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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

SubjectAuthor
* Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewAndrew Clarke
|+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|||`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||| `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewAndy Evans
|||  `- Re: Tar -- the Movie Reviewraymond....@gmail.com
||`- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|`- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|| `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  | +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  | | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |  +- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |  +- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |  `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |  `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  |   +- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |   `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewFrank Berger
||  |    +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMatthew Silverstein
||  |    |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewFrank Berger
||  |    | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMatthew Silverstein
||  |    |  `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |    |   `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |    `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  |     `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewFrank Berger
||  |      `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||   `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||    `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewPluted Pup
| +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |+- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |+- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewPluted Pup
| | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |  +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |  |`- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |  `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewAlex Brown
 `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett

Pages:12
Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Sun, 21 May 2023 05:23 UTC

"Tár" is a movie starring Cate Blanchett about a woman conductor of the
Berlin Philharmonic. They attempt to play some Mahler but never quite
get around to it, never mind the Elgar.

A few random thoughts about the movie:

* The first seven minutes or so are the credits that generally appear
at the end. You can fast forward them because there are still the
credits you'd care about at the end anyway.

* The whole first hour is horribly boring. I did turn off the dvd
player at this point, and decided it wasn't worth it, but I woke up the
next day and decided to tough it out. I'm glad I did because that
segment actually held my interest and was completely taken by surprise
by a most remarkable display of flight by Ms. Blanchett.

*Either Cate Blanchett horribly acted in this role, or she tried to be
the conductor that every orchestra member hates. Or both. Lots of "I'm
going to explain to you what this music really means" stuff. Cate,
you're no Leonard Bernstein. Nor even a Berenstein Bear.

*It's unclear what purpose this movie has, because it tends to go off
in new directions as it progresses, but it probably will give you
insight as to what James Levine's last years were probably like.

*For a movie about a conductor, there's very little music in it.

* Besides the lofty pronouncements about what music should do to you
when you hear it, there are a few music lore anecdotes thrown in that
everyone here has heard already, such as Lully killing himself with his
own baton, etc.

* Nominated for Best Picture, Deservedly didn't deserve it.

*There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,
cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.

*The music (what there is of it) seems performed live and with real
orchestral people and Sophie Kauer is a remarkable cellist, from what
we can hear from her.

-Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Andrew Clarke - Sun, 21 May 2023 06:11 UTC

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 3:23:47 PM UTC+10, Owen Hartnett wrote:

> *Either Cate Blanchett horribly acted in this role, or she tried to be
> the conductor that every orchestra member hates. Or both. Lots of "I'm
> going to explain to you what this music really means" stuff. Cate,
> you're no Leonard Bernstein. Nor even a Berenstein Bear.
>

> -Owen

Owen it's spelt Berenstain, which seems closer to the Yiddish. It does avoid the 'steen' / 'stain' dilemma.

Perhaps Ms Blanchett is planning a remake of 'Forever Amber'?

Tar Tar For Now,

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 06:58 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,
> cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
>

Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...

What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example...)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.

Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.

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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 07:01 UTC

Modern day feminism:

Arkansas state senator asks trans-doctor if he has a penis - haha:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/F0f0vgsRSvA

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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 07:05 UTC

Basically Transgender-Ideology itself is misogynistic and all the idiots supporting this - such as Biden, Ray, Ellie etc etc.

*Bach's Johannes-Passion has some antisemitic moments I guess... but it's different from Wagner... sth completely different... it's also probably more anti-judaistic than anti-semitic (but sometimes this may go hand in hand I guess...)

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 07:06 UTC

WRT Dylan Mulvaney: The way he represents himself as a woman is the way misogynists view women...

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 08:22 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 09:02:01 UTC+2:
> Modern day feminism:
>
> Arkansas state senator asks trans-doctor if he has a penis - haha:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/F0f0vgsRSvA

I love how at the end of the vid another attendee - a true do-gooder and ribbon-bully, quite in the vain of people like Ray and Herman - comes up to defend this lunatic trans-doctor and says:

"Just because you have a penis does not mean you have honor or that you are a man"... guys... how much more idiotic and primitive can this get? And she honestly thinks that she is making a brave and valid statement with this....

