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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

SubjectAuthor
* Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
|   `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|    `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|     +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|     `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?gggg gggg
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?gggg gggg
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
|  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
|   `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?mINE109
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Herman
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Chris J.
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Pluted Pup
|   +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|   |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   | +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   | |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|   |  +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   |  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|   `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|    `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Pluted Pup
|     `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?raymond....@gmail.com
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?number_six
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andrew Clarke
+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
|+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Pluted Pup
|| +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| |+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?raymond....@gmail.com
|| | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
|| | +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | |  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
|| | |   +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|| | |   `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Al Eisner
|| | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| | `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
||  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
|+* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
|| +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
|| `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
||  +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  |+- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
||  | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  |  +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Mandryka
||  |  |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Herman
||  |  | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
||  |  | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  | `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Herman
||  |  |  |  +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |  +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |   +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   |`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   | `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
||  |  |  |   |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |   `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?JohnGavin
||  |  |  |    +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
||  |  |  |    |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |    `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  |     `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |      +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |      `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  |       +* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Andy Evans
||  |  |  |       |`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  |       +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |       +- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  |  |       `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
||  |  |  |        `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Frank Berger
||  |  |  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Marc S
||  |  `- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?HT
||  `* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren
|`- Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Todd M. McComb
`* Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?Dan Koren

Pages:123456
Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

<3b7d64dd-06b4-4d82-8e3d-96ea6c0d15adn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 06:23 UTC

Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 08:16:25 UTC+2:
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 5:29:34 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
> > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow
> > > him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory...
> > > yet I love him.
> >
> > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> Obviously not -- it is Marc's own unadornoed opinion.

Toda raba for speaking the truth.

To spread a bit of Yiddishkeit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEFsaYzNAAM

>
> dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Thu, 18 May 2023 07:10 UTC

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

....usual bullsiht deleted

Social Skills 101
When you continually make unfounded accusations against people, they are not your friends and you should not expect them to be your friends.

End of Social Skills101.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: raymond....@gmail.com (raymond....@gmail.com)
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 by: raymond....@gmail.co - Thu, 18 May 2023 07:10 UTC

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 16:09:50 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > >
> > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > >
> > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > >
> > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> >
> > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
>
> The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than >Schoenberg... well... whatever...

Apart from Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, he wrote little that should bother most people's time and effort. Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself. As for someone who is a classical newbie, and yet professes to know everything about CM, and who is constantly debating who is best amongst a really dreary lot, maybe you should just throw the league tables away and just follow Adorno's dreary ears. After all, why listen when one can use someone else's ears.

Ray Hall, Taree

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Thu, 18 May 2023 07:18 UTC

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 08:10:44 UTC+1, raymond....@gmail.com wrote:

Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself.....
> Ray Hall, Taree

Permit me to join you in the 'little' people....

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 07:51 UTC

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:10:44 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 16:09:50 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > > >
> > > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> > >
> > > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> > You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
> >
> > The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than >Schoenberg... well... whatever...
> Apart from Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, he wrote little that should bother most people's time and effort. Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself. As for someone who is a classical newbie, and yet professes to know everything about CM, and who is constantly debating who is best amongst a really dreary lot, maybe you should just throw the league tables away and just follow Adorno's dreary ears. After all, why listen when one can use someone else's ears.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

What is remarkable about monkeys like you (and this is sth that Adorno - if I remember correctly - also talked about in "Meaning of working through the past") is how you get all heated up about things that are pretty harmless - say: Me talking about my favourite composers and not thinking highly of Prokofiev. But when it comes to serious issues - say Pluted's obvious antisemitism - you are all silent... Well... it comes as no surprise since you are an antisemite as well...

You seem to be more aggravated about me criticising music that you like, than that the tits of minors are being cut off by people who consider themselves to be medical "experts"...

You are of weak character...

