https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\

grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations

AB

AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
>
> grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
>
> AB

As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> >
> > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> >
> > AB
> As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).

But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...

AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
>
> grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
>
> AB

BTW what I wrote was not meant as an insult, I respect your aesthetic judgements often and I know of your appreciation of Schnabel, but I was just thinking you know... in the end I guess you are right, it would be better if he hit the right notes... but then you know... wasn't there a case where Schnabel recorded a Beethoven Sonata and they wanted to re-record it because of some missed notes and he was like "no, if I play the right notes, it would be different and not as good"... and as a whole I like many of his interpretations more than of any other artist... and I think this was sort of his technique you know... if you would have made him think about hitting the right notes, the whole thing would have been different... so when you are saying that these are limitations - maybe you have to view this dialectically - that these limitations work also as extensions (being more free).

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > >
> > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > >
> > > AB
> > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).
> But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations....

what does 'listening limitations' mean??

AB

AB schrieb am Freitag, 12. Mai 2023 um 19:29:44 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > > >
> > > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > > >
> > > > AB
> > > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).
> > But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...
> what does 'listening limitations' mean??

I probably should have thought about this expression more, or at least explained what I meant with it.

What I meant was that because you notice the wrong notes that it limits your enjoyment of the whole (for you to enjoy an interpretation wholly it seems as if you make it a condition that no wrong notes are being played; so you sort of limit yourself to only enjoy interpretations that meet this condition). In a sense it is positive that you hear wrong notes (and I'd like to be able to hear them as well - especially without guidance from others), but in another sense it is also negative (as say Schnabel's interpretations will always bug you in some way).

>
> AB

Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:17:04 UTC+2:
> AB schrieb am Freitag, 12. Mai 2023 um 19:29:44 UTC+2:
> > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > > > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > > > >
> > > > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > > > >
> > > > > AB
> > > > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).
> > > But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...
> > what does 'listening limitations' mean??
> I probably should have thought about this expression more, or at least explained what I meant with it.
>
> What I meant was that because you notice the wrong notes that it limits your enjoyment of the whole (for you to enjoy an interpretation wholly it seems as if you make it a condition that no wrong notes are being played; so you sort of limit yourself to only enjoy interpretations that meet this condition). In a sense it is positive that you hear wrong notes (and I'd like to be able to hear them as well - especially without guidance from others), but in another sense it is also negative (as say Schnabel's interpretations will always bug you in some way).

I should add that likely you can't not notice the wrong notes (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, just pointing out how it may backfire in some way), it's just how you listen to music, but Schnabel also was an experienced musician and he seemed to not have had as much problems as you wrt wrong notes... Beethoven has said similar things.

>
> >
> > AB

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 10:08:51 UTC+2:
> https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8
Do you know Hansen/Strub Q., a somewhat obscure late 1950s or so recording? (I found it online years ago, don't remember in which archive) I recall this as too serious but quite interesting as a somewhat different approach.

Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:21:02 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:17:04 UTC+2:
> > AB schrieb am Freitag, 12. Mai 2023 um 19:29:44 UTC+2:
> > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > > > > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > > > > >
> > > > > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AB
> > > > > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).
> > > > But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...
> > > what does 'listening limitations' mean??
> > I probably should have thought about this expression more, or at least explained what I meant with it.
> >
> > What I meant was that because you notice the wrong notes that it limits your enjoyment of the whole (for you to enjoy an interpretation wholly it seems as if you make it a condition that no wrong notes are being played; so you sort of limit yourself to only enjoy interpretations that meet this condition). In a sense it is positive that you hear wrong notes (and I'd like to be able to hear them as well - especially without guidance from others), but in another sense it is also negative (as say Schnabel's interpretations will always bug you in some way).
> I should add that likely you can't not notice the wrong notes (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, just pointing out how it may backfire in some way), it's just how you listen to music, but Schnabel also was an experienced musician and he seemed to not have had as much problems as you wrt wrong notes... Beethoven has said similar things.
>
> >
> > >
> > > AB

The thing is this maybe, when magic happens in music, it can't be explained.... you can't make it tangible (why is there magic in Schnabel's Schubert, but not in Brendel's? is a question that can't be answered); but playing wrong notes is sth tangible... this is something objectively verifiable... yet it does not mean anything to me in the end when the music is magic...

