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arts / rec.arts.startrek.current / Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)

SubjectAuthor
* ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)Faux Dameron
+* Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)John Crane
|`- Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)Faux Dameron
`* Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)J.B. Nicholson
 `* Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)John Crane
  `* Having a tough time getting into ST:PicardJ.B. Nicholson
   +- Re: Having a tough time getting into ST:PicardAnt
   `- Re: Having a tough time getting into ST:PicardFaux Dameron

1
Subject: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
From: Faux Dameron
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Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 22:34 UTC
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I've always wants to see a series with scenes of people in the Star Trek
universe living real lives outside of Starfleet and now we have it, but it
doesn't make sense.

I'm not going to get into the economic questions. That's a huge issue, but
I do want to point out something that seem to me missing.

1. Where is Lore's body? If they needed a fully working android, they could
have studied him to learn how to create a new body for Data's consciousness.

2. What happened to Juliana Tainer? (aka Data's Mother). Surely her secret
would have been known by Starfleet via official ship logs. Even if they
decided not to tell her, when/if she "died" she could have been studied.

3. Why beam attackers into Dahj's apartment when they could have just
beamed her into a shielded cell? Even with her android Kung Fu, speed, and
strength, she couldn't break through shields. They could have even just
beamed out her head. Sure, that's nasty but it would have given them access
to her brain without needed to worry if she would fight them.

This group is probably dead but the #1 way to bring back usenet is to use
it.

x-posted to alt.startrek


Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
From: John Crane
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 01:37 UTC
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Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
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On 02/16/2020 04:34 PM, Faux Dameron wrote:
I've always wants to see a series with scenes of people in the Star Trek
universe living real lives outside of Starfleet and now we have it, but it
doesn't make sense.

I'm not going to get into the economic questions. That's a huge issue, but
I do want to point out something that seem to me missing.

1. Where is Lore's body? If they needed a fully working android, they could
have studied him to learn how to create a new body for Data's consciousness.

2. What happened to Juliana Tainer? (aka Data's Mother). Surely her secret
would have been known by Starfleet via official ship logs. Even if they
decided not to tell her, when/if she "died" she could have been studied.

3. Why beam attackers into Dahj's apartment when they could have just
beamed her into a shielded cell? Even with her android Kung Fu, speed, and
strength, she couldn't break through shields. They could have even just
beamed out her head. Sure, that's nasty but it would have given them access
to her brain without needed to worry if she would fight them.

This group is probably dead but the #1 way to bring back usenet is to use
it.

x-posted to alt.startrek

Damn good questions!

Also, the Romulan Ninja Commandos seemed very unprepared.
Assuming they were forced to beam-in for some unstated reason, they would have been better prepared. After all, they KNEW what she was.

I guess, they call it 'dramatic license'?




Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
From: J.B. Nicholson
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 02:01 UTC
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From: jbn...@forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 02:01:01 +0000 (UTC)
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Faux Dameron <fauxdameron@mailfence.com> wrote:
3. Why beam attackers into Dahj's apartment when they could have
just beamed her into a shielded cell? Even with her android Kung Fu,
speed, and strength, she couldn't break through shields. They could
have even just beamed out her head. Sure, that's nasty but it would
have given them access to her brain without needed to worry if she
would fight them.

This question exposes a plot hole so great it undermines the major
mystery of the series (or at least the major mystery of this
season). The moment the Romulans do as you suggest there's virtually
no mystery that would propel Picard to investigate and likely no
show. That's a big problem for the writers.

The only reason I can think of requires taking a production point of
view which means the show messed up when they laid out the major plot
points.  Perhaps laying out mysterious characteristics over a few
episodes and tying in information from other Soong-type androids into
a larger picture would have helped make this make more sense. But I
think that TNG knowledge and consideration are well beyond what Star
Trek: Picard staff are willing to aim for. I don't think the writers
really watched TNG. Picard's life was saved many times by many people
(the heart surgeons who replaced his heart with an artificial heart
after he recklessly got into a barfight with some Nausicaans,
countless fellow Starfleeters including Riker his former
second-in-command, Q since the de Lancie Q both introduced and saved
Picard from the Borg early on and let Picard see what his life would
be if he had made safer choices when he was young, etc.) so why the
big interest in Data (whom Picard merely tolerated when they served
together)? Why the years-long mourning?

This group is probably dead but the #1 way to bring back usenet is
to use it.

I agree; widely-distributed netnews groups are much more censor
resistant than any so-called "social media" website (which are each
single points of censorship). At least here you know your posts are
being propagated and hidden only for that reader.


Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
From: John Crane
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Organization: Thundernews
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 15:00 UTC
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Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
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On 02/17/2020 08:01 PM, J.B. Nicholson wrote:
Faux Dameron <fauxdameron@mailfence.com> wrote:
3. Why beam attackers into Dahj's apartment when they could have
just beamed her into a shielded cell? Even with her android Kung Fu,
speed, and strength, she couldn't break through shields. They could
have even just beamed out her head. Sure, that's nasty but it would
have given them access to her brain without needed to worry if she
would fight them.

