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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

SubjectAuthor
* Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
|   `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|    `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|     +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|     `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?gggg gggg
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?gggg gggg
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
|  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
|   `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?mINE109
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Herman
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Chris J.
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Pluted Pup
|   +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|   |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   | +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   | |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|   |  +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   |  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|    `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Pluted Pup
|     `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?raymond....@gmail.com
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?number_six
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andrew Clarke
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
|+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Pluted Pup
|| +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| |+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?raymond....@gmail.com
|| | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
|| | +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | |  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
|| | |   +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|| | |   `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Al Eisner
|| | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
||  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
|| +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
|| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
||  +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  |+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
||  | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  |  +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  |  |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Herman
||  |  | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
||  |  | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Herman
||  |  |  |  +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |  +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |   +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
||  |  |  |   |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
||  |  |  |    +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
||  |  |  |    |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |    `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  |     `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |      +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |      `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  |       +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |       |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  |       +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |       +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |       `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
||  |  |  |        `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
||  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren

Pages:123456
Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

<0207dd2a-d237-493d-9b91-c097b1824681n@googlegroups.com>

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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Date: Wed, 17 May 2023 13:33:20 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Wed, 17 May 2023 20:33 UTC

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 1:23:16 PM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
>
> The best remedy might be for everyone to
> cease to react to the non-productive posts,

Are you appointing yourself arbiter of this ng?

> and only partake in the meaningful and
> substantive conversations.

What appears to be "meaningful" to one
person may not be nearly as meaningful
to others -- if it all. How is one supposed
to know?

> This is not aimed at anyone in particular.

Of course not, political correctness is aimed
equally against all opinions that differ from
common, prescribed norms.

> When the conversations turn personal or
> insulting just ignore it repeatedly.

Conversations are not insulting. People
feel insulted when their skin is too thin,
and when their minds are too narrow.

> Then the dialogue will once more become
> more constructive.

Far more likely the dialogue will die out.

Who needs "constructive"? How do
"construction" and "constructionism"
benefit anyone or anything? If one
needs "construction" one can
engage carpenters.

dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 20:46 UTC

I would definitely rate Brahms over Schumann... yes... I was wrong... no need for Schumann and Mahler for me... I think that if I were a musician... I would look for inspiration into Brahms and R. Strauss... and while Wagner similar to Schumann and Mahler has some very itneresting bits, his general aesthetic as with Schumann and Mahler is just not for me...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 20:52 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:02:32 UTC+2:
> Thinking about my favourite composers again... I think I have to omit Schumann... I really can't say I like ihm that much more than Brahms - if at all. I seem to have a problem with the composers after Beethoven to Schoenberg... even with Beethoven honestly...

and even with Schoenberg. As opposed to with Bach, Mozart and Schubert.

So my favourite composers would b sth like:

1) Mozart
2) Bach
3) Schubert
4) Beethoven
5) Schoenberg
6) Brahms/Strauss/Webern/Berg

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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From: frankdbe...@gmail.com (Frank Berger)
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 by: Frank Berger - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:00 UTC

..On 5/17/2023 4:23 PM, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 2:59:07 PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 19:53:56 UTC+1, Herman wrote:
>>> This is why I started another topic...
>>> As soon as these two goons appear it's over with any discussion.
>> Every now and then Marc appears to be capable of conversation. Then he just flips his lid and goes into gibberish as if his frontal lobes were made of cheese. Unfortunately he has verbal diarrhea and just goes off at a tangent for post after post after post talking complete nonsense.
>
> The best remedy might be for everyone to cease to react to the non-productive posts, and only partake in the meaningful and substantive conversations. This is not aimed at anyone in >particular. When the conversations turn personal or insulting just ignore it repeatedly. Then the dialogue will once more become more constructive.

Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:14 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:52:23 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:02:32 UTC+2:
> > Thinking about my favourite composers again... I think I have to omit Schumann... I really can't say I like ihm that much more than Brahms - if at all. I seem to have a problem with the composers after Beethoven to Schoenberg... even with Beethoven honestly...
> and even with Schoenberg. As opposed to with Bach, Mozart and Schubert.
>
> So my favourite composers would b sth like:
>
> 1) Mozart
> 2) Bach
> 3) Schubert
> 4) Beethoven
> 5) Schoenberg
> 6) Brahms/Strauss/Webern/Berg

but oh god... Strauss is boring... listening to him again and remembering the other stuff... I don't know... maybe Mahler and Schumann are better... yes they are...

so... the composers I like most:

1) Mozart
2) Bach
3) Schubert
4) Beethoven
5) Schoenberg
6) Schumann/Brahms/Mahler/Webern/Berg... but then I feel I also need to add Haydn probably... ya... with him added, these are my favourite composers.