On Saturday, 13 May 2023 at 18:43:42 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:21:02 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:17:04 UTC+2:
> > > AB schrieb am Freitag, 12. Mai 2023 um 19:29:44 UTC+2:
> > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > > > > > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > AB
> > > > > > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).
> > > > > But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...
> > > > what does 'listening limitations' mean??
> > > I probably should have thought about this expression more, or at least explained what I meant with it.
> > >
> > > What I meant was that because you notice the wrong notes that it limits your enjoyment of the whole (for you to enjoy an interpretation wholly it seems as if you make it a condition that no wrong notes are being played; so you sort of limit yourself to only enjoy interpretations that meet this condition). In a sense it is positive that you hear wrong notes (and I'd like to be able to hear them as well - especially without guidance from others), but in another sense it is also negative (as say Schnabel's interpretations will always bug you in some way).
> > I should add that likely you can't not notice the wrong notes (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, just pointing out how it may backfire in some way), it's just how you listen to music, but Schnabel also was an experienced musician and he seemed to not have had as much problems as you wrt wrong notes... Beethoven has said similar things.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > AB
> The thing is this maybe, when magic happens in music, it can't be explained... you can't make it >tangible (why is there magic in Schnabel's Schubert, but not in Brendel's? is a question that can't be >answered); but playing wrong notes is sth tangible... this is something objectively verifiable.... yet it >does not mean anything to me in the end when the music is magic....

In short, playing everything perfectly, but without much musicality, will never match some missed notes if some magic is offered as a replacement.

Ray Hall, Taree

On Saturday, May 13, 2023 at 1:37:28 AM UTC-7, Johannes Roehl wrote:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 10:08:51 UTC+2:
>
> > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8
>
> Do you know Hansen/Strub Q., a somewhat
> obscure late 1950s or so recording?

Yes I do. I have collected all the Strub Qt
recordings to the extent they are available.

> (I found it online years ago, don't remember
> in which archive) I recall this as too serious
> but quite interesting as a somewhat different
> approach.

Indeed. Strub leans to the darker side. D.887
was their masterpiece. Unfortunately it has
not been (re)released on LPs or CDs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strub_Quartet

MeloClassic issued some of thei recordings,
including D.810 which I did not like, and the
Bruckner quartet, which I do not know well
enough to form an opinion. It seems those
recordings are no longer available.

https://www.meloclassic.com/cd/strings/

dk

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 11:58:15 UTC+2:
> On Saturday, 13 May 2023 at 18:43:42 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:21:02 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:17:04 UTC+2:
> > > > AB schrieb am Freitag, 12. Mai 2023 um 19:29:44 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > AB
> > > > > > > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full).
> > > > > > But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...
> > > > > what does 'listening limitations' mean??
> > > > I probably should have thought about this expression more, or at least explained what I meant with it.
> > > >
> > > > What I meant was that because you notice the wrong notes that it limits your enjoyment of the whole (for you to enjoy an interpretation wholly it seems as if you make it a condition that no wrong notes are being played; so you sort of limit yourself to only enjoy interpretations that meet this condition). In a sense it is positive that you hear wrong notes (and I'd like to be able to hear them as well - especially without guidance from others), but in another sense it is also negative (as say Schnabel's interpretations will always bug you in some way).
> > > I should add that likely you can't not notice the wrong notes (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, just pointing out how it may backfire in some way), it's just how you listen to music, but Schnabel also was an experienced musician and he seemed to not have had as much problems as you wrt wrong notes... Beethoven has said similar things.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > AB
> > The thing is this maybe, when magic happens in music, it can't be explained... you can't make it >tangible (why is there magic in Schnabel's Schubert, but not in Brendel's? is a question that can't be >answered); but playing wrong notes is sth tangible... this is something objectively verifiable.... yet it >does not mean anything to me in the end when the music is magic....
> In short, playing everything perfectly, but without much musicality, will never match some missed notes if some magic is offered as a replacement.

That's a part of what I said, but I would in this case never use the word "replacement"; as the whole interpretation is magic... I am not looking at parts and summing them up, but sort of just experience the whole thing and then decide (unless ofc say the beginning is already horrendous or sth, then ofc I stop lsitening - which sometimes is the case even with Schnabel, last time Schubert Piano Trio 1). What I said before about "whole", and was referencing back to with "wholly" in the part you quoted is a part you left out of your summary, by reducing (real and complex) things - as it is useful in physics...... just like you seem to reduce things surrounding Israel and "Palestine" by blanking out a whole part of reality...

What Kant said about aesthetic judgements (from what I remember, I'm actually going to read him soon (only looked a bit into it), and he differentiated things a little as far as i remember) is that they are special in that they serve no interest, that you don't put a condition to what must be beautiful, but are just experiencing beauty when you see it (sort of). So when say someone says he can only enjoy an interpretation fully if all the notes are being played, he makes a condition (which I sort of don't like... but I have think about it further), and I think that Kant also talks about this.... that there are also aesthetic judgements out of interest... as I said, I really need to dig into this further, so take this with a grain of salt.

