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interests / alt.toys.transformers / How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

SubjectAuthor
* How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat
+* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Zobovor
|`* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat
| `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Zobovor
|  +- Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Joseph Bardsley
|  `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Travoltron
|   +* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Joseph Bardsley
|   |`- Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Zobovor
|   `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat
|    `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Zobovor
|     `- Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat
`* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?MWG
 `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat
  `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Zobovor
   `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat
    `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Zobovor
     `* Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats
      `- Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?Joseph Bardsley

1
How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
Newsgroups: alt.toys.transformers
Subject: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 23:02:55 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Sun, 16 Jan 2022 23:02 UTC

Part of what makes G1 uninteresting to me is that for all practical
purposes, the story is done, and so we keep getting retreads of the same
thing over and over. Fine, now there’s an AllSpark (not a good addition, by
the way), and the Netflix WFC broke new ground by also retreading bits of
Beast Wars, but gets major points off for using existing beloved characters
in entirely wrong ways (Skorponok and Sky Lynx).

Given where we are, how could you continue the G1 cartoon with a new series
that would be simultaneously approachable to new fans and lapsed fans, of
interest to collectors, and support a toy line?

Major beloved characters that define the brand are dead and gone: Prowl,
Ironhide, etc. other characters are changed: Megatron is now Galvatron,
Starscream is available for guest appearances only, Skywarp and
Thundercracker are unrecognizable and who knows about Insecticons. You can
roll back some of the changes, but then you lose other fans who want
Galvatron.

We’ve just had definitive editions of a lot of the core Season 1 and 2
cast, so a Season 2.5 series wouldn’t have a toy line behind it, along with
the usual prequel problems.

Also, modern cartoons tend to have higher consequences, and so Mirage’s
best bet is to just turn invisible and walk away before writers realize
that he is available for death. Sparkplug might want to join him.

Putting it right after S4 would mean an unrecognizable Earth (what is going
on in the Netherlands in “The Ultimate Weapon”, where French thugs are
regularly attacking windmills protected by laser wielding grandmothers).

A time skip puts us in an even more futuristic Earth, and destroys the
“Robots In Disguise” angle a bit — your family car cannot be a transformer
as it doesn’t hover.

Time travel shenanigans requires knowing and caring about the original
timeline, which would kill the “new viewer friendly” aspect.

The G1 toy line continued in unexpected ways, and you would have to either
embrace that or ignore it, and either approach alienates people. You either
have characters unavailable, their futures ignored, or a bizarre mish-mash
where they were able to save Prowl, but not his alt-mode, Bludgeon is an
undead samurai with a transformer inside, Optimus has a guy in his stomach,
and there are micromasters getting underfoot (which means we would get very
familiar with the character models of everyone else’s shins).

How have other long running franchises handled this?

The Star Trek approach has mostly been to jump ahead in the timeline, and
due to the characters lifespans generally having no direct ties. (There’s
also the Kelvin timeline, but it seems mostly floundered). But nothing
about Star Trek ever required it to be grounded in our world — it does
better not being grounded, because it can tell stories about us now while
maintaining a distance to avoid visceral reactions… although they might
have gone too far as finding a straight white male in the current season
seems hard, but I suppose they can find one in an abandoned vessel in
cryogenic storage*)

Star Wars has done prequels, some uninspired sequels (The Force Awakens
basically is a remake of A New Hope, The Last Jedi is a deconstruction of
the hero myth of A New Hope, and The Rise Of Skywalker just sucked), and
interstitial movies and TV shows to fill the gaps. That works better when
there is a strict story that parts are getting fit into, so people can
follow along. Transformers doesn’t really have that. An anthology series
skipping around and changing setting every few episodes would just be
confusing.

Marvel seems to be attempting to reinvent itself in a direct continuation,
as actors age out of roles, by pulling in new characters — that’s not a
very relevant model for Transformers.

Doctor Who mostly ignores continuity when it is good, but it’s also pretty
episodic with nothing changing between episodes. Except when it isn’t. And
it had a time jump to completely change the background setting, so when we
are introduced to a Dalek in the first series of New Who, all you need to
know is that they were bad, and that was presented in the story. (It’s
gotten very bogged down in continuity lately, and is not great because of
that). But mostly, every episode has a few returning characters and then a
brand new cast, so it’s easy to ignore continuity (and they should get at
it again)

——
*: I kid, a bit. And as someone who has trouble recognizing faces, I
applaud the diversity, as I everyone is easy to recognize. Contrast this
with The Expanse where everyone has dark hair and a beard and is shot in
bad lighting so even though it’s a moderately diverse cast everyone still
looks like everyone else.

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Mon, 17 Jan 2022 01:08 UTC

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 4:02:58 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> Part of what makes G1 uninteresting to me is that for all practical
> purposes, the story is done, and so we keep getting retreads of the same
> thing over and over. Fine, now there’s an AllSpark (not a good addition, by
> the way), and the Netflix WFC broke new ground by also retreading bits of
> Beast Wars, but gets major points off for using existing beloved characters
> in entirely wrong ways (Skorponok and Sky Lynx).
>
> Given where we are, how could you continue the G1 cartoon with a new series
> that would be simultaneously approachable to new fans and lapsed fans, of
> interest to collectors, and support a toy line?

Okay, so remember the first time they brought TMNT back? It was 2003, and there was this new toy line and cartoon series, and even though there was the usual "let's redesign everybody to make them slightly different" routine, it was also somewhat familiar.

And the cartoon show was, basically, "Mirage Comics: the Animated Series."

The 1980's Ninja Turtles cartoon played fast and loose with the elements it borrowed from. Yeah, there were four turtle ninja guys, and there was a chick named April, and there was a dude named Baxter Stockman, but everything else was up for grabs. The bad guy who the turtles killed in the first issue was reinvented into the main villain of the series. The weird brain aliens were thrown in there, and the Mousers, and just about everything from the early issues except for Cerberus (because Dave Sim) and Renet (because boobs). But the 2003 cartoon was a much more strict reading of the original Mirage Comics. (Yeah, they made changes and went to some weird places, but if you're very selective about the details, the point stands.)

So, in all honesty, and I say this in a totally non-ironic way, what I want to see is Transformers Marvel Comics: the Animated Series. All the dead Autobots hanging from the ceiling like slabs of beef. Skids falls in love with Charlene. The Pretender Classics discover Primus in the heart of Cybertron. Optimus Prime kills himself over a video game. A continuously rotating menagerie of Decepticon leaders. I want it all.

Obviously there are legal elements they'd probably have to work out. The Spider-Man cameo likely couldn't happen. I'd be fine if they didn't adapt the G.I. Joe crossover. But surely they could work something out with Circuit Breaker. I mean, she's basically stuck in legal limbo, since no adaptations or reprints can even feature her, but at some point Marvel just needs to say, "Sure, pay us $20,000 and we'll let you use this character that we haven't done anything with since 1991."