Guys... if you have a penis... you are a man, not a woman; and such things as trans-women do not exist, they only exist in the deluded minds of people like Ellie Kerry and Biden and also Ray. People who believe themselves to have been born in the wrong body is a sign of insanity... (one should add that it's funny how many of these transgender-propagandists tell us that gender is a social construct (trying to differentiate between sex and gender) and don't even realize how they are discrediting themselves with such statements; because obviously if gender were a social construct, there would be no need for hormone-therapies or gender-affirming-surgeries... - they are right in a sense that society creates many false stereotypes about women and men, but this does not mean that you can choose your sex).

Some of these people - such as the trans-doctor - have been "educated" - or should I say rather brainwashed - in the philosophical, sociological and psychological departments of the universities... It's as if monkeys are teaching human sciences... and "nobody" - as seen on this very ng - seems to realize this; and there is only one explanation for this: The members of this ng are jsut as crazy and deluded themselves.

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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 08:30 UTC

One also has to realize, that many of these crazy transgender-people think of it as transphobic, that many men don't want to date a trans-woman like Ellie Kerry... well... that is obviously because Ellie Kerry and other Trans-women are not women. I have even seen trans-people accuse homosexuals of being transphobic, say a lesbian not wanting to date trans-women or a gay guy not wanting to date trans-men... well... isn't it fucking obvious why they won't?!

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 by: Andy Evans - Sun, 21 May 2023 08:58 UTC

There was a TV mini series about a woman conductor on Channel 4 Walter Presents in the UK, so the idea isn't unique.

The problem is that film makers aren't musicians and you have to be a musician to "get" how they think and behave. Mostly you just get a poor substitute that looks phoney from the start. Better to watch operas - there are some good filmed versions of those.

I just attempted to climb the North Face of "Wagner" on YT which is very long and lugubrious and panders to Richard Burton's characteristic on screen personality. Not one of my favourite actors. My wife loves him.

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 by: raymond....@gmail.co - Sun, 21 May 2023 14:13 UTC

On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 18:58:11 UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
> There was a TV mini series about a woman conductor on Channel 4 Walter Presents in the UK, so the idea isn't unique.
>
> The problem is that film makers aren't musicians and you have to be a musician to "get" how they think and behave. Mostly you just get a poor substitute that looks phoney from the start. Better to watch operas - there are some good filmed versions of those.
>
> I just attempted to climb the North Face of "Wagner" on YT which is very long and lugubrious and panders to Richard Burton's characteristic on screen personality. Not one of my favourite actors. My wife loves him.

It is his voice that is unique and praiseworthy, not his acting.

Ray Hall, Taree

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Sun, 21 May 2023 15:56 UTC

On 2023-05-21 06:58:10 +0000, Marc S said:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
>> *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't>
>> want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,>
>> cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>
>> people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>
>> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this>
>> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.>
> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which
> completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on
> Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom
> is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions
> here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at
> all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most
> antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of
> that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit
> antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he
> also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
>

Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but those of a
character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach to Wagner as far
as morality goes. There have been several discussions here as to
whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be
performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using
Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact, the
character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.

-Owen

P.S. If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that Trump asked him
for, they'd both be sitting in their executive offices right now
without any Russian invasion. :-)

-O

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 by: Marc S - Sun, 21 May 2023 16:51 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> >> *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't>
> >> want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,>
> >> cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>
> >> people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>
> >> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this>
> >> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.>
> > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which
> > completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on
> > Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom
> > is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions
> > here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at
> > all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most
> > antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of
> > that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit
> > antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he
> > also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> >
> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but those of a
> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach to Wagner as far
> as morality goes. There have been several discussions here as to

I was still half asleep when I wrote this and I didn't make my point clear enough I guess.

I understand that you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner (this is not the point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction of people that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny"; but this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't have any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming up with accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures the woke mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is similar to the way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want to block me - this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.

> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be
> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using
> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact, the
> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.
>
> -Owen
>
> P.S. If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that Trump asked him
> for, they'd both be sitting in their executive offices right now
> without any Russian invasion. :-)

Owen sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this statement... You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really wrong... and I'm not sure what would have gone differently then; the American leftist media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you are implying that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually think that it would have made a difference; I think there is a high chance that Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in office - not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good friends or we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to be kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz, Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.