>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 17:16:21 UTC+2:
> raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 11:58:15 UTC+2:
> > On Saturday, 13 May 2023 at 18:43:42 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:21:02 UTC+2:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:17:04 UTC+2:
> > > > > AB schrieb am Freitag, 12. Mai 2023 um 19:29:44 UTC+2:
> > > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 3:10:15 PM UTC-4, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 21:01:04 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > AB schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 20:00:16 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 4:08:51 AM UTC-4, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8\
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > grew up with recording, Schnabel great even with his limitations
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > AB
> > > > > > > > As of yet it's the only one I know,... never listened to any other I think, at least I can't remember and I don't know the work too well, need to get to know it better (only listened to some movements in full)..
> > > > > > > But yes, from what I remember very beautiful. And as far as his technique goes, Schnabel makes magic happen... and if the missed notes (which I can't hear) bother you too much, maybe it is you who has listening limitations...
> > > > > > what does 'listening limitations' mean??
> > > > > I probably should have thought about this expression more, or at least explained what I meant with it.
> > > > >
> > > > > What I meant was that because you notice the wrong notes that it limits your enjoyment of the whole (for you to enjoy an interpretation wholly it seems as if you make it a condition that no wrong notes are being played; so you sort of limit yourself to only enjoy interpretations that meet this condition). In a sense it is positive that you hear wrong notes (and I'd like to be able to hear them as well - especially without guidance from others), but in another sense it is also negative (as say Schnabel's interpretations will always bug you in some way).
> > > > I should add that likely you can't not notice the wrong notes (and I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this, just pointing out how it may backfire in some way), it's just how you listen to music, but Schnabel also was an experienced musician and he seemed to not have had as much problems as you wrt wrong notes... Beethoven has said similar things.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > AB
> > > The thing is this maybe, when magic happens in music, it can't be explained... you can't make it >tangible (why is there magic in Schnabel's Schubert, but not in Brendel's? is a question that can't be >answered); but playing wrong notes is sth tangible... this is something objectively verifiable... yet it >does not mean anything to me in the end when the music is magic...
> > In short, playing everything perfectly, but without much musicality, will never match some missed notes if some magic is offered as a replacement.
> That's a part of what I said, but I would in this case never use the word "replacement"; as the whole interpretation is magic... I am not looking at parts and summing them up, but sort of just experience the whole thing and then decide (unless ofc say the beginning is already horrendous or sth, then ofc I stop lsitening - which sometimes is the case even with Schnabel, last time Schubert Piano Trio 1). What I said before about "whole", and was referencing back to with "wholly" in the part you quoted is a part you left out of your summary, by reducing (real and complex) things - as it is useful in physics...... just like you seem to reduce things surrounding Israel and "Palestine" by blanking out a whole part of reality...
>
> What Kant said about aesthetic judgements (from what I remember, I'm actually going to read him soon (only looked a bit into it), and he differentiated things a little as far as i remember) is that they are special in that they serve no interest, that you don't put a condition to what must be beautiful, but are just experiencing beauty when you see it (sort of). So when say someone says he can only enjoy an interpretation fully if all the notes are being played, he makes a condition (which I sort of don't like... but I have think about it further), and I think that Kant also talks about this.... that there are also aesthetic judgements out of interest... as I said, I really need to dig into this further, so take this with a grain of salt.

*At least from just trying to remember what he said about aesthetic judgements out of itnerest is for example, when you have an interest in buying flowers of a certain color for example, say you are looking to gift your friend a blue flower (because she/he likes the color blue); and that maybe out of experience you don't want a flower that doesn't look healthy and therefore look for specific signs etc. But then say there 5 flowers where all of this is met, then you still have to look, and whatever you like most is not motivated by any interest, but just by experiencing it.

>
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree

Johannes Roehl schrieb am Samstag, 13. Mai 2023 um 10:37:28 UTC+2:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 11. Mai 2023 um 10:08:51 UTC+2:
> > https://youtu.be/0GPCs8lZ1g8
> Do you know Hansen/Strub Q., a somewhat obscure late 1950s or so recording? (I found it online years ago, don't remember in which archive) I recall this as too serious but quite interesting as a somewhat different approach.

Thanks for mentioning the Strub Quartet; from what I listened (KV 421 and D 810 - there is not much up on yt) they seem really good... I need to spend some more time with the works though. I especially seemed to like the Mozart. It might have actually been the first time that I heard this work... and yes, really beautiful.

----

as of yet I seem to be interested in Amadeus, Budapest, Strub and the Alban Berg quartet, I also liked the Flonzaley Beethoven that Dan posted a while ago... and Juilliard...