It would be a great new-but-familiar take. It would take us all the way from 1984 to 1991 as far as the oldskool characters, and depending on how many seasons they produced (seven would be great; one for each year of the original toy line), that's potentially a lot of new toys. The voice cast could be all-new. A brand-new take on G1 Optimus and Megatron.

They could make little changes, of course. Like, say, Starscream survives the Omega Supreme assault. Buster gets killed and Spike has to shoulder that burden. Keep it the same in broad strokes, but make little changes so the longtime fans still get to be surprised.

However. Let's explore your ideas as well, since mine is likely never, ever going to happen in real life.

> Time travel shenanigans requires knowing and caring about the original
> timeline, which would kill the “new viewer friendly” aspect.

You would have to balance remaining true to the continuity with Hasbro's current desire to keep popular characters like Optimus and Megatron in circulation. I think time travel would be the only real way to do this.

I mean, when you look at the toy lines we've gotten recently, it's just this wild mix of characters. Spinister and Snapdragon occupying the same shelf space as Ironhide and Cliffjumper. That couldn't happen in a proper G1 universe.

So, let's say there's a story where there's some big, huge disaster coming (maybe Unicron, maybe something else) and a select few characters go back in time to try to stop it from happening. Then you get to play mix-and-match with different eras. That's why this guy turns into a car from the 1980's, that guy is a futuristic hovercar, and that guy over there can't transform because something something Nucleon.

Realistically, that's how you get a show (and therefore a toy line) that includes Optimus and Megatron and Bumblebee and Starscream, plus whatever random obscure G1 characters are on the docket (Backstreet, Octopunch, etc.)

Of course, that's basically what the War for Cybertron series was, and a whole bunch of people disliked it.

> How have other long running franchises handled this?

Basically every single franchise hits the Magic Reset Button on a long enough timeline. Until a few years ago, the only ones that had never really done this were Star Trek and Star Wars. That was one of the things I loved about Star Trek... every single story ever written took place in the same continuity as every other story. I'm sure it was a continuity nightmare for the writers, which is probably one of the reasons they did the reboot. That, and so they could cast young, strapping actors in the roles of Kirk and Spock.

So now the only one left is Star Wars. Oh, and maybe Doctor Who, which cleverly had actor replacement written into its very premise. That's honestly brilliant.
Or, I guess you could go the Kevin Smith route, and do a good faith continuation of the show with modern elements, à la Masters of the Universe: Revelations. I guess it would be a hypothetical season five, and the backgrounds would be packed full of 1988 characters, and it might involve Optimus finding the Nucleon early. The first episode would be establishing the status quo, the second and third episodes would involve moving pieces into place (Galvatron drinks the Nucleon and gets retro-mutated back to Megatron; Starscream is ressurected; the Autobots find the charred-but-intact mausoleum in space and recover the bodies of Ironhide, Prowl, etc.) and by episode four or so you have the new status quo with old characters mingling with newer ones. Not elegant, but I suppose if you threw in enough contemporary jokes ("whose idea was it to make Arcee pink, anyway?" and ""Are you sure 'peace through tyrrany' was Megatro's motto? I thought it was 'Decepticons, retreeeeeeeat!'") it would appeal to the longtime fans as well as the younger crowd.

Zob ("Starscream is a ghost? How does that even work? He's a robot!")

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
Newsgroups: alt.toys.transformers
Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 04:14:50 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Mon, 17 Jan 2022 04:14 UTC

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 4:02:58 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>

> Of course, that's basically what the War for Cybertron series was, and a
> whole bunch of people disliked it.

I’m still not sure what WFC was, actually. A mixture of retread, reboot and
prequel with time travel shenanigans and random characters used badly.

>
>> How have other long running franchises handled this?
>
> Basically every single franchise hits the Magic Reset Button on a long
> enough timeline. Until a few years ago, the only ones that had never
> really done this were Star Trek and Star Wars. That was one of the
> things I loved about Star Trek... every single story ever written took
> place in the same continuity as every other story. I'm sure it was a
> continuity nightmare for the writers, which is probably one of the
> reasons they did the reboot. That, and so they could cast young,
> strapping actors in the roles of Kirk and Spock.

Except Star Trek also has the original universe chugging along, where they
recast Spock.

> So now the only one left is Star Wars. Oh, and maybe Doctor Who, which
> cleverly had actor replacement written into its very premise. That's honestly brilliant.

That came along out of necessity, they just stuck with it. It was brilliant
though.

The New Trek universe is basically like the Peter Cushing “Dr. Who” movies
now that I think about it.

> Or, I guess you could go the Kevin Smith route, and do a good faith
> continuation of the show with modern elements, à la Masters of the
> Universe: Revelations.

Is that considered successful now? I remember a lot of people hated it
because there were girls and stuff. I liked it, but not being a huge MOTU
fan, I don’t know how it played to them. There was a shift towards what
those fans would want by the end, but it took a long time to get there.

>I guess it would be a hypothetical season five, and the backgrounds would
> be packed full of 1988 characters, and it might involve Optimus finding
> the Nucleon early. The first episode would be establishing the status
> quo, the second and third episodes would involve moving pieces into place
> (Galvatron drinks the Nucleon and gets retro-mutated back to Megatron;
> Starscream is ressurected; the Autobots find the charred-but-intact
> mausoleum in space and recover the bodies of Ironhide, Prowl, etc.) and
> by episode four or so you have the new status quo with old characters
> mingling with newer ones. Not elegant, but I suppose if you threw in
> enough contemporary jokes ("whose idea was it to make Arcee pink,
> anyway?" and ""Are you sure 'peace through tyrrany' was Megatro's motto?
> I thought it was 'Decepticons, retreeeeeeeat!'") it would appeal to the
> longtime fans as well as the younger crowd.

I think a time jump to skip past all the 1988 and later toys who can just
be introduced as a thing that was popular for a while with little fanfare,
and then handwave the establishment of the new status quo away? And gives a
reason for new bodies/toys when we just got a perfect Smokescreen, etc.

That leaves Earth too advanced. And a need to pick either a Galvatron or
Megatron. And no Starscream. (Stupid or not, Starscream as a ghost is
canon… how would we feel about Starscream possessing someone else, long
term? And retconning the reformatting of Megatron into Galvatron to be a
copy rather than a modification — the original could be found in a chunk of
Unicron… oof, too much)

>
> Zob ("Starscream is a ghost? How does that even work? He's a robot!")
>

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Mon, 17 Jan 2022 04:40 UTC

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 9:14:52 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> Except Star Trek also has the original universe chugging along, where they
> recast Spock.

Star Trek is as much a mythology as it is a cast of characters. Next Generations didn't instantly fail just because there was no Kirk and Spock in it (yes, I know Spock appeared in "Unification" parts 1 and 2, but that was like five seasons later). Enterprise failed because Trek was heavily saturated on TV (at one point didn't they have the final season of Next Generation and the middle of Deep Space Nine AND the first season of Voyager on all at once?) and they were recycling too many scripts.