Anyway... the composers I care for most (since a while and for now): Mozart, Bach, Schubert, Beethoven and Schoenberg - they make my top 5.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:33 UTC

On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.

Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism, most of which get regularly ignored, including by me. But please admit that such accusations are extremely distasteful and insulting and at times it's understandable that people lose their cool.

Herman is a perfectly nice guy who has been hounded by Dan for ages. I can quite understand why he loses his cool at times.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:40 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:14:15 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:52:23 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:02:32 UTC+2:
> > > Thinking about my favourite composers again... I think I have to omit Schumann... I really can't say I like ihm that much more than Brahms - if at all. I seem to have a problem with the composers after Beethoven to Schoenberg... even with Beethoven honestly...
> > and even with Schoenberg. As opposed to with Bach, Mozart and Schubert.
> >
> > So my favourite composers would b sth like:
> >
> > 1) Mozart
> > 2) Bach
> > 3) Schubert
> > 4) Beethoven
> > 5) Schoenberg
> > 6) Brahms/Strauss/Webern/Berg
> but oh god... Strauss is boring... listening to him again and remembering the other stuff... I don't know... maybe Mahler and Schumann are better... yes they are...
>
> so... the composers I like most:
> 1) Mozart
> 2) Bach
> 3) Schubert
> 4) Beethoven
> 5) Schoenberg
> 6) Schumann/Brahms/Mahler/Webern/Berg... but then I feel I also need to add Haydn probably... ya... with him added, these are my favourite composers..

put Schumann and Mahler at 7) I guess with quite a gap in it... I am really not so interested in them... Schumann is often so... eh... well poet-type of guy... and Mahler just "whines" a bit too much for my taste... I just can't deal with this... and R. Strauss just never manages to grab me... and Wagner is obnoxious...

>
> Anyway... the composers I care for most (since a while and for now): Mozart, Bach, Schubert, Beethoven and Schoenberg - they make my top 5.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:43 UTC

Andy Evans schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:33:30 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.
> Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism, most of which get regularly ignored, including by me. But please admit that such accusations are extremely distasteful and insulting and at times it's understandable that people lose their cool.

How about you understand that some people also lose their cool with antisemites like you and (some/most) of the people at Al Jazeera...

Funny how you play the victim you fool... just like the Palestinians...

>
> Herman is a perfectly nice guy who has been hounded by Dan for ages. I can quite understand why he loses his cool at times.

"sometimes"? And tbh since the time I have been here it's been quite the other way around... you seem to have a very screwed version of realtiy... just as wrt Israel.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:46 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:40:14 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:14:15 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:52:23 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:02:32 UTC+2:
> > > > Thinking about my favourite composers again... I think I have to omit Schumann... I really can't say I like ihm that much more than Brahms - if at all. I seem to have a problem with the composers after Beethoven to Schoenberg... even with Beethoven honestly...
> > > and even with Schoenberg. As opposed to with Bach, Mozart and Schubert.
> > >
> > > So my favourite composers would b sth like:
> > >
> > > 1) Mozart
> > > 2) Bach
> > > 3) Schubert
> > > 4) Beethoven
> > > 5) Schoenberg
> > > 6) Brahms/Strauss/Webern/Berg
> > but oh god... Strauss is boring... listening to him again and remembering the other stuff... I don't know... maybe Mahler and Schumann are better.... yes they are...
> >
> > so... the composers I like most:
> > 1) Mozart
> > 2) Bach
> > 3) Schubert
> > 4) Beethoven
> > 5) Schoenberg
> > 6) Schumann/Brahms/Mahler/Webern/Berg... but then I feel I also need to add Haydn probably... ya... with him added, these are my favourite composers.
> put Schumann and Mahler at 7) I guess with quite a gap in it... I am really not so interested in them... Schumann is often so... eh... well poet-type of guy... and Mahler just "whines" a bit too much for my taste... I just can't deal with this... and R. Strauss just never manages to grab me... and Wagner is obnoxious...
> >
> > Anyway... the composers I care for most (since a while and for now): Mozart, Bach, Schubert, Beethoven and Schoenberg - they make my top 5.

