it was the first MOTU Origins he'd seen in store that wasn't Heman, Skeletor, Teela, or Man at Arms since September

I just barely got Mosquitor at Target myself. (Originally, I was only going to collect the characters I really wanted, but I seem to have fallen down a rabbit hole. The rabbits here are nice, and they're soft and cuddly, and they feed me carrots...)

> Tigatron was nowhere, then suddenly everywhere all at once. I've still not bought the new Rhinox because there's no shortage anymore and my T30 is really good. Back in August Rhinox showed up for a day and was gone, and now he's everywhere so I don't feel the FOMO.

Honestly, you're not missing much with Rhinox. He's not great.

Zob (remolding the 2014 toy to make it F.O.S.S.I.L. ready would have been a better move)