I've strayed from my point. My point is that Trek is a world as much as it is memorable characters. Yes, it's Kirk and Spock and Picard and all them, but it's also universal translators and photon torpedos and "phasers on stun" and "warp speed" and "beam me up." (Actually, I think that's another reason Enterprise failed. As a prequel series, the technology went backwards instead of forwards.) Create interestng new characters and put them in that world, and it's worth watching. Do sad, tired character retreads and it's less interesting.

Trying to bring back Trek by casting an aged, pathetic Patrick Stewart and a sagging fifty-year-old Jeri Ryan was a horrible idea. Seven of Nine is now older than Captain Picard was when we first saw Captain Picard. Let that sink in.

> I think a time jump to skip past all the 1988 and later toys who can just
> be introduced as a thing that was popular for a while with little fanfare,
> and then handwave the establishment of the new status quo away? And gives a
> reason for new bodies/toys when we just got a perfect Smokescreen, etc.

There are so many ways to bring back older characters if they want to get creative. Take a page out of Marvel Comics and say a few Autobots copied their minds onto a crystal just in case they got killed in battle. It's established canon, so you can't really argue with it.
> That leaves Earth too advanced. And a need to pick either a Galvatron or
> Megatron. And no Starscream. (Stupid or not, Starscream as a ghost is
> canon… how would we feel about Starscream possessing someone else, long
> term? And retconning the reformatting of Megatron into Galvatron to be a
> copy rather than a modification — the original could be found in a chunk of
> Unicron… oof, too much)

A throwaway line about the Decepticons showing up and altering the natural course of Earth's development would do the trick. In real life, we don't have flying cars and things, but we also don't have twenty foot tall war machines trying to rape the planet's energy reserves.

If they went the Marvel Comics route, you could have present-day Megatron, and also Galvatron who was plucked from the future. Or maybe the Nucleon affects Galvatron in a different way than the others, and splits him into both Megatron and Galvatron. Honestly, the details aren't important. If there's a storytelling reason to have both Megatron and Galvatron in the story, then they should just find a way and then do it.

We know Unicron did an extensive, detailed scan of Megatron, so maybe those files are still inside Unicron's head? Maybe a Decepticon expedition looking for more anti-electrons or something accidentally stumbles upon the files and Megatron is recreated from that data? It could even be Cyclonus who does it, who is devoutly loyal to Galvatron, but recognizes deep down that they need a stable leader if they're going to survive. That would make for some great "Webworld" style pathos.

Zob (or was that a fanfic I read once? I'm hopped up on NyQuil and honestly can't remember now)

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: joe.bard...@gmail.com (Joseph Bardsley)
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 by: Joseph Bardsley - Mon, 17 Jan 2022 09:00 UTC

This is a fascinating post that I'll return to more fully shortly. (Sigh, work...)

But, in the meantime - Zob - in terms of the fanfic in question - are you thinking of "Cause of Madness", by Rob Jung?

http://web.archive.org/web/20050402023936/http://digiserve.com/eescape/tf/fanfics/Cause-of-Madness.html

JB

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 8:40:06 PM UTC-8, Zobovor wrote:
> On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 9:14:52 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
> > Except Star Trek also has the original universe chugging along, where they
> > recast Spock.
> Star Trek is as much a mythology as it is a cast of characters. Next Generations didn't instantly fail just because there was no Kirk and Spock in it (yes, I know Spock appeared in "Unification" parts 1 and 2, but that was like five seasons later). Enterprise failed because Trek was heavily saturated on TV (at one point didn't they have the final season of Next Generation and the middle of Deep Space Nine AND the first season of Voyager on all at once?) and they were recycling too many scripts.
>
> I've strayed from my point. My point is that Trek is a world as much as it is memorable characters. Yes, it's Kirk and Spock and Picard and all them, but it's also universal translators and photon torpedos and "phasers on stun" and "warp speed" and "beam me up." (Actually, I think that's another reason Enterprise failed. As a prequel series, the technology went backwards instead of forwards.) Create interestng new characters and put them in that world, and it's worth watching. Do sad, tired character retreads and it's less interesting.
>
> Trying to bring back Trek by casting an aged, pathetic Patrick Stewart and a sagging fifty-year-old Jeri Ryan was a horrible idea. Seven of Nine is now older than Captain Picard was when we first saw Captain Picard. Let that sink in.
> > I think a time jump to skip past all the 1988 and later toys who can just
> > be introduced as a thing that was popular for a while with little fanfare,
> > and then handwave the establishment of the new status quo away? And gives a
> > reason for new bodies/toys when we just got a perfect Smokescreen, etc.
> There are so many ways to bring back older characters if they want to get creative. Take a page out of Marvel Comics and say a few Autobots copied their minds onto a crystal just in case they got killed in battle. It's established canon, so you can't really argue with it.
> > That leaves Earth too advanced. And a need to pick either a Galvatron or
> > Megatron. And no Starscream. (Stupid or not, Starscream as a ghost is
> > canon… how would we feel about Starscream possessing someone else, long
> > term? And retconning the reformatting of Megatron into Galvatron to be a
> > copy rather than a modification — the original could be found in a chunk of
> > Unicron… oof, too much)
> A throwaway line about the Decepticons showing up and altering the natural course of Earth's development would do the trick. In real life, we don't have flying cars and things, but we also don't have twenty foot tall war machines trying to rape the planet's energy reserves.
>
> If they went the Marvel Comics route, you could have present-day Megatron, and also Galvatron who was plucked from the future. Or maybe the Nucleon affects Galvatron in a different way than the others, and splits him into both Megatron and Galvatron. Honestly, the details aren't important. If there's a storytelling reason to have both Megatron and Galvatron in the story, then they should just find a way and then do it.
>
> We know Unicron did an extensive, detailed scan of Megatron, so maybe those files are still inside Unicron's head? Maybe a Decepticon expedition looking for more anti-electrons or something accidentally stumbles upon the files and Megatron is recreated from that data? It could even be Cyclonus who does it, who is devoutly loyal to Galvatron, but recognizes deep down that they need a stable leader if they're going to survive. That would make for some great "Webworld" style pathos.
>
>
> Zob (or was that a fanfic I read once? I'm hopped up on NyQuil and honestly can't remember now)

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: mwgo...@gmail.com (MWG)
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 by: MWG - Mon, 17 Jan 2022 20:30 UTC