WRT Zelensky and the democrats: He is doing everything to keep the Ukraine alive and I can't fault him for shaking hands with Biden, what do people expect? He is at war and needs every help imaginable. It is also understandable why Zelensky was sceptical of Trump; because Trump as very often is a bit full of himself and besides reality as seen here and probably Zelensky is also a bit brainwashed by leftist media; but I don't care for this... because... Ukraine is in trouble and Zelensky needs help and fighting the russian aggressors:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peRegQbtaxE

----

Sideinfo: Menachem Begin towards Biden in 1982:

"At the time, Biden was chastising Begin during a Senate hearing over Israel’s settlement policy in the West Bank, harshly threatening to cut off economic aid to the Jewish state if it did not immediately cease its settlement activities. Begin forcefully replied to Biden in words equally applicable today:

“Don’t threaten us with cutting off your aid. It will not work. I am not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid.”"

https://www.jns.org/opinion/i-am-not-a-jew-with-trembling-knees/

>
> -O

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 by: Pluted Pup - Mon, 22 May 2023 01:49 UTC

On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,
> > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
>
> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
>
> What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example...)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
>
> Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.

And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
We need antisemitism to defend ourselves.

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 05:45 UTC

Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white, th
> > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> >
> > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> >
> > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example...)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> >
> > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.

This insane notion is just a proof of you being an antisemite; and God knows that people like you would be an even bigger disaster for the USA (or the west) than the monkeys running the countries these days...

*one major characteristic of an antisemite is that he explains the world through the Jews- just as Hitler and the Germans did; and just like you and the Palestinians do today. And what did Hitler and the Germans achieve exactly? They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed Europe - they liberated themselves from humanity (just like you are doing). If the Germans had actually worked together with the German Jews we could have built up a beautiful country - now think about how this could apply to the USA (and how this did apply to the USA, because the American Jewry did alot for the USA as opposed to say the Islamic community in America - which btw is antisemitic as hell as well for the most part)...

> We need antisemitism to defend ourselves.

Well then you should be pro-Biden and anti-Trump, because Biden and the dems (see: Ilhan Omar and AOC for example) are much more antisemitic than the republicans; and the republicans actually did work hand in hand with Netanyahu and Israel - they had a similar vision wrt politics.

Every Jewish poll that I have seen wrt antisemitic incidents has islamic antisemitic incidents ranked at nr 1, and leftist antisemitic incidents ranked at nr 2; the right and the christians aren't the problem these days...

Trump was the first guy - and this was long overdue - to officially acknowledge that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and to move the embassy over there. The Germans - the descendants of the Nazis - who should have been the first to help Israel in this regard, did nothing but to demonize Trump and Netanyahu because of it and kiss the asses of Palestinian and Iranian antisemites.

Merkel and the Germans are much more responsible for the shit that is happening in the USA today; you know, similar to antisemites like Andy who are busy demonizing Israel and Trump, yet seeing nothing wrong with Transgender-Ideology or Islam.

You should defend yourself from the German Ideology (Marx)... that's what you should do... and that's also what the USA should do... Merkel strongly lobbied against Trump, while Netanyahu was very pro-Trump - how does this fit in your narrative you fool?

It's funny how you don't realize that you sound more like a muslim than like an american... move to Palestine Pluted and join the Palestinian Islamic Jihad if you are serious about wanting to outlaw antisemitism; don't be a hypocrite...

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 05:50 UTC

Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,
> > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> >
> > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> >
> > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example...)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> >
> > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
> We need antisemitism to defend ourselves.

Convert to islam, pray to Allah and join the Palestinian Islamic Jihad! These are antisemites defending antisemitism you could say... and don't forget to vote for Biden.

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 06:02 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 07:45:56 UTC+2:
> It's funny how you don't realize that you sound more like a muslim than like an american... move to Palestine Pluted and join the Palestinian Islamic Jihad if you are serious about wanting to outlaw antisemitism; don't be a hypocrite...

*serious about wanting to defend antisemitism

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 06:21 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 07:45:56 UTC+2:
> Merkel and the Germans are much more responsible for the shit that is happening in the USA today; you know, similar to antisemites like Andy who are busy demonizing Israel and Trump, yet seeing nothing wrong with Transgender-Ideology or Islam.

*Didn't want to imply that outlawing antisemitism is in any way responsible for what is happening in the USA today when saying "Merkel and the Germans are much more responsible for the shit that is happening in the USA today" - "much more" was wrong wording; it should have been "rather".

Actually I think if people had a better understanding of what antisemitism is and how it relates to capitalism things would be way better.

And as I said: The German politicians and media lobbied against Trump, while Israel, Netanyahu and the right-wing media was pro-Trump. The Jews in Israel largely voted for a government that is rightwing and also pro-Trump; so the point I'm trying to get accross Pluted is the following: That the Jews of Israel are politically more on your side than the Merkel- and Scholz-Germans...