This question exposes a plot hole so great it undermines the major
mystery of the series (or at least the major mystery of this
season). The moment the Romulans do as you suggest there's virtually
no mystery that would propel Picard to investigate and likely no
show. That's a big problem for the writers.

The only reason I can think of requires taking a production point of
view which means the show messed up when they laid out the major plot
points.  Perhaps laying out mysterious characteristics over a few
episodes and tying in information from other Soong-type androids into
a larger picture would have helped make this make more sense. But I
think that TNG knowledge and consideration are well beyond what Star
Trek: Picard staff are willing to aim for. I don't think the writers
really watched TNG. Picard's life was saved many times by many people
(the heart surgeons who replaced his heart with an artificial heart
after he recklessly got into a barfight with some Nausicaans,
countless fellow Starfleeters including Riker his former
second-in-command, Q since the de Lancie Q both introduced and saved
Picard from the Borg early on and let Picard see what his life would
be if he had made safer choices when he was young, etc.) so why the
big interest in Data (whom Picard merely tolerated when they served
together)? Why the years-long mourning?

This group is probably dead but the #1 way to bring back usenet is
to use it.

I agree; widely-distributed netnews groups are much more censor
resistant than any so-called "social media" website (which are each
single points of censorship). At least here you know your posts are
being propagated and hidden only for that reader.

  As I stated in my earlier post, this major plot hole, could in fact be explained later.   A similar thing happened when I was struck by the fact that enemy combatants (the Romulan Ninja Commandos) could just beam down so near SFHQ undetected (an unobserved by the presumably many video recording devices)  I thought that was a gaping plot hole too.  But later it was explained that they had help from an insider in SF.  You even hear her complain later about the sloppy video editing job her accomplices did when they left reflection of a disruptor flash.

On the years-long mourning... I think Data was only a part of it. Picard's life was defined by SF.  And to have it turn into (in his eyes) the antithesis of what SF should be... was just too much for him to bear.  He disconnected from everything.

-John


Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
From: Faux Dameron
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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 19:42 UTC
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Subject: Re: ST: Picard Questions (minor spoilers)
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I guess, they call it 'dramatic license'?

You know what would have been easier? A sniper. We know that sniper weapons
existed in DS9.

But, you're probably right. I remember a quote from Berman et al. that said
that they never let continuity get in the way of a good story (or any story
for that matter). The same goes for logic. :)


Subject: Having a tough time getting into ST:Picard
From: J.B. Nicholson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
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Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:26 UTC
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From: jbn...@forestfield.org (J.B. Nicholson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Having a tough time getting into ST:Picard
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John Crane <john@localhost.net> wrote:
On the years-long mourning... I think Data was only a part of it.
Picard's life was defined by SF.  And to have it turn into (in his
eyes) the antithesis of what SF should be... was just too much for
him to bear.  He disconnected from everything.

Capt. Picard got over big conspiracies before (like the 1st season
creatures infesting Starfleet admiralty which included making a lot of
small maneuvering over years, a plan so complex it required Data to
see it all). The show needs to explain how he lost this ability but
the new writers are incapable of delivering that because that requires
doing the character research I doubt they've done. Then there are plot
points that ruin episodes or fundamentals of the larger plot. No,
there is too much bad writing on ST:Picard to ignore and the latest
episode is confirmation of this.

Gratuitous gore starts the show this week and it does nothing to get
the viewer interested in the character or the episode's plot. I'm
reminded of using gore as a distractive crutch for weak writing. Then
there's an ongoing theme of doing away with ethical tales (which is
what Star Trek was known for for decades). Then there is the meager
character exploration punctuated with unengaging action scenes. The
action is easy for me to dismiss because the show gives me no reason
to be emotionally invested in the characters.

Picard is a very different man post-TNG. In the movies he's hot-headed
and not at all reflective like he was before (one reason TNG movies
are bad; the last episode of TNG would have been a great movie). Now
Picard is too old to believably do the action scenes he's in and the
show won't give us the kinds of plots which older people can carry off
well (character-driven drama, shows where a life change happens and we
see someone dealing with the consequences, coming to grips with).

I can see why people would see a few episodes of this and not want to
pay to see another.


Subject: Re: Having a tough time getting into ST:Picard
From: Ant
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Subject: Re: Having a tough time getting into ST:Picard
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Yeah, I am having a hard time getting into it. I had that problem with
Discovery too until S2 got better, but it is still not good as the old
Star Trek. :( Both are just prettier with worsen story/plot. :(

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Subject: Re: Having a tough time getting into ST:Picard
From: Faux Dameron
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J.B. Nicholson wrote:

I can see why people would see a few episodes of this and not want to
pay to see another.

I literally signed up for Prime Video just for this show since I can't get
Amazon Prime where I live.


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