On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 5:02:58 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> Part of what makes G1 uninteresting to me is that for all practical
> purposes, the story is done, and so we keep getting retreads of the same
> thing over and over. Fine, now there’s an AllSpark (not a good addition, by
> the way), and the Netflix WFC broke new ground by also retreading bits of
> Beast Wars, but gets major points off for using existing beloved characters
> in entirely wrong ways (Skorponok and Sky Lynx).
>
> Given where we are, how could you continue the G1 cartoon with a new series
> that would be simultaneously approachable to new fans and lapsed fans, of
> interest to collectors, and support a toy line?
>
> Major beloved characters that define the brand are dead and gone: Prowl,
> Ironhide, etc. other characters are changed: Megatron is now Galvatron,
> Starscream is available for guest appearances only, Skywarp and
> Thundercracker are unrecognizable and who knows about Insecticons. You can
> roll back some of the changes, but then you lose other fans who want
> Galvatron.
>
> We’ve just had definitive editions of a lot of the core Season 1 and 2
> cast, so a Season 2.5 series wouldn’t have a toy line behind it, along with
> the usual prequel problems.
>
> Also, modern cartoons tend to have higher consequences, and so Mirage’s
> best bet is to just turn invisible and walk away before writers realize
> that he is available for death. Sparkplug might want to join him.
>
> Putting it right after S4 would mean an unrecognizable Earth (what is going
> on in the Netherlands in “The Ultimate Weapon”, where French thugs are
> regularly attacking windmills protected by laser wielding grandmothers).
>
> A time skip puts us in an even more futuristic Earth, and destroys the
> “Robots In Disguise” angle a bit — your family car cannot be a transformer
> as it doesn’t hover.
>
> Time travel shenanigans requires knowing and caring about the original
> timeline, which would kill the “new viewer friendly” aspect.
>
> The G1 toy line continued in unexpected ways, and you would have to either
> embrace that or ignore it, and either approach alienates people. You either
> have characters unavailable, their futures ignored, or a bizarre mish-mash
> where they were able to save Prowl, but not his alt-mode, Bludgeon is an
> undead samurai with a transformer inside, Optimus has a guy in his stomach,
> and there are micromasters getting underfoot (which means we would get very
> familiar with the character models of everyone else’s shins).
>

It is kinda tricky given some of the "rules", especially if a new cartoon following the Rebirth is supposed to advertise the toys from 1998 on to G2. Starscream becomes a Classic Pretender along with Grimlock, Jazz, and Bumblebee - characters that were never killed on-screen (though Bumblebee was "reformatted" and that was explicitly undone in the Marvel comic). Action Masters brings back a few "dead" characters like Megatron and Prowl and Wheeljack.

One of the "gifts" the G1 cartoon timeline gives us, however, is the twenty year gap between season two and the Movie. Lots of things can be explored there. Like the debut of Ultra Magnus and his crew. It is implied Octane, Ratbat, and the Battlechargers showed up in that timeframe. Explain what happened to Tracks, Inferno, and the other 1985 Autobot cars. My theory is they got trapped in some parallel dimension or weird planet that can only be accessed once every few decades or something (meaning they can eventually return). Give an origin to the Protectobots, are they new inventions or old characters like the Combaticons? Maybe hint at the Terrorcons "growing" in the lab of some mad scientist character on a remote planet (maybe Dr. Arkeville was involved in their creation).

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:44:24 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Mon, 17 Jan 2022 21:44 UTC

MWG <mwgoos2@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 16, 2022 at 5:02:58 PM UTC-6, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>> Part of what makes G1 uninteresting to me is that for all practical
>> purposes, the story is done, and so we keep getting retreads of the same
>> thing over and over. Fine, now there’s an AllSpark (not a good addition, by
>> the way), and the Netflix WFC broke new ground by also retreading bits of
>> Beast Wars, but gets major points off for using existing beloved characters
>> in entirely wrong ways (Skorponok and Sky Lynx).
>>
>> Given where we are, how could you continue the G1 cartoon with a new series
>> that would be simultaneously approachable to new fans and lapsed fans, of
>> interest to collectors, and support a toy line?
>>
>> Major beloved characters that define the brand are dead and gone: Prowl,
>> Ironhide, etc. other characters are changed: Megatron is now Galvatron,
>> Starscream is available for guest appearances only, Skywarp and
>> Thundercracker are unrecognizable and who knows about Insecticons. You can
>> roll back some of the changes, but then you lose other fans who want
>> Galvatron.
>>
>> We’ve just had definitive editions of a lot of the core Season 1 and 2
>> cast, so a Season 2.5 series wouldn’t have a toy line behind it, along with
>> the usual prequel problems.
>>
>> Also, modern cartoons tend to have higher consequences, and so Mirage’s
>> best bet is to just turn invisible and walk away before writers realize
>> that he is available for death. Sparkplug might want to join him.
>>
>> Putting it right after S4 would mean an unrecognizable Earth (what is going
>> on in the Netherlands in “The Ultimate Weapon”, where French thugs are
>> regularly attacking windmills protected by laser wielding grandmothers).
>>
>> A time skip puts us in an even more futuristic Earth, and destroys the
>> “Robots In Disguise” angle a bit — your family car cannot be a transformer
>> as it doesn’t hover.
>>
>> Time travel shenanigans requires knowing and caring about the original
>> timeline, which would kill the “new viewer friendly” aspect.
>>
>> The G1 toy line continued in unexpected ways, and you would have to either
>> embrace that or ignore it, and either approach alienates people. You either
>> have characters unavailable, their futures ignored, or a bizarre mish-mash
>> where they were able to save Prowl, but not his alt-mode, Bludgeon is an
>> undead samurai with a transformer inside, Optimus has a guy in his stomach,
>> and there are micromasters getting underfoot (which means we would get very
>> familiar with the character models of everyone else’s shins).
>>
>
> It is kinda tricky given some of the "rules", especially if a new cartoon
> following the Rebirth is supposed to advertise the toys from 1998 on to
> G2. Starscream becomes a Classic Pretender along with Grimlock, Jazz,
> and Bumblebee - characters that were never killed on-screen (though
> Bumblebee was "reformatted" and that was explicitly undone in the Marvel
> comic). Action Masters brings back a few "dead" characters like Megatron
> and Prowl and Wheeljack.

No, it would have to support a new toy line. It’s a toy based show, after
all. This makes the gap years a problem, since we just had a toy line with
the relevant characters getting pretty definitive toys.

Without that… gap years makes a lot of sense, and any discrepancy between
new toy and old animation model can be declared a retroactive animation
error.

> One of the "gifts" the G1 cartoon timeline gives us, however, is the
> twenty year gap between season two and the Movie. Lots of things can be
> explored there. Like the debut of Ultra Magnus and his crew. It is
> implied Octane, Ratbat, and the Battlechargers showed up in that
> timeframe. Explain what happened to Tracks, Inferno, and the other 1985
> Autobot cars. My theory is they got trapped in some parallel dimension
> or weird planet that can only be accessed once every few decades or
> something (meaning they can eventually return). Give an origin to the
> Protectobots, are they new inventions or old characters like the
> Combaticons? Maybe hint at the Terrorcons "growing" in the lab of some
> mad scientist character on a remote planet (maybe Dr. Arkeville was
> involved in their creation).
>

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 00:33 UTC

On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> No, it would have to support a new toy line. It’s a toy based show, after
> all. This makes the gap years a problem, since we just had a toy line with
> the relevant characters getting pretty definitive toys.