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Mon, 22 May 2023 13:58 UTC

On 2023-05-21 16:51:29 +0000, Marc S said:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:
>> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
>> Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:> >> *There is an interesting
>> scene which results from someone who didn't>> >> want to play the music
>> of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,>> >> cis, and a
>> misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>> >> people
>> not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>> >>
>> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this>>
>> >> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.>> >
>> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which>
>> > completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war
>> on> > Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the
>> comparisom> > is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back
>> to discussions> > here about people not wanting to hear the music of
>> Wagner... not at> > all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more
>> so than most> > antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach
>> didn't do any of> > that (you could maybe argue that the
>> Johannes-Passion is a bit> > antisemitic, but this is a totally
>> different case from Wagner)... he> > also didn't hate on women... he
>> was just a man of his time...> >
>> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but those of a>
>> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach to Wagner as far>
>> as morality goes. There have been several discussions here as to
> I was still half asleep when I wrote this and I didn't make my point
> clear enough I guess.
>
> I understand that you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner
> (this is not the point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction
> of people that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny";
> but this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's
> personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't have
> any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming up with
> accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures the woke
> mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is similar to the
> way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want to block me -
> this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.

I can make any comparisons I want -- valid or not.
>
>> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be>
>> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using>
>> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact, the>
>> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.>> -Owen>> P.S.
>> If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that Trump asked him> for,
>> they'd both be sitting in their executive offices right now> without
>> any Russian invasion. :-)
> Owen sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this
> statement... You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really
> wrong... and I'm not sure what would have gone differently then; the
> American leftist media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you
> are implying that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually
> think that it would have made a difference; I think there is a high
> chance that Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in
> office - not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good
> friends or we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to
> be kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz,
> Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are
> ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians
> annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.

So you came to the same conclusion I did.

Blame on Zelenskyy? No. Biden's self-admitted extorted government
changes to Ukraine helped put Zelenskyy in office. I'm sure Zelenskyy
was doing what was best for himself. But if he had decided to throw
Biden under the bus, as we can see from Hunter's shenanigans, there was
a lot of dirt there. Probably enough to throw the election to Trump,
and if the proof came from another world leader, and not Trump, it
would be hard to squash. There would be no (serious) talk of Ukraine
joining NATO, and if there were, Trump would have squashed it instead
of encouraged it. Even Trump has stated there would be no war had he
remained President, and there certainly would have been no sabre
rattling, nor talk of "Regime Change" by the President. Biden has
bungled us into another proxy war.

-Owen

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 15:40 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 16:00:48 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-21 16:51:29 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:
> >> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
> >> Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:> >> *There is an interesting
> >> scene which results from someone who didn't>> >> want to play the music
> >> of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,>> >> cis, and a
> >> misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>> >> people
> >> not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>> >>
> >> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this>>
> >> >> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.>> >
> >> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which>
> >> > completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war
> >> on> > Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the
> >> comparisom> > is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back
> >> to discussions> > here about people not wanting to hear the music of
> >> Wagner... not at> > all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more
> >> so than most> > antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach
> >> didn't do any of> > that (you could maybe argue that the
> >> Johannes-Passion is a bit> > antisemitic, but this is a totally
> >> different case from Wagner)... he> > also didn't hate on women... he
> >> was just a man of his time...> >
> >> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but those of a>
> >> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach to Wagner as far>
> >> as morality goes. There have been several discussions here as to
> > I was still half asleep when I wrote this and I didn't make my point
> > clear enough I guess.
> >
> > I understand that you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner
> > (this is not the point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction
> > of people that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny";
> > but this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's
> > personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't have
> > any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming up with
> > accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures the woke
> > mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is similar to the
> > way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want to block me -
> > this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.
> I can make any comparisons I want -- valid or not.
> >
> >> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be>
> >> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using>
> >> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact, the>
> >> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.>> -Owen>> P.S.
> >> If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that Trump asked him> for,
> >> they'd both be sitting in their executive offices right now> without
> >> any Russian invasion. :-)
> > Owen sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this
> > statement... You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really
> > wrong... and I'm not sure what would have gone differently then; the
> > American leftist media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you
> > are implying that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually
> > think that it would have made a difference; I think there is a high
> > chance that Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in
> > office - not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good
> > friends or we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to
> > be kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz,
> > Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are
> > ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians
> > annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.
> So you came to the same conclusion I did.
>
> Blame on Zelenskyy? No. Biden's self-admitted extorted government
> changes to Ukraine helped put Zelenskyy in office. I'm sure Zelenskyy
> was doing what was best for himself. But if he had decided to throw
> Biden under the bus, as we can see from Hunter's shenanigans, there was
> a lot of dirt there. Probably enough to throw the election to Trump,
> and if the proof came from another world leader, and not Trump, it
> would be hard to squash. There would be no (serious) talk of Ukraine
> joining NATO, and if there were, Trump would have squashed it instead
> of encouraged it. Even Trump has stated there would be no war had he
> remained President, and there certainly would have been no sabre
> rattling, nor talk of "Regime Change" by the President. Biden has
> bungled us into another proxy war.
>
> -Owen

