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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Modern music (post 1940)

SubjectAuthor
* Modern music (post 1940)HT
+* Re: Modern music (post 1940)Todd M. McComb
|`* Re: Modern music (post 1940)HT
| `* Re: Modern music (post 1940)HT
|  `- Re: Modern music (post 1940)Todd M. McComb
+- Re: Modern music (post 1940)Todd M. McComb
`* Re: Modern music (post 1940)Ellie Kerry
 +- Re: Modern music (post 1940)Todd M. McComb
 `* Re: Modern music (post 1940)HT
  +- Re: Modern music (post 1940)Andy Evans
  `- Re: Modern music (post 1940)cheregi

1
Modern music (post 1940)

<937321c0-2add-4f79-a567-5b7534109741n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Modern music (post 1940)
From: hvtu...@xs4all.nl (HT)
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 by: HT - Thu, 18 May 2023 20:54 UTC

For years, I have been interested in the Turkish composer Ahmet Adnan Saygun.

Saygun wrote in the 1960s a set of 10 études, based on so called Aksak rhythms. Aksak is a term in Ottoman musical theory, and refers to patterns of uneven rhythms.

The link below refers to Fazil Says' interpretation of the first étude:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv4ZmUNhEl0

According to WIki some of these rhythm patterns have been taken up by jazz musicians, in particular Dave Brubeck. (Wiki)

Henk

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<u463n4$t9a$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 21:01:25 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Thu, 18 May 2023 21:01 UTC

In article <937321c0-2add-4f79-a567-5b7534109741n@googlegroups.com>,
HT <hvtuijl@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>For years, I have been interested in the Turkish composer Ahmet
>Adnan Saygun. Saygun wrote in the 1960s a set of 10 études, based
>on so called Aksak rhythms.
>The link below refers to Fazil Says' interpretation of the first
>étude:

I'm not sure I understand that last sentence. Is there a (commercial)
recording?

I see there is a Naxos recording of other piano music....

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<ff53c325-e57f-4df4-8d2e-e508183ca565n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
From: hvtu...@xs4all.nl (HT)
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 by: HT - Thu, 18 May 2023 22:33 UTC

Op donderdag 18 mei 2023 om 23:03:38 UTC+2 schreef Todd M. McComb:

> I'm not sure I understand that last sentence. Is there a (commercial)
> recording?

This one, for example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD21CBN6KkE

Henk

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<0fc27408-9e04-4ea1-826a-57c487a03ab6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
From: hvtu...@xs4all.nl (HT)
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 by: HT - Thu, 18 May 2023 23:06 UTC

I probably misunderstood your post. On Albany, Kathryn Woodward has recorded a selection of those études.

On YT there is a complete set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0WscvbZk5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ultgngo4_TQ

Henk

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<u46dbg$47b$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
Date: Thu, 18 May 2023 23:45:52 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
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References: <937321c0-2add-4f79-a567-5b7534109741n@googlegroups.com> <u463n4$t9a$1@hope.eyrie.org> <ff53c325-e57f-4df4-8d2e-e508183ca565n@googlegroups.com> <0fc27408-9e04-4ea1-826a-57c487a03ab6n@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Thu, 18 May 2023 23:45 UTC

In article <0fc27408-9e04-4ea1-826a-57c487a03ab6n@googlegroups.com>,
HT <hvtuijl@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>I probably misunderstood your post. On Albany, Kathryn Woodward has
>recorded a selection of those études.

Yes, OK.... I see that Saygun is actually rather well-recorded,
with various sets on Cpo. The String Quartets seem like potentially
more my thing....

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<u4894s$bea$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 16:46:20 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Fri, 19 May 2023 16:46 UTC

Since people have been mentioning both Stravinsky & jazz frequently....

Swiss-NYC pianist Sylvie Courvoisier created a solo piano _Rite of
Spring_ together with a contemporary dancer, but the Stravinsky
Trust nixed it, saying she would have to play the composer's own
two-piano arrangement. Which she then did, plus composing a
response/impressions piece:

https://sylviecourvoisier.bandcamp.com/album/the-rite-of-spring-spectre-dun-songe

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<145de8b8-e7ec-4bc3-aea3-c7c27b29088an@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
From: ellie.ke...@georgeblood.com (Ellie Kerry)
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 by: Ellie Kerry - Fri, 19 May 2023 17:45 UTC

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:54:54 PM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> For years, I have been interested in the Turkish composer Ahmet Adnan Saygun.
>
> Saygun wrote in the 1960s a set of 10 études, based on so called Aksak rhythms. Aksak is a term in Ottoman musical theory, and refers to patterns of uneven rhythms.
>
> The link below refers to Fazil Says' interpretation of the first étude:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv4ZmUNhEl0
>
> According to WIki some of these rhythm patterns have been taken up by jazz musicians, in particular Dave Brubeck. (Wiki)
>
> Henk

The aksak ('limping') rhythm has been a fascinating object of study for multiple generations of 20th-c musicians and musicologists since it's one of vanishingly few parts of Ottoman music actually retained from the Turkish Turks' Central Asian Turkic history. One finds aksak-like rhythm also in parts of the Central Asian Shashmaqom art-music repertoire. Historically it has a certain swing to it that can't really be notated in Western notation, but I guess in Turkey nobody really plays it like that anymore. I wonder what the situation was in the 60s when Saygun wrote these, i.e. what HE meant exactly by 'aksak'...