The more I think about it, the more I think such a show would have to take place several years after "The Rebirth." Otherwise we'd run into the Siege problem where it was all about the Transformers' last day on Cybertron, but then you had Targetmasters and Micromasters that weren't supposed to exist yet.

If they gave us a new Hosehead, for example, I wouldn't want them to go, "Well, we can't make the toy a Headmaster since this takes place between season two and the movie." The new toys shouldn't slavishly adhere to whatever framework the show provides. The show is just a framework to support the toy line, whatever form it takes.

Maybe the title sequence could be a pastiche of major events from G1—the Ark crew crashes and awakens on Earth; some scenes from Transformers: the Movie; scenes of new tech like Headmasters and Targetmasters being developed, and maybe even stuff we didn't get to see in the G1 show like the advent of the Micromasters and Action Masters. And with that out of the way, we immediately understand that a) this is a continuation, but that b) old characters have been brought back with Nucleon so nobody is really off the table. Time travel shenanigans can introduce a version of Galvatron and Cyclonus and Scourge if that's warranted. And the core cast, the actual focus, will naturally fall to whatever actual characters are featured in the toy line, with many others popping up in the background.

I think this structure allows for nearly any cast of characters to be featured. There's room for Cybertronic vehicles, 1980's Earth vehicles (let's say energy is scarce and there are more important things than making cosmetic upgrades), non-transforming characters, etc.

Zob (looks like the 'rona finally caught up to me, so if I suddenly stop posting, y'all will know why)

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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 by: Travoltron - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 00:33 UTC

On 1/16/2022 8:40 PM, Zobovor wrote:
> Trying to bring back Trek by casting an aged, pathetic Patrick Stewart and a sagging fifty-year-old Jeri Ryan was a horrible idea.
I felt that way when I saw the new Ghostbusters movie. It was just sad
seeing the guys as elderly men.

I wanted a G1 continuation for ages. But it's just too late now. So many
of the old cast and crew are either retired or deceased. So it would end
up written and voiced by a bunch of Gen-X/Millennial hacks like those
War For Cybertron CGI cartoons were.

I'd rather they just keep doing the reset button than wrecking what was
good enough.

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: joe.bard...@gmail.com (Joseph Bardsley)
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 by: Joseph Bardsley - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 03:02 UTC

1) I would respectfully offer, as a "Picard" fan, that Patrick Stewart can still deliver, and that Jeri Ryan (and Seven of Nine) both have more to offer. The former still looks great, and the latter's story arc is not yet complete).

2) Thought experiment: what do we think is happening in the original G1 universe today, in 2022? (Keeping in mind that, for all intents and purposes, as defined by the G1/UK/G2 comic, and original cartoon, that it effectively ended in 2006...)

Really enjoying this thread!

JB

On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 4:33:26 PM UTC-8, Travoltron wrote:
> On 1/16/2022 8:40 PM, Zobovor wrote:
> > Trying to bring back Trek by casting an aged, pathetic Patrick Stewart and a sagging fifty-year-old Jeri Ryan was a horrible idea.
> I felt that way when I saw the new Ghostbusters movie. It was just sad
> seeing the guys as elderly men.
>
> I wanted a G1 continuation for ages. But it's just too late now. So many
> of the old cast and crew are either retired or deceased. So it would end
> up written and voiced by a bunch of Gen-X/Millennial hacks like those
> War For Cybertron CGI cartoons were.
>
> I'd rather they just keep doing the reset button than wrecking what was
> good enough.

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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Newsgroups: alt.toys.transformers
Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:06 UTC

Travoltron <travoltron@defender.uni> wrote:
> On 1/16/2022 8:40 PM, Zobovor wrote:
>> Trying to bring back Trek by casting an aged, pathetic Patrick Stewart
>> and a sagging fifty-year-old Jeri Ryan was a horrible idea.
> I felt that way when I saw the new Ghostbusters movie. It was just sad
> seeing the guys as elderly men.

My problems with the Picard show were not the actors — they were great —
but the lack of hope, and the borg storyline being dropped (literally
dropped in the case of the cube). Star Trek doesn’t do dystopia well.

We all grow old, and many of us still have value. Some of us didn’t have
much value in the first place, of course…

Granted, I would happily watch Mighty Morphing Middle Managers about the
original Power Rangers in their 50s.

> I wanted a G1 continuation for ages. But it's just too late now. So many
> of the old cast and crew are either retired or deceased. So it would end
> up written and voiced by a bunch of Gen-X/Millennial hacks like those
> War For Cybertron CGI cartoons were.
>
> I'd rather they just keep doing the reset button than wrecking what was
> good enough.
>

I want them to either just commit to a G1 cartoon continuation (which has
its challenges), or press that reset button a lot harder. RID, Armada,
Animated, Prime and the Terrible Movies were all very different from G1 and
each other, despite some character archetype overlaps.

The Netflix series, that Machina thing, and Cyberverse try to be almost G1.
It’s the worst of both worlds.

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:20:51 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 08:20 UTC

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 2:44:28 PM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
>> No, it would have to support a new toy line. It’s a toy based show, after
>> all. This makes the gap years a problem, since we just had a toy line with
>> the relevant characters getting pretty definitive toys.
>
> The more I think about it, the more I think such a show would have to
> take place several years after "The Rebirth." Otherwise we'd run into
> the Siege problem where it was all about the Transformers' last day on
> Cybertron, but then you had Targetmasters and Micromasters that weren't
> supposed to exist yet.
>
> If they gave us a new Hosehead, for example, I wouldn't want them to go,
> "Well, we can't make the toy a Headmaster since this takes place between
> season two and the movie." The new toys shouldn't slavishly adhere to
> whatever framework the show provides. The show is just a framework to
> support the toy line, whatever form it takes.
>
> Maybe the title sequence could be a pastiche of major events from G1—the
> Ark crew crashes and awakens on Earth; some scenes from Transformers: the
> Movie; scenes of new tech like Headmasters and Targetmasters being
> developed, and maybe even stuff we didn't get to see in the G1 show like
> the advent of the Micromasters and Action Masters.

“From the memory bank of Teletraan One…” I don’t know that everything needs
to be explained though, you can just have a diverse cast of weird
technologies and reintroduce that as the status quo.

Long term fans don’t need the backstory, and new fans would just be bogged
down. Nebulons might need a bit of an explanation, but the rest is just the
same basic thing with variations on sentient robots in disguise.

“From the failing memory of Kup…” has potential though. “ActionMasters are
transformers who have taken a vow to never transform, building up their
vital essences and protecting the sanctity of their bodily fluids, leaving
them stronger, faster and a little bit insufferable. It started as a
competition, to see who could go the longest, and it got out of hand.”