There should be serious talk of the Ukraine joining the NATO because the Ukrainians want it - plain and simple. It is their right.

That you want Trump to have squashed it just shows what a small-minded shithead you are; completely careless about the lives of others. But we had this discussion before. Go jerk off to Trump you fucking monkey.

And whatever you or Putin thinks: the Ukrainians don't care. And fortunately most of the USA and Europe doesn't either; even though I think they still don't care enough.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 15:48 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 16:00:48 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-21 16:51:29 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:
> >> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
> >> Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:> >> *There is an interesting
> >> scene which results from someone who didn't>> >> want to play the music
> >> of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,>> >> cis, and a
> >> misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>> >> people
> >> not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>> >>
> >> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this>>
> >> >> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.>> >
> >> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which>
> >> > completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war
> >> on> > Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the
> >> comparisom> > is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back
> >> to discussions> > here about people not wanting to hear the music of
> >> Wagner... not at> > all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more
> >> so than most> > antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach
> >> didn't do any of> > that (you could maybe argue that the
> >> Johannes-Passion is a bit> > antisemitic, but this is a totally
> >> different case from Wagner)... he> > also didn't hate on women... he
> >> was just a man of his time...> >
> >> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but those of a>
> >> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach to Wagner as far>
> >> as morality goes. There have been several discussions here as to
> > I was still half asleep when I wrote this and I didn't make my point
> > clear enough I guess.
> >
> > I understand that you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner
> > (this is not the point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction
> > of people that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny";
> > but this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's
> > personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't have
> > any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming up with
> > accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures the woke
> > mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is similar to the
> > way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want to block me -
> > this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.
> I can make any comparisons I want -- valid or not.
> >
> >> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be>
> >> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using>
> >> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact, the>
> >> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.>> -Owen>> P.S..
> >> If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that Trump asked him> for,
> >> they'd both be sitting in their executive offices right now> without
> >> any Russian invasion. :-)
> > Owen sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this
> > statement... You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really
> > wrong... and I'm not sure what would have gone differently then; the
> > American leftist media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you
> > are implying that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually
> > think that it would have made a difference; I think there is a high
> > chance that Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in
> > office - not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good
> > friends or we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to
> > be kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz,
> > Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are
> > ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians
> > annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.
> So you came to the same conclusion I did.
>
> Blame on Zelenskyy? No. Biden's self-admitted extorted government
> changes to Ukraine helped put Zelenskyy in office. I'm sure Zelenskyy
> was doing what was best for himself. But if he had decided to throw
> Biden under the bus, as we can see from Hunter's shenanigans, there was
> a lot of dirt there. Probably enough to throw the election to Trump,
> and if the proof came from another world leader, and not Trump, it
> would be hard to squash. There would be no (serious) talk of Ukraine
> joining NATO, and if there were, Trump would have squashed it instead
> of encouraged it. Even Trump has stated there would be no war had he
> remained President, and there certainly would have been no sabre
> rattling, nor talk of "Regime Change" by the President. Biden has
> bungled us into another proxy war.
>
> -Owen

You seem to have trouble assessing reality and putting yourself into other's shoes... people are dying in the Ukraine because of Putin, and you fantasize about Trump being a saviour... these are just hypotheses... if Trump didn't behave like a monkey as he did most of the times, he maybe would be still in office... ain't got anything to do with Zelensky you fool... if the Americans wouldn't have let themselves be brainwashed by leftist media, maybe Trump would still be in office... (and being brainwashed by rightwing media - which is the case with you Owen - doesn't help either)