I guess 7) Schumann, Mahler, Wagner, Strauss... in some way... but hmmmm... I don't think I need any of them... are they better than Liszt, Scriabin, Chopin, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky? Hmmm...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 21:54 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:46:41 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:40:14 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 23:14:15 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:52:23 UTC+2:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 22:02:32 UTC+2:
> > > > > Thinking about my favourite composers again... I think I have to omit Schumann... I really can't say I like ihm that much more than Brahms - if at all. I seem to have a problem with the composers after Beethoven to Schoenberg... even with Beethoven honestly...
> > > > and even with Schoenberg. As opposed to with Bach, Mozart and Schubert.
> > > >
> > > > So my favourite composers would b sth like:
> > > >
> > > > 1) Mozart
> > > > 2) Bach
> > > > 3) Schubert
> > > > 4) Beethoven
> > > > 5) Schoenberg
> > > > 6) Brahms/Strauss/Webern/Berg
> > > but oh god... Strauss is boring... listening to him again and remembering the other stuff... I don't know... maybe Mahler and Schumann are better... yes they are...
> > >
> > > so... the composers I like most:
> > > 1) Mozart
> > > 2) Bach
> > > 3) Schubert
> > > 4) Beethoven
> > > 5) Schoenberg
> > > 6) Schumann/Brahms/Mahler/Webern/Berg... but then I feel I also need to add Haydn probably... ya... with him added, these are my favourite composers.
> > put Schumann and Mahler at 7) I guess with quite a gap in it... I am really not so interested in them... Schumann is often so... eh... well poet-type of guy... and Mahler just "whines" a bit too much for my taste... I just can't deal with this... and R. Strauss just never manages to grab me... and Wagner is obnoxious...
> > >
> > > Anyway... the composers I care for most (since a while and for now): Mozart, Bach, Schubert, Beethoven and Schoenberg - they make my top 5.
> I guess 7) Schumann, Mahler, Wagner, Strauss... in some way... but hmmmm.... I don't think I need any of them... are they better than Liszt, Scriabin, Chopin, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky? Hmmm...

Haydn is also rather 7)

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:19 UTC

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I
> hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel,
> Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern
> music.

Can we discuss music earlier than Bach?
Does anyone here have any idea how
modern Frescobaldi's music is?

dk

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:30 UTC

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:19:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I
> > hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel,
> > Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern
> > music.
>
> Can we discuss music earlier than Bach?
> Does anyone here have any idea how
> modern Frescobaldi's music is?

https://youtu.be/aUTh6wrFozA

dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:32 UTC

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:19:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I
> > > hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel,
> > > Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern
> > > music.
> >
> > Can we discuss music earlier than Bach?
> > Does anyone here have any idea how
> > modern Frescobaldi's music is?
>
> https://youtu.be/aUTh6wrFozA

https://youtu.be/QJcSwjnFtNA?t=40

dk

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:45 UTC

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 00:32:55 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:19:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I
> > > > hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel,
> > > > Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern
> > > > music.
> > >
> > > Can we discuss music earlier than Bach?
> > > Does anyone here have any idea how
> > > modern Frescobaldi's music is?
> >
> > https://youtu.be/aUTh6wrFozA
> https://youtu.be/QJcSwjnFtNA?t=40
>
> dk

I will listen to it later, but after all of the confusion I must have caused about my favourite composers I'd like take a moment to clear it:

My favourite composers (and the only composers I really need) are:

Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Schoenberg, Webern ... not so sure about Berg... I seem to prefer Schoenberg and Webern by far....

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:51 UTC

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:45:17 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>
> My favourite composers (and the only composers I really need) are:
>
> Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert,
> Brahms, Schoenberg, Webern ... not
> so sure about Berg... I seem to prefer
> Schoenberg and Webern by far....

All German/Austrian -- what a surprise!

Quicky pour some bleach into your ears!

dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:58 UTC

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 00:51:43 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:45:17 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > My favourite composers (and the only composers I really need) are:
> >
> > Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert,
> > Brahms, Schoenberg, Webern ... not
> > so sure about Berg... I seem to prefer
> > Schoenberg and Webern by far....
> All German/Austrian -- what a surprise!
>
> Quicky pour some bleach into your ears!

If I had to guess yours: Chopin, Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Tatum, Evans, Debussy, Albeniz...

>
> dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 22:59 UTC

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 00:32:55 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:30:32 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:19:58 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 9:20:35 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I
> > > > hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel,
> > > > Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern
> > > > music.
> > >
> > > Can we discuss music earlier than Bach?
> > > Does anyone here have any idea how
> > > modern Frescobaldi's music is?
> >
> > https://youtu.be/aUTh6wrFozA
> https://youtu.be/QJcSwjnFtNA?t=40
>
> dk

Okay... both links... suck...