It should also be added that "most people" are stupid... You see... Truth isn't democratic...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 07:56 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:51:43 UTC+2:
> raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:10:44 UTC+2:
> > On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 16:09:50 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > > Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > > > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> > > >
> > > > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> > > You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
> > >
> > > The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit".... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than >Schoenberg... well... whatever...
> > Apart from Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, he wrote little that should bother most people's time and effort. Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself. As for someone who is a classical newbie, and yet professes to know everything about CM, and who is constantly debating who is best amongst a really dreary lot, maybe you should just throw the league tables away and just follow Adorno's dreary ears. After all, why listen when one can use someone else's ears.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> What is remarkable about monkeys like you (and this is sth that Adorno - if I remember correctly - also talked about in "Meaning of working through the past") is how you get all heated up about things that are pretty harmless - say: Me talking about my favourite composers and not thinking highly of Prokofiev. But when it comes to serious issues - say Pluted's obvious antisemitism - you are all silent... Well... it comes as no surprise since you are an antisemite as well...
>
> You seem to be more aggravated about me criticising music that you like, than that the tits of minors are being cut off by people who consider themselves to be medical "experts"...
>
> You are of weak character...
>
> It should also be added that "most people" are stupid... You see... Truth isn't democratic...

Same shit with Herman btw... he likes to shit on Dan... and profess how he is against antisemitism etc... but when it comes down to it... he reveals himself to be an antisemite as well...

He likes to shit on Trump... but no words about Gender clinics in the NLD that cut off the tits of minors... because you know... Herman can't think for himself, so Herman will just say anything that is accepted in the mainstream; like this Herman believes himself to be on the right side. People seem to have forgotten what mainstream thought in Germany was like from 1933-1945... and also afterwards in some way...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 08:00 UTC

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:10:44 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 16:09:50 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > > >
> > > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> > >
> > > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> > You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
> >
> > The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than >Schoenberg... well... whatever...
> Apart from Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, he wrote little that should bother most people's time and effort. Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself. As for someone who is a classical newbie, and yet professes to know everything about CM, and who is constantly debating who is best amongst a really dreary lot, maybe you should just throw the league tables away and just follow Adorno's dreary ears. After all, why listen when one can use someone else's ears.

Just to add for the idiots here: I never said that I know everything about CM... I just know good music...

>
> Ray Hall, Taree

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 08:15 UTC

raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:10:44 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 16:09:50 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > > >
> > > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > > >
> > > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> > >
> > > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> > You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
> >
> > The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than >Schoenberg... well... whatever...
>
> Apart from Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, he wrote little that should bother most people's time and effort. Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself. As for someone who is a classical newbie, and yet professes to know everything about CM, and who is constantly debating who is best amongst a really dreary lot, maybe you should just throw the league tables away and just follow Adorno's dreary ears. After all, why listen when one can use someone else's ears.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree

I should also add that all our interactions showed that you are pretty much a despicable human being... just as Herman and Andy.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 08:19 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:56:42 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:51:43 UTC+2:
> > raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 09:10:44 UTC+2:
> > > On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 16:09:50 UTC+10, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Pluted Pup schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:29:34 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Wed, 17 May 2023 07:27:47 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > JohnGavin schrieb am Mittwoch, 17. Mai 2023 um 16:24:07 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 12:20:35???PM UTC-4, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > > > > > > Bach, Schubert etc are all wonderful but I hardly see any posts about Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Bartok etc, let alone more modern music.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This huge emphasis on classical/romantic leaves me not wanting to participate much - my usual listening repertoire is more modern.
> > > > > > > My memory is that if you look through the WAYLT threads each month, you will find lots of recordings of contemporary music discussed.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I tend to go as far as Messiaen and rarely farther. My rule is that if the music seems primarily intellectual I惴 not very interested - and this unfortunately is the case with post 1940愀 composers.. As for Debussy, Ravel, Poulenc, Durufle, they are composers I wouldn愒 want to live without. I recently came to the realization that I like quite a bit of Stravinsky, but I don愒 love most of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How then is it that I like Schoenberg? I can't follow him intellectually as I have no idea of music theory... yet I love him.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you like him because Adorno told you to like him?
> > > > You see... this is a typical thing antisemites do... they come up with accusations that have no basis in reality... I did not read anything Adorno wrote about Schoenberg (yet), but ofc I know that he liked him, otoh Schoenberg didn't seem to be too fond of Adorno (so I would actually have to not like Schoenberg maybe? and be more fond of Berg? Which I am not (as of yet at least)).
> > > >
> > > > The reason I love Schoenberg is very simple: He reached heights (which a monkey like you has trouble hearing) that most (99%) other composers did not. And there is something very German about his music: "innerlichkeit"... This is something you won't find in Prokofieff or any other music outside of Germany... at least in my experience... If you think that Prokofieff's music is more German than >Schoenberg... well... whatever...
> > > Apart from Schoenberg's Gurrelieder, he wrote little that should bother most people's time and effort. Prokofiev was a giant alongside Schoenberg, at least for the 'little' people like myself. As for someone who is a classical newbie, and yet professes to know everything about CM, and who is constantly debating who is best amongst a really dreary lot, maybe you should just throw the league tables away and just follow Adorno's dreary ears. After all, why listen when one can use someone else's ears.
> > >
> > > Ray Hall, Taree
> > What is remarkable about monkeys like you (and this is sth that Adorno - if I remember correctly - also talked about in "Meaning of working through the past") is how you get all heated up about things that are pretty harmless - say: Me talking about my favourite composers and not thinking highly of Prokofiev. But when it comes to serious issues - say Pluted's obvious antisemitism - you are all silent... Well... it comes as no surprise since you are an antisemite as well...
> >
> > You seem to be more aggravated about me criticising music that you like, than that the tits of minors are being cut off by people who consider themselves to be medical "experts"...
> >
> > You are of weak character...
> >
> > It should also be added that "most people" are stupid... You see... Truth isn't democratic...
> Same shit with Herman btw... he likes to shit on Dan... and profess how he is against antisemitism etc... but when it comes down to it... he reveals himself to be an antisemite as well...
>
> He likes to shit on Trump... but no words about Gender clinics in the NLD that cut off the tits of minors... because you know... Herman can't think for himself, so Herman will just say anything that is accepted in the mainstream; like this Herman believes himself to be on the right side. People seem to have forgotten what mainstream thought in Germany was like from 1933-1945... and also afterwards in some way...

And it's also interesting wrt Herman... you see... he seems to be more aggravated that I use the word tits and that I speak about this very serious issue, than that NLD and other European countries legitimate barbaric practices such as cutting of the tits of minors... This shows very clearly what Herman is... a despicable human being. There are only two problems for people like Andy, Herman and Ray... "Trump" and also "Israel"...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Thu, 18 May 2023 09:35 UTC

Just a reminder that this thread is about "Music later than Brahms"

Please stick to the subject.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 18 May 2023 09:57 UTC

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 2:35:05 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>
> Just a reminder that this thread is
> about "Music later than Brahms"

Threads have lives of their own! ;-)

> Please stick to the subject.

I'd rather stick it to the subject.

dk

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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 by: Frank Berger - Thu, 18 May 2023 13:17 UTC

On 5/18/2023 3:10 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> ...usual bullsiht deleted
>
> Social Skills 101
> When you continually make unfounded accusations against people, they are not your friends and you should not expect them to be your friends.
>
> End of Social Skills101.

That is a true statement. It is irrelevant, though.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 20:41 UTC

Frank Berger schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:55:16 UTC+2:
> On 5/17/2023 5:33 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> >> Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.
> >
> > Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism,
> "Flooded?" LOL.
> > most of which get regularly ignored, including by me.
> Still laughing. Can't stop.

It's just really just too funny... "flooded"... "most of which get regularly ignored, including by me"... I canÄt stio laughing I cant even write

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 18 May 2023 20:42 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 22:41:29 UTC+2:
> Frank Berger schrieb am Donnerstag, 18. Mai 2023 um 02:55:16 UTC+2:
> > On 5/17/2023 5:33 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, 17 May 2023 at 22:02:50 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> > >
> > >> Logical but pretty useless advice. The people who most abhor a certain type of post (Herman re: Dan, Andy re: antisemitism, e.g.) seem to be incapable of ignoring same.
> > >
> > > Not true. This newsgroup is flooded with accusations of antisemitism,
> > "Flooded?" LOL.
> > > most of which get regularly ignored, including by me.
> > Still laughing. Can't stop.
>
> It's just really just too funny... "flooded"... "most of which get regularly ignored, including by me"... I canÄt stio laughing I cant even write

What a funny day on here... so beautiful.