> And with that out of the way, we immediately understand that a) this is a
> continuation, but that b) old characters have been brought back with
> Nucleon so nobody is really off the table. […] And the core cast, the
> actual focus, will naturally fall to whatever actual characters are
> featured in the toy line, with many others popping up in the background.

I almost want new fans to not really know it’s a continuation. There might
need to be some flashbacks for Unicron, if anyone looks up at the sky of
Cybertron and sees a giant head, (Kup: “Nice guy, Unicron. He kept eating
worlds, so we had to kill him, but other than that… nice guy. No one
figured out what to do with his head though. Someone suggested pushing it
into a star, but what if he’s not really dead and takes over the star? Last
thing you want is a star going around eating planets… too many of those
already…”)

I would say new fans shouldn’t need to know it’s a direct continuation.

> Time travel shenanigans can introduce a version of Galvatron and Cyclonus
> and Scourge if that's warranted.

Here’s where I get stuck. Returning to Megatron and Starscream is enough of
a story that it needs to be told, but would be chaos for any new fans, and
likely an unfulfilling move-from-point-a-to-point-b story for everyone
else.

I mean, I guess that’s kind of what comic books are for, so an unsatisfying
story can be buried in a comic book leading up to the premiere episode of
the cartoon, but that seems like a cheating way out.

> I think this structure allows for nearly any cast of characters to be
> featured. There's room for Cybertronic vehicles, 1980's Earth vehicles
> (let's say energy is scarce and there are more important things than
> making cosmetic upgrades), non-transforming characters, etc.

But modern vehicles… the G1 universe took a big turn from ours.

> Zob (looks like the 'rona finally caught up to me, so if I suddenly stop
> posting, y'all will know why)

Every 4 days one percent of Seattle gets a positive PCR test. Our numbers
are flat, so it’s hard to tell whether it’s a testing limit or a the wave
is cresting.

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:07 UTC

On Monday, January 17, 2022 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-7, Joseph Bardsley wrote:

> 2) Thought experiment: what do we think is happening in the original G1 universe today, in 2022? (Keeping in mind that, for all intents and purposes, as defined by the G1/UK/G2 comic, and original cartoon, that it effectively ended in 2006...)

If we begin with the premise that every product year is featured in a far-flung "future" year of the cartoon (e.g., the 1986 toys existed in 2006, the 1987 toys existed in 2007, etc.) then the real-life toys from 2002 would be featured in a hypothetical 2022 season of G1. So, basically, the original Robots in Disguise toys would be folded into the G1 continuity somehow.

Zob (even I recognize that this makes zero sense, but hey)

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: zmf...@aol.com (Zobovor)
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 by: Zobovor - Tue, 18 Jan 2022 20:23 UTC

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 1:20:53 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> Long term fans don’t need the backstory, and new fans would just be bogged
> down. Nebulons might need a bit of an explanation, but the rest is just the
> same basic thing with variations on sentient robots in disguise.

Some brief opening sequence narration would do the trick. Something like, "Our war has spanned millions of years, taken us to new planets, where we've met new allies and developed new technology..."

> “From the failing memory of Kup…” has potential though.

I would honestly really enjoy that. It would be very difficult to accept as canon, but it would open up the door for lots of storytelling possibilities.

> Here’s where I get stuck. Returning to Megatron and Starscream is enough of
> a story that it needs to be told, but would be chaos for any new fans, and
> likely an unfulfilling move-from-point-a-to-point-b story for everyone
> else.

I don't know what the right move would be for storytelling purposes. Just begin the story with Megatron and Starscream, and allude to their history in throwaway dialogue or in flashbacks? I really wonder how the G1 cartoon would have tackled this problem if it had lasted until 1990...

Zob (besides shunting all the production to DiC and replacing most of the voice cast with Canadians, I mean)

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: pork.not...@gmail.com (Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat, of t - Wed, 19 Jan 2022 09:59 UTC

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 12:23:40 PM UTC-8, Zobovor wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 1:20:53 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
> > Long term fans don’t need the backstory, and new fans would just be bogged
> > down. Nebulons might need a bit of an explanation, but the rest is just the
> > same basic thing with variations on sentient robots in disguise.

> Some brief opening sequence narration would do the trick. Something like, "Our war has spanned millions of years, taken us to new planets, where we've met new allies and developed new technology..."

Nebulans are more than just a new technology though -- it changes the nature of Transformers from being sentient robots to a partnership between a sentient robot and a squishy ball of flesh. Everything else ends up just being some variant of sentient robot, and that's easy.

I do wonder how the relationships would have been depicted had the cartoon continued past The Rebirth. In many ways the idea of the Japanese Headmasters was simpler and more straightforward -- the sentient robot is the head, the body is just a thing.

> > “From the failing memory of Kup…” has potential though.
> I would honestly really enjoy that. It would be very difficult to accept as canon, but it would open up the door for lots of storytelling possibilities.

It would definitely be a moment where the fans are explicitly told not to worry too much about continuity. Some would react better than other to this.

> > Here’s where I get stuck. Returning to Megatron and Starscream is enough of
> > a story that it needs to be told, but would be chaos for any new fans, and
> > likely an unfulfilling move-from-point-a-to-point-b story for everyone
> > else.
> I don't know what the right move would be for storytelling purposes. Just begin the story with Megatron and Starscream, and allude to their history in throwaway dialogue or in flashbacks? I really wonder how the G1 cartoon would have tackled this problem if it had lasted until 1990...

I think that had the cartoon continued until 1990, we would have gotten ActionMaster Galvatron rather than ActionMaster Megatron.

Hmm. Two ideas, both involve a skip forward a bit to allow other characters and technologies to happen offscreen.:

ONE:

Clear the table on the Decepticon side by having them scattered and defeated -- something bad happened to them in the Mirtonian Cluster, and most are destroyed, and the survivors are on the run. That allows anyone to appear if we want them (they were a survivor), but no one has to appear. It also means the starting status quo is very similar to the end of The Rebirth, with Autobots triumphant, but leaves room for Pretenders, Action Masters, Micromasters, and G2 characters to all just exist.

It even gives us time to say "Well, the Nebulans died, so we scooped out their remains and put our own consciousness into the little head robots" if we wanted, although that might be a bit dark.

Megatron, Starscream and the Seekers appear on Earth, fleeing from a dying universe. Multiverses are big these days, so it might not be too much. They come from a parallel universe where (Daniel slipped on a rock and fell into the stream at the beginning of TF:TM, so no one saw the shuttle and sounded the alarm, so) Decepticons win the Battle of Autobot City, and then there's no one to stop Unicron, plus they have modern alt-modes. It does mean stopping Unicron again, and might drag in Galvatron, Cyclonus and Sweeps.

I don't love it, but it could work -- it begs for some "fish out of water" stories as the refugee Decepticons adapt to the new reality, and we just don't want that. It does avoid the "but if this is Megatron from 2004, don't we have to get him back so he can get killed?" time travel problems. But instead we have the characters from a distopian version of reality arriving and presumably shaking off all that trauma.