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Wed, 17 May 2023 23:01 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 00:58:52 UTC+2:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 00:51:43 UTC+2:
> > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:45:17 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > My favourite composers (and the only composers I really need) are:
> > >
> > > Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert,
> > > Brahms, Schoenberg, Webern ... not
> > > so sure about Berg... I seem to prefer
> > > Schoenberg and Webern by far....
> > All German/Austrian -- what a surprise!
> >
> > Quicky pour some bleach into your ears!
> If I had to guess yours: Chopin, Rachmaninov, Scriabin, Tatum, Evans, Debussy, Albeniz...

then maybe also Prokofiev and Tchaikovsky and Ravel and maybe Franck... or sth... and maybe Saint Saens... maybe also a little Schubert and Mozart...

>
> >
> > dk

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 by: Pluted Pup - Thu, 18 May 2023 00:18 UTC

On Tue, 16 May 2023 23:04:07 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Pluted Pup schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:24:51 UTC+2:
> > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
>
> This ofc is utter bullshit that could only originate from an antisemitic mind... Schoenberg carried on the Austro-German lineage; what did Prokofiev do? trying to speak french as a russian... what is so germanic about this?
>
> There is a saying you know... that trying to help antisemites (and I'm including jt here, even though he is not as crazy as you are) think properly is like teaching monkeys to talk...

Germanic music is music that people Like to hear, Jewish
music is an Ordeal that's patronized for political reasons.

Prokovieff has the Romeo and Juliet ballet and the
Nevsky soundtrack, Shoenberg is drab and dull that's
intended to scare kids away from classical music.

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 by: Pluted Pup - Thu, 18 May 2023 00:27 UTC

On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > >
> > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> >
> > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I´m not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940´s composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn´t want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don´t love most of it.
>
> How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.

Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?

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 by: Frank Berger - Thu, 18 May 2023 00:55 UTC

On 5/17/2023 5:33 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.
>
> Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism,

"Flooded?" LOL.

> most of which get regularly ignored, including by me.

Still laughing. Can't stop.

But please admit that such accusations are extremely distasteful and insulting and at times it's understandable that people lose their cool.
>

You seem to think an accusation of antisemitism is "distasteful" even when there is evidence to suggest it's' truth. When an innocent person is indicted for a crime and is acquitted, was the indictment "distasteful," or just possibly warranted based on evidence?

> Herman is a perfectly nice guy who has been hounded by Dan for ages. I can quite understand why he loses his cool at times.

The level of venom expressed by Herman is not suggestive of a nice person or a healthy person. Nobody is perfect.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 06:01 UTC

Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:18:35 UTC+2:
> On Tue, 16 May 2023 23:04:07 -0700, Marc S wrote:
>
> > Pluted Pup schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 01:24:51 UTC+2:
> > > Prokofiev is a million times more Germanic than Shoenberg!
> > > Putting Shoenberg next to Brahms and Schubert is silly.
> >
> > This ofc is utter bullshit that could only originate from an antisemitic mind... Schoenberg carried on the Austro-German lineage; what did Prokofiev do? trying to speak french as a russian... what is so germanic about this?
> >
> > There is a saying you know... that trying to help antisemites (and I'm including jt here, even though he is not as crazy as you are) think properly is like teaching monkeys to talk...
>
> Germanic music is music that people Like to hear, Jewish
> music is an Ordeal that's patronized for political reasons.

Hey monkey, before I help you learn to hear things, I would first need to help you think properly.

Ask yourself what could be wrong with what you said... and let me know if you find anything wrong with what you said.

>
> Prokovieff has the Romeo and Juliet ballet and the
> Nevsky soundtrack, Shoenberg is drab and dull that's
> intended to scare kids away from classical music.

I find Romeo and Juliet and Nevsky very dull... you see... Schoenberg is more for the musical people, while Prokofieff is for the monkeys...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 06:09 UTC

Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
>
> > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > >
> > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > >
> > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> >
> > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
>
> Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?

You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).

The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than Schoenberg... well... whatever...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 18 May 2023 06:16 UTC

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:29:34 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow
> > him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory...
> > yet I love him.
>
> Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?

Obviously not -- it is Marc's own unadornoed opinion.

dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 06:22 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 08:09:50 UTC+2:
> Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > >
> > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > >
> > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > >
> > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> >
> > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
>
> The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than Schoenberg... well... whatever...

It's interesting in hindsight... that at first I liked Prokofieff more than Schoenberg... or rather I thought this, because I didn't really listen to a lot of Schoenberg and thought of him as a guy "experimenting" or sth... this changed quite drastically over the years. I remember writing to a friend that Adorno might be wrong about what he said about Sibelius etc - at a time I sort of thought that I enjoyed Sibelius...

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