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Alex Brown - Mon, 22 May 2023 16:24 UTC

On 21/05/2023 06:23, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> "Tár" is a movie starring Cate Blanchett about a woman conductor of the
> Berlin Philharmonic. They attempt to play some Mahler but never quite
> get around to it, never mind the Elgar.
>
> A few random thoughts about the movie:
>
> * The first seven minutes or so are the credits that generally appear at
> the end.  You can fast forward them because there are still the credits
> you'd care about at the end anyway.
>
> * The whole first hour is horribly boring.  I did turn off the dvd
> player at this point, and decided it wasn't worth it, but I woke up the
> next day and decided to tough it out.  I'm glad I did because that
> segment actually held my interest and was completely taken by surprise
> by a most remarkable display of flight by Ms. Blanchett.
>
> *Either Cate Blanchett horribly acted in this role, or she tried to be
> the conductor that every orchestra member hates.  Or both. Lots of "I'm
> going to explain to you what this music really means" stuff. Cate,
> you're no Leonard Bernstein. Nor even a Berenstein Bear.
>
> *It's unclear what purpose this movie has, because it tends to go off in
> new directions as it progresses, but it probably will give you insight
> as to what James Levine's last years were probably like.
>
> *For a movie about a conductor, there's very little music in it.
>
> * Besides the lofty pronouncements about what music should do to you
> when you hear it, there are a few music lore anecdotes thrown in that
> everyone here has heard already, such as Lully killing himself with his
> own baton, etc.
>
> * Nominated for Best Picture, Deservedly didn't deserve it.
>
> *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,
> cis, and a misogynist.  It does harken back to discussions here about
> people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
>
> *The music (what there is of it) seems performed live and with real
> orchestral people and Sophie Kauer is a remarkable cellist, from what we
> can hear from her.
>
> -Owen
>

I was intrigued by the investment bakner Eliot Kaplan wanting to worm
his way into conducting - presumably a reference to Gilbert Kaplan?

- Alex.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Mon, 22 May 2023 19:15 UTC

On 2023-05-22 15:40:19 +0000, Marc S said:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 16:00:48 UTC+2:
>> On 2023-05-21 16:51:29 +0000, Marc S said:
>>
>>> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:
>>>> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
>>>> Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:> >> *There is an interesting
>>>> scene which results from someone who didn't>> >> want to play the music
>>>> of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,>> >> cis, and a
>>>> misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>> >> people
>>>> not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>> >>
>>>> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this>>
>>>>>> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.>> >
>>>> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which>
>>>>> completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war
>>>> on> > Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the
>>>> comparisom> > is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back
>>>> to discussions> > here about people not wanting to hear the music of
>>>> Wagner... not at> > all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more
>>>> so than most> > antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach
>>>> didn't do any of> > that (you could maybe argue that the
>>>> Johannes-Passion is a bit> > antisemitic, but this is a totally
>>>> different case from Wagner)... he> > also didn't hate on women... he
>>>> was just a man of his time...> >
>>>> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but those of a>
>>>> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach to Wagner as far>
>>>> as morality goes. There have been several discussions here as to
>>> I was still half asleep when I wrote this and I didn't make my point
>>> clear enough I guess.
>>>
>>> I understand that you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner
>>> (this is not the point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction
>>> of people that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny";
>>> but this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's
>>> personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't have
>>> any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming up with
>>> accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures the woke
>>> mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is similar to the
>>> way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want to block me -
>>> this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.
>> I can make any comparisons I want -- valid or not.
>>>
>>>> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be>
>>>> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using>
>>>> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact, the>
>>>> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.>> -Owen>> P.S.
>>>> If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that Trump asked him> for,
>>>> they'd both be sitting in their executive offices right now> without
>>>> any Russian invasion. :-)
>>> Owen sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this
>>> statement... You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really
>>> wrong... and I'm not sure what would have gone differently then; the
>>> American leftist media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you
>>> are implying that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually
>>> think that it would have made a difference; I think there is a high
>>> chance that Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in
>>> office - not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good
>>> friends or we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to
>>> be kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz,
>>> Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are
>>> ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians
>>> annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.
>> So you came to the same conclusion I did.
>>
>> Blame on Zelenskyy? No. Biden's self-admitted extorted government
>> changes to Ukraine helped put Zelenskyy in office. I'm sure Zelenskyy
>> was doing what was best for himself. But if he had decided to throw
>> Biden under the bus, as we can see from Hunter's shenanigans, there was
>> a lot of dirt there. Probably enough to throw the election to Trump,
>> and if the proof came from another world leader, and not Trump, it
>> would be hard to squash. There would be no (serious) talk of Ukraine
>> joining NATO, and if there were, Trump would have squashed it instead
>> of encouraged it. Even Trump has stated there would be no war had he
>> remained President, and there certainly would have been no sabre
>> rattling, nor talk of "Regime Change" by the President. Biden has
>> bungled us into another proxy war.
>>
>> -Owen
>
> There should be serious talk of the Ukraine joining the NATO because
> the Ukrainians want it - plain and simple. It is their right.