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<u48d8a$e7i$1@hope.eyrie.org>

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From: mcc...@medieval.org (Todd M. McComb)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical.recordings
Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
Date: Fri, 19 May 2023 17:56:26 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Medieval Music & Arts Foundation
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References: <937321c0-2add-4f79-a567-5b7534109741n@googlegroups.com> <145de8b8-e7ec-4bc3-aea3-c7c27b29088an@googlegroups.com>
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 by: Todd M. McComb - Fri, 19 May 2023 17:56 UTC

In article <145de8b8-e7ec-4bc3-aea3-c7c27b29088an@googlegroups.com>,
Ellie Kerry <ellie.kerry@georgeblood.com> wrote:
>I wonder what the situation was in the 60s when Saygun wrote these,
>i.e. what HE meant exactly by 'aksak'...

He seems to have been a part of regularizing it, but I don't have
any real info....

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

<8889e02d-5276-4b7e-ae82-a4b7c853cd37n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
From: hvtu...@xs4all.nl (HT)
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 by: HT - Fri, 19 May 2023 18:40 UTC

Op vrijdag 19 mei 2023 om 19:45:44 UTC+2 schreef Ellie Kerry:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:54:54 PM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > For years, I have been interested in the Turkish composer Ahmet Adnan Saygun.
> >

> The aksak ('limping') rhythm has been a fascinating object of study for multiple generations of 20th-c musicians and musicologists since it's one of vanishingly few parts of Ottoman music actually retained from the Turkish Turks' Central Asian Turkic history. One finds aksak-like rhythm also in parts of the Central Asian Shashmaqom art-music repertoire. Historically it has a certain swing to it that can't really be notated in Western notation, but I guess in Turkey nobody really plays it like that anymore. I wonder what the situation was in the 60s when Saygun wrote these, i.e. what HE meant exactly by 'aksak'...

His Études and Preludes in Aksak rhythm illustrate what he meant by it.. If you are interested in it, you can look it up in the scores. They are available on Presto Music.

The following might be of help, if you need any. This is the abstract of a paper based on a section of the author’s PhD dissertation, From Empire to Republic: Western Art Music, Nationalism, and the Merging Mediation of Saygun’s Op.26 Yunus Emre Oratorio, (2017). Supervisor Prof. Dr. Michael Frishkopf. Dr. Ozgecan Karadagli, karadagl@ualberta.ca
Abstract:
"This paper aims to show the significance and the idiosyncrasies of the collaboration between Turkish composer Ahmet Adnan Saygun and Hungarian composer, pianist, and ethnomusicologist Bela Bartok during and after Bartok’s Anatolian field trip in 1936. This exchange was particularly important because of the praxis of theory and fieldwork. Although both Saygun and Bartok were known for their Western art music compositions, ethnomusicological studies profoundly impacted their creativity; thus, they were truly bi-musical.
Their fieldtrip findings, both published at the same time - 40 years later, are important documents in terms of their authors’ aesthetic, national, and educational attitude towards the musical/cultural material. Thus, this paper traces their historical motives and approaches to the collaborations in the midst of heightened nationalism; it also shows the methods and the process of the transmutation of peasant music to national music; and ultimately the paper attempts to substantiate the profound effect Bartok had on Saygun."

Henk

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

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Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
From: performa...@gmail.com (Andy Evans)
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 by: Andy Evans - Fri, 19 May 2023 19:27 UTC

I've never heard of Aksak so I checked out the YT tutorial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLvoDldJGGs

Here are 2 examples of unusual beats I find interesting:

The beginning of St Vincent - "Cruel"

Tony Williams "Ego"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb3lXma4v1A&t=377s

Re: Modern music (post 1940)

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Date: Sun, 21 May 2023 07:39:11 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Modern music (post 1940)
From: elirke...@gmail.com (cheregi)
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 by: cheregi - Sun, 21 May 2023 14:39 UTC

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 2:40:43 PM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> Op vrijdag 19 mei 2023 om 19:45:44 UTC+2 schreef Ellie Kerry:
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:54:54 PM UTC-4, HT wrote:
> > > For years, I have been interested in the Turkish composer Ahmet Adnan Saygun.
> > >
> > The aksak ('limping') rhythm has been a fascinating object of study for multiple generations of 20th-c musicians and musicologists since it's one of vanishingly few parts of Ottoman music actually retained from the Turkish Turks' Central Asian Turkic history. One finds aksak-like rhythm also in parts of the Central Asian Shashmaqom art-music repertoire. Historically it has a certain swing to it that can't really be notated in Western notation, but I guess in Turkey nobody really plays it like that anymore. I wonder what the situation was in the 60s when Saygun wrote these, i.e. what HE meant exactly by 'aksak'...
> His Études and Preludes in Aksak rhythm illustrate what he meant by it.

I wonder though if there's also an element of deliberately idiosyncratic extension or exploration though too, right, like here is 'the spirit of aksak filtered through my personal compositional sensibilities' or something like that. I finally listened to the Fazil Say recording up top and even though I'm far from expert on Ottoman classical rhythmic cycles it was fun to try to hear the aksak 'vibe' coming through in different ways. Thanks for the paper I will track it down.

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