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 18 May 2023 22:09 UTC

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:10:23 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> ...usual bullsiht deleted
>
> Social Skills 101
> When you continually make unfounded accusations against people,

Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?

Thx

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 by: Frank Berger - Thu, 18 May 2023 23:09 UTC

On 5/18/2023 6:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:10:23 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>> ...usual bullsiht deleted
>>
>> Social Skills 101
>> When you continually make unfounded accusations against people,
>
> Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?
>
> Thx
>
>

I don't believe Andy usually responds to requests like this. Andy accused me of something once, not sure what, possibly accusing someone of antisemitism, which I don't think I have ever done in RMCR, and challenged him to find one example. He didn't respond.

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 18 May 2023 23:12 UTC

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:09:35 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 5/18/2023 6:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:10:23 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
> >> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>
> >> ...usual bullsiht deleted
> >>
> >> Social Skills 101
> >> When you continually make unfounded accusations against people,
> >
> > Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?
>
> I don't believe Andy usually responds to requests like this.

Indeed he doesn't.

> Andy accused me of something once, not sure what, possibly
> accusing someone of antisemitism, which I don't think I have
> ever done in RMCR, and challenged him to find one example.
> He didn't respond.

Andy suffers from a disease that is quite common on r.m.c.r:
he believes everything he writes is so completely self-evident
that no proofs or supporting evidence should ever be required.

dk

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 by: Graham - Fri, 19 May 2023 02:00 UTC

On 2023-05-18 5:12 p.m., Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:09:35 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 5/18/2023 6:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:10:23 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...usual bullsiht deleted
>>>>
>>>> Social Skills 101
>>>> When you continually make unfounded accusations against people,
>>>
>>> Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?
>>
>> I don't believe Andy usually responds to requests like this.
>
> Indeed he doesn't.
>
>> Andy accused me of something once, not sure what, possibly
>> accusing someone of antisemitism, which I don't think I have
>> ever done in RMCR, and challenged him to find one example.
>> He didn't respond.
>
> Andy suffers from a disease that is quite common on r.m.c.r:
> he believes everything he writes is so completely self-evident
> that no proofs or supporting evidence should ever be required.
>
> dk
Pot, kettle, black?

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 by: Frank Berger - Fri, 19 May 2023 03:08 UTC

On 5/18/2023 7:12 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:09:35 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 5/18/2023 6:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
>>> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:10:23 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 01:55:16 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ...usual bullsiht deleted
>>>>
>>>> Social Skills 101
>>>> When you continually make unfounded accusations against people,
>>>
>>> Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?
>>
>> I don't believe Andy usually responds to requests like this.
>
> Indeed he doesn't.
>
>> Andy accused me of something once, not sure what, possibly
>> accusing someone of antisemitism, which I don't think I have
>> ever done in RMCR, and challenged him to find one example.
>> He didn't respond.
>
> Andy suffers from a disease that is quite common on r.m.c.r:
> he believes everything he writes is so completely self-evident
> that no proofs or supporting evidence should ever be required.
>
> dk

Yes.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Fri, 19 May 2023 07:51 UTC

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 00:12:45 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?
> > > > I don't believe Andy usually responds to requests like this.

> Indeed he doesn't.

No I don't. I have no feelings one way or the other about Jewish people or any other religion or race.