No country has the "right" to join NATO. Talk is cheap, except when
the POTUS makes it, then rival countries take him seriously.
>
> That you want Trump to have squashed it just shows what a small-minded
> shithead you are; completely careless about the lives of others. But we
> had this discussion before. Go jerk off to Trump you fucking monkey.

Careless about the lives of others? You're the one who wants this war.
You love this war! I'd rather have no war. Wait until the body and/or
dollar count gets high enough and see how much support you'd have.

Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?
>
> And whatever you or Putin thinks: the Ukrainians don't care. And
> fortunately most of the USA and Europe doesn't either; even though I
> think they still don't care enough.

Maybe you should enlist if you care that deeply. If they're willing to
die for a cause that you support, shouldn't you also be willing?

-Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Mon, 22 May 2023 19:17 UTC

On 2023-05-22 15:48:59 +0000, Marc S said:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 16:00:48 UTC+2:
>> On 2023-05-21 16:51:29 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
>> Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:> >> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10
>> +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am> >> Sonntag, 21. Mai
>> 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:> >> *There is an interesting> >> scene which
>> results from someone who didn't>> >> want to play the music> >> of a
>> composer (Bach), because he was a white,>> >> cis, and a> >>
>> misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>> >> people>
>> >> not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>>
>> >>> >> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that
>> this>>> >> >> movie would provide a resolution to this question,
>> though.>> >> >> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic
>> assessment - which>> >> > completely neglected the wishes of the
>> Ukrainians - of Russia's war> >> on> > Ukraine proved) you really need
>> to understand how wrong the> >> comparisom> > is you are making... No,
>> in no way does this harken back> >> to discussions> > here about people
>> not wanting to hear the music of> >> Wagner... not at> > all... Wagner
>> was a virulent antisemite, much more> >> so than most> > antisemites of
>> his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach> >> didn't do any of> > that
>> (you could maybe argue that the> >> Johannes-Passion is a bit> >
>> antisemitic, but this is a totally> >> different case from Wagner)...
>> he> > also didn't hate on women... he> >> was just a man of his
>> time...> >> >> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but
>> those of a>> >> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach
>> to Wagner as far>> >> as morality goes. There have been several
>> discussions here as to> > I was still half asleep when I wrote this and
>> I didn't make my point> > clear enough I guess.> >> > I understand that
>> you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner> > (this is not the
>> point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction> > of people
>> that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny";> > but
>> this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's> >
>> personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't
>> have> > any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming
>> up with> > accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures
>> the woke> > mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is
>> similar to the> > way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want
>> to block me -> > this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.
>> I can make any comparisons I want -- valid or not.
>>>
>>>> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be>> >>
>>>> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using>>
>>>> >> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact,
>>>> the>> >> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.>>
>>>> -Owen>> P.S.> >> If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that
>>>> Trump asked him> for,> >> they'd both be sitting in their executive
>>>> offices right now> without> >> any Russian invasion. :-)> > Owen
>>>> sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this> > statement...
>>>> You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really> > wrong... and I'm
>>>> not sure what would have gone differently then; the> > American leftist
>>>> media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you> > are implying
>>>> that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually> > think that
>>>> it would have made a difference; I think there is a high> > chance that
>>>> Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in> > office -
>>>> not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good> > friends or
>>>> we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to> > be
>>>> kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz,> >
>>>> Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are> >
>>>> ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians> >
>>>> annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.
>> So you came to the same conclusion I did.>> Blame on Zelenskyy? No.
>> Biden's self-admitted extorted government> changes to Ukraine helped
>> put Zelenskyy in office. I'm sure Zelenskyy> was doing what was best
>> for himself. But if he had decided to throw> Biden under the bus, as we
>> can see from Hunter's shenanigans, there was> a lot of dirt there.
>> Probably enough to throw the election to Trump,> and if the proof came
>> from another world leader, and not Trump, it> would be hard to squash.
>> There would be no (serious) talk of Ukraine> joining NATO, and if there
>> were, Trump would have squashed it instead> of encouraged it. Even
>> Trump has stated there would be no war had he> remained President, and
>> there certainly would have been no sabre> rattling, nor talk of "Regime
>> Change" by the President. Biden has> bungled us into another proxy
>> war.>> -Owen
>
> You seem to have trouble assessing reality and putting yourself into
> other's shoes... people are dying in the Ukraine because of Putin, and
> you fantasize about Trump being a saviour... these are just
> hypotheses... if Trump didn't behave like a monkey as he did most of
> the times, he maybe would be still in office... ain't got anything to
> do with Zelensky you fool... if the Americans wouldn't have let
> themselves be brainwashed by leftist media, maybe Trump would still be
> in office... (and being brainwashed by rightwing media - which is the
> case with you Owen - doesn't help either)