We don't get Prowl, but he can be replaced with Strongarm from TF:Prime Robots In Disguise -- she's a better character anyway. Or some Autobots that didn't survive TF:TM in the main universe did survive in the incursion universe, and have joined with Megatron to try to stop Unicron and then eventually flee.

TWO:

Just start with Galvatron, with Unicron trying to regain control. Galvatron destroys something in Unicron's head and is then free (for the moment...). He adopts the name Megatron again, to assert his independence. Skywarp and Thundercracker are restored from Cyclonus and Scourge.

And Starscream just inhabits someone who has a possession kink.

Logically, this would leave everyone with futuristic alt-modes, which is awkward and undermines the "robots in disguise" angle. And the Megatron/Starscream relationship would be strained ("You killed me!" "I was possessed!" "But you killed me!" "You seem fine now...")


> Zob (besides shunting all the production to DiC and replacing most of the voice cast with Canadians, I mean)

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, eh, hosers?"

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 by: Zobovor - Wed, 19 Jan 2022 22:11 UTC

On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 1:06:44 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:

> We all grow old, and many of us still have value.

Yes, but I still maintain that the main draw, the primary appeal, of Star Trek was never the actors, but the world and the message. Many of the actors they ended up choosing were quite excellent, but the whole reason the Picard series exists is because somebody decided Star Trek needed star appeal, so they dug up Patrick Stewart and somehow convinced him to resume the role despite being 81 years old. But now instead of being wise and virile, he's ancient and decrepit. We all know he's only got a few years left in him, and they're trying to squeeze a few more seasons' worth of entertainment value out of the man before he kicks the bucket, and I don't think it's right.

It's a symptom of a larger problem, where Hollywood has inexplicably decided that we all want to see elderly, wrinkled versions of our favorite 1980's heroes. Yes, a lot of these actors are still chugging along and, yes, I suppose they appreciate the paycheck. But it's geriatic exploitation. They did it in recent years with Arnold Scwarzenegger as a grey, wrinkly Terminator. They did a new Rambo movie starring a 75-year-old Sylvester Stallone.. There's a new Top Gun movie coming out, just in time for Tom Cruise to qualify for the senior citizen's discount at Denny's. And as Travoltron said, they did it with the latest Ghostbusters movie, trotting out a bunch of washed-up old men and putting them in the jumpsuits and proton packs again.

It's not inspiring. It's not awesome. It's just sad. And it's orchestrated only to put the butts of middle-aged men in movie theater seats for a couple of hours.

Mark Hamill conducted a series of interviews leading up to his role in the new Star Wars films, reprising the Luke Skywalker character. Obviously he couldn't bad-mouth Disney, but he got the point across. You can tell he strongly disagreed with all of it. Now, unlike a lot of the above characters, George Lucas always envisioned bringing Luke Skywalker back one day as an aged, wisened Jedi to train a future generation. He's been talking about it since the 1980's. But the way they brought Luke back, and what they turned him into, was a complete travesty. Apparently the Mouse thought we all wanted to see our childhood heroes turn into bitter old farts and/or get killed on-screen.

My point, and I do have one, is that they've got to stop doing this. It's awful.
> The Netflix series, that Machina thing, and Cyberverse try to be almost G1.
> It’s the worst of both worlds.

I still don't see why everybody rags on the Netflix series so hard. I mean, it wasn't perfection, but it was entertaining for a few hours. I didn't hate it. It's incompatible with the G1 cartoon, but so is basically every other Transformers continuity that exists, but that's nothing new.

Zob (yay, my kids are trapped at home and have been shouting at each other all day!)

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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From: gustavow...@yahoo.com (Gustavo Wombat)
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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2022 06:17:07 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Gustavo Wombat - Thu, 20 Jan 2022 06:17 UTC

Zobovor <zmfts@aol.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 1:06:44 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the
> Seattle Wombats wrote:
>
>> We all grow old, and many of us still have value.
>
> Yes, but I still maintain that the main draw, the primary appeal, of Star
> Trek was never the actors, but the world and the message.

The characters and the world, hand in hand. Deep Space 9 would not be
beloved if it were all about the message — it has one of the bleakest
triumphs ever.

> Many of the actors they ended up choosing were quite excellent, but the
> whole reason the Picard series exists is because somebody decided Star
> Trek needed star appeal, so they dug up Patrick Stewart and somehow
> convinced him to resume the role despite being 81 years old.

Stewart also reprised Professor X, so I think he knows what he is doing.

> But now instead of being wise and virile, he's ancient and decrepit.

Professor X is old and decrepit in Logan. Picard is old and disillusioned,
but finds some meaning in his life other than puttering about with his
weird Irish Romulans — his body is failing, but his spirit is rekindled by
having a sense of purpose, ultimately along with his body.

I think you have to take the two roles side by side to see that Stewart is
trying to show different forms of aging. I think Logan was the more
successful of the two, but liked ST:Picard well enough.

> We all know he's only got a few years left in him, and they're trying to
> squeeze a few more seasons' worth of entertainment value out of the man
> before he kicks the bucket, and I don't think it's right.

Pretty sure that Stewart could have any life he wants right now, and work
on any type of project. I’m not so worried about elder abuse here.

If Ty hey dragged out Gates McFaddon from wherever she’s been hiding and
gave us “Star Trek: Beverly” I might feel differently, but Stewart clearly
wants to work.

(If “Star Trek: Beverly” was Quincy In Space, with Dr. Crusher quickly
explaining that she became more interested in geriatric care, and that
medical examiner was the obvious progression past that, I would watch it
though)

> It's a symptom of a larger problem, where Hollywood has inexplicably
> decided that we all want to see elderly, wrinkled versions of our favorite 1980's heroes.

People want the stories to continue. There’s new stuff with new characters
elsewhere, go watch that instead if it’s more your jam.

Shatter is probably angry Kirk is dead.

> Yes, a lot of these actors are still chugging along and, yes, I suppose
> they appreciate the paycheck. But it's geriatic exploitation. They did
> it in recent years with Arnold Scwarzenegger as a grey, wrinkly
> Terminator. They did a new Rambo movie starring a 75-year-old Sylvester
> Stallone. There's a new Top Gun movie coming out, just in time for Tom
> Cruise to qualify for the senior citizen's discount at Denny's. And as
> Travoltron said, they did it with the latest Ghostbusters movie, trotting
> out a bunch of washed-up old men and putting them in the jumpsuits and
> proton packs again.

Yeah, and I watched none of those because they didn’t seem interesting. I
don’t care what Maverick and Goose are up to 30 years later, unless it’s
surprisingly awesome.