If you make accusations of antisemitism that's YOUR problem, not mine. But be aware that, as in Social Skills 101, when you make unfounded accusations against a person that person:
1. Will not trust you again
2. Will not be your friend again

So by making unfounded accusations you are actually creating bad feelings against yourself. That's YOUR problem. If you want people to trust you again, then stop making accusations and apologise.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 19 May 2023 11:18 UTC

Andy Evans schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 09:51:08 UTC+2:
> On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 00:12:45 UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > Can you point to actual examples rather than preach netiquette?
> > > > > I don't believe Andy usually responds to requests like this.
>
> > Indeed he doesn't.
> No I don't. I have no feelings one way or the other about Jewish people or any other religion or race.
>
> If you make accusations of antisemitism that's YOUR problem, not mine. But be aware that, as in Social Skills 101, when you make unfounded accusations against a person that person:
> 1. Will not trust you again
> 2. Will not be your friend again
>
> So by making unfounded accusations you are actually creating bad feelings against yourself. That's YOUR problem. If you want people to trust you again, then stop making accusations and apologise.

The thing, Andy, is this: You are the one making unfounded accusations against a) Frank (who seems to have never called you an antisemite - I can't recall it either. Neither did Dan) and b) more imporantly against Israel (*the IDF purposefully shooting a journalist).

So it's just pure projection on your part... that you want Frank to apologise, while it's very obviously you who should apologise... is just fucking hilarious...

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Fri, 19 May 2023 11:29 UTC

Yet again this thread has been destroyed by accusations of antisemitrism. It started off like many, many other threads as a perfectly innocent discussion of music. Then the usual poison started happening - Marc S sprayed out multiple accusations of anti-Semitism, Dan joined in and then Frank came along.
- Marc S is plain obnoxious. Just a lonely troll needing friends he never gets.
- Dan hides under a non-aligned flag of being “just a free thinker who can say what he likes”, but in fact makes direct accusations of antisemitism
- Frank is a sly and smug contributor who works through innuendo, and then claims “I didn’t say anything”
Between the three of them – “Il Trittico Malevolo” – they pollute threads about music with endless discussions of anti-Semitism. They insult ng members and then smugly demand that such members “provide evidence against their accusations”, which of course they are not going to get since they are themselves the source of all the poison.

This will never stop because all three enjoy baiting ng members in some kind of weird sadistic sport. They are all three a disgrace to the ng and should apologise or just leave the ng and spread their poison somewhere else. Unfortunately this is very unlikely, so we poor music lovers just wait for more and more threads to be destroyed in exacty the same way.

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 19 May 2023 11:33 UTC

Andy Evans schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 13:29:20 UTC+2:
> Yet again this thread has been destroyed by accusations of antisemitrism. It started off like many, many other threads as a perfectly innocent discussion of music. Then the usual poison started happening - Marc S sprayed out multiple accusations of anti-Semitism, Dan joined in and then Frank came along.

Look you monkey... learn to think properly... pluted was being antisemitic again and that has been called out... just as civilized people do... I get that you are a monkey though.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 19 May 2023 11:41 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 13:33:40 UTC+2:
> Andy Evans schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 13:29:20 UTC+2:
> > Yet again this thread has been destroyed by accusations of antisemitrism. It started off like many, many other threads as a perfectly innocent discussion of music. Then the usual poison started happening - Marc S sprayed out multiple accusations of anti-Semitism, Dan joined in and then Frank came along.
> Look you monkey... learn to think properly... pluted was being antisemitic again and that has been called out... just as civilized people do... I get that you are a monkey though.

Okay I have to correct myself: I also called out your antisemitism on this thread. And I'm perfectly fine with this.

Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?

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Subject: Re: Can we discuss music later than Brahms?
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 19 May 2023 11:44 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 13:41:33 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 13:33:40 UTC+2:
> > Andy Evans schrieb am Freitag, 19. Mai 2023 um 13:29:20 UTC+2:
> > > Yet again this thread has been destroyed by accusations of antisemitrism. It started off like many, many other threads as a perfectly innocent discussion of music. Then the usual poyouison started happening - Marc S sprayed out multiple accusations of anti-Semitism, Dan joined in and then Frank came along.
> > Look you monkey... learn to think properly... pluted was being antisemitic again and that has been called out... just as civilized people do... I get that you are a monkey though.
> Okay I have to correct myself: I also called out your antisemitism on this thread. And I'm perfectly fine with this.

And it should be mentioned that you kept your mouth shut on pluted's antisemitism, instead you were solely focused on denying that you are in any way an antisemite... very funny...

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