> It's not inspiring. It's not awesome. It's just sad. And it's
> orchestrated only to put the butts of middle-aged men in movie theater
> seats for a couple of hours.
>
> Mark Hamill conducted a series of interviews leading up to his role in
> the new Star Wars films, reprising the Luke Skywalker character.
> Obviously he couldn't bad-mouth Disney, but he got the point across. You
> can tell he strongly disagreed with all of it. Now, unlike a lot of the
> above characters, George Lucas always envisioned bringing Luke Skywalker
> back one day as an aged, wisened Jedi to train a future generation. He's
> been talking about it since the 1980's. But the way they brought Luke
> back, and what they turned him into, was a complete travesty. Apparently
> the Mouse thought we all wanted to see our childhood heroes turn into
> bitter old farts and/or get killed on-screen.

Hamill said he initially disagreed with it, but then came to like it. I’m
not going to try to read more into Hamill’s words than what he said.

The Last Jedi was a fascinating movie in many respects — the necessary
course correction after the retread of The Force Awakens, and a brilliant
way to end the saga. Deconstruct the story and set the stage for a new
beginning. The Skywalker family is ultimately not important, heroes come
from anywhere and even broom boy might be the next hero.

It had lots of flaws, but it inherited a mess that it had to respond to.
After The Force Awakens just retold the general plot of A New Hope, and set
up Rey to have the exact same character arc as Luke, with the same Hero’s
Journey following the same pages of Joseph Campbell’s book, where do you
go? Tear apart the hero’s journey, but end on a note of hope and
emphasizing the power of the story.

The prequel trilogy is the fall of a hero. The original trilogy is the rise
of a hero. The two sequels smash the very concept of a hero.

Pity they tacked another movie on after it. That one was unnecessary and
shit.

> My point, and I do have one, is that they've got to stop doing this. It's awful.

You may not want to watch the Boba Fett series.

>> The Netflix series, that Machina thing, and Cyberverse try to be almost G1.
>> It’s the worst of both worlds.
>
> I still don't see why everybody rags on the Netflix series so hard. I
> mean, it wasn't perfection, but it was entertaining for a few hours. I
> didn't hate it. It's incompatible with the G1 cartoon, but so is
> basically every other Transformers continuity that exists, but that's nothing new.

But it also wasn’t good. The characters were flat and lifeless.

> Zob (yay, my kids are trapped at home and have been shouting at each other all day!)
>

Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?

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Subject: Re: How could you continue G1 rather than just rehashing it?
From: joe.bard...@gmail.com (Joseph Bardsley)
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 by: Joseph Bardsley - Sat, 22 Jan 2022 08:20 UTC

On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 1:59:22 AM UTC-8, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 12:23:40 PM UTC-8, Zobovor wrote:
> > On Tuesday, January 18, 2022 at 1:20:53 AM UTC-7, Gustavo Wombat, of the Seattle Wombats wrote:
> >
> > > Long term fans don’t need the backstory, and new fans would just be bogged
> > > down. Nebulons might need a bit of an explanation, but the rest is just the
> > > same basic thing with variations on sentient robots in disguise.
>
> > Some brief opening sequence narration would do the trick. Something like, "Our war has spanned millions of years, taken us to new planets, where we've met new allies and developed new technology..."
> Nebulans are more than just a new technology though -- it changes the nature of Transformers from being sentient robots to a partnership between a sentient robot and a squishy ball of flesh. Everything else ends up just being some variant of sentient robot, and that's easy.
>
> I do wonder how the relationships would have been depicted had the cartoon continued past The Rebirth. In many ways the idea of the Japanese Headmasters was simpler and more straightforward -- the sentient robot is the head, the body is just a thing.
> > > “From the failing memory of Kup…” has potential though.
> > I would honestly really enjoy that. It would be very difficult to accept as canon, but it would open up the door for lots of storytelling possibilities.
> It would definitely be a moment where the fans are explicitly told not to worry too much about continuity. Some would react better than other to this.
> > > Here’s where I get stuck. Returning to Megatron and Starscream is enough of
> > > a story that it needs to be told, but would be chaos for any new fans, and
> > > likely an unfulfilling move-from-point-a-to-point-b story for everyone
> > > else.
> > I don't know what the right move would be for storytelling purposes. Just begin the story with Megatron and Starscream, and allude to their history in throwaway dialogue or in flashbacks? I really wonder how the G1 cartoon would have tackled this problem if it had lasted until 1990...
> I think that had the cartoon continued until 1990, we would have gotten ActionMaster Galvatron rather than ActionMaster Megatron.
>
> Hmm. Two ideas, both involve a skip forward a bit to allow other characters and technologies to happen offscreen.:
>
> ONE:
>
> Clear the table on the Decepticon side by having them scattered and defeated -- something bad happened to them in the Mirtonian Cluster, and most are destroyed, and the survivors are on the run. That allows anyone to appear if we want them (they were a survivor), but no one has to appear. It also means the starting status quo is very similar to the end of The Rebirth, with Autobots triumphant, but leaves room for Pretenders, Action Masters, Micromasters, and G2 characters to all just exist.
>
> It even gives us time to say "Well, the Nebulans died, so we scooped out their remains and put our own consciousness into the little head robots" if we wanted, although that might be a bit dark.
>
> Megatron, Starscream and the Seekers appear on Earth, fleeing from a dying universe. Multiverses are big these days, so it might not be too much. They come from a parallel universe where (Daniel slipped on a rock and fell into the stream at the beginning of TF:TM, so no one saw the shuttle and sounded the alarm, so) Decepticons win the Battle of Autobot City, and then there's no one to stop Unicron, plus they have modern alt-modes. It does mean stopping Unicron again, and might drag in Galvatron, Cyclonus and Sweeps.
>
> I don't love it, but it could work -- it begs for some "fish out of water" stories as the refugee Decepticons adapt to the new reality, and we just don't want that. It does avoid the "but if this is Megatron from 2004, don't we have to get him back so he can get killed?" time travel problems. But instead we have the characters from a distopian version of reality arriving and presumably shaking off all that trauma.
>
> We don't get Prowl, but he can be replaced with Strongarm from TF:Prime Robots In Disguise -- she's a better character anyway. Or some Autobots that didn't survive TF:TM in the main universe did survive in the incursion universe, and have joined with Megatron to try to stop Unicron and then eventually flee.
>
> TWO:
>
> Just start with Galvatron, with Unicron trying to regain control. Galvatron destroys something in Unicron's head and is then free (for the moment...). He adopts the name Megatron again, to assert his independence. Skywarp and Thundercracker are restored from Cyclonus and Scourge.
>
> And Starscream just inhabits someone who has a possession kink.
>
> Logically, this would leave everyone with futuristic alt-modes, which is awkward and undermines the "robots in disguise" angle. And the Megatron/Starscream relationship would be strained ("You killed me!" "I was possessed!" "But you killed me!" "You seem fine now...")
> > Zob (besides shunting all the production to DiC and replacing most of the voice cast with Canadians, I mean)
> "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, eh, hosers?"

Now these ideas have legs: two parts, "Man in the High Castle", and one part "Star Trek: First Contact". Intriguing, to be sure - and - as you say - enough ambiguity to permit all kinds of reflection and world building. :)

JB

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