You really have trouble making a point without lapsing into ad hominem.
I suppose that means you lose the argument.

-Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 19:27 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:15:43 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-22 15:40:19 +0000, Marc S said:
> > There should be serious talk of the Ukraine joining the NATO because
> > the Ukrainians want it - plain and simple. It is their right.
> No country has the "right" to join NATO. Talk is cheap, except when
> the POTUS makes it, then rival countries take him seriously.

Look, just as you are allowed to make idiotic comparisons and not be aware of it, the Ukrainian people are allowed to express their wish to join the NATO - whichofc is not an idiotic move if you understood their situation.

> >
> > That you want Trump to have squashed it just shows what a small-minded
> > shithead you are; completely careless about the lives of others. But we
> > had this discussion before. Go jerk off to Trump you fucking monkey.
> Careless about the lives of others? You're the one who wants this war.
> You love this war! I'd rather have no war. Wait until the body and/or
> dollar count gets high enough and see how much support you'd have.

"Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God" was a motto suggested, but not used, for the Seal of the United States. Jefferson eventually appropriated it for his own seal. The source of the motto as used by Jefferson is likely Benjamin Franklin.

>
> Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?

Seriosuly serious: I am no prophet.

I would actually also have to read up more about it again. But as it seems, it's like a back and forth these days; I do ofc hope that Ukraine will regain the whole country back - including Sevastopol and Crimea.

> >
> > And whatever you or Putin thinks: the Ukrainians don't care. And
> > fortunately most of the USA and Europe doesn't either; even though I
> > think they still don't care enough.
> Maybe you should enlist if you care that deeply. If they're willing to
> die for a cause that you support, shouldn't you also be willing?

It is not my job as a citizen, but a the job of the European militaries to take more action. The Ukrainians are actually thankful for donations (be it in militaristic or monetary or we means) already - they don't even ask you to fight for them, but to give them weapons. Very civilised as opposed to you. You don't value freedom.

>
> -Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 19:34 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:17:34 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-22 15:48:59 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 16:00:48 UTC+2:
> >> On 2023-05-21 16:51:29 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
> >> Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 17:58:08 UTC+2:> >> On 2023-05-21 06:58:10
> >> +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am> >> Sonntag, 21. Mai
> >> 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:> >> *There is an interesting> >> scene which
> >> results from someone who didn't>> >> want to play the music> >> of a
> >> composer (Bach), because he was a white,>> >> cis, and a> >>
> >> misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about>> >> people>
> >> >> not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers>>
> >> >>> >> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that
> >> this>>> >> >> movie would provide a resolution to this question,
> >> though.>> >> >> Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic
> >> assessment - which>> >> > completely neglected the wishes of the
> >> Ukrainians - of Russia's war> >> on> > Ukraine proved) you really need
> >> to understand how wrong the> >> comparisom> > is you are making... No,
> >> in no way does this harken back> >> to discussions> > here about people
> >> not wanting to hear the music of> >> Wagner... not at> > all... Wagner
> >> was a virulent antisemite, much more> >> so than most> > antisemites of
> >> his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach> >> didn't do any of> > that
> >> (you could maybe argue that the> >> Johannes-Passion is a bit> >
> >> antisemitic, but this is a totally> >> different case from Wagner)...
> >> he> > also didn't hate on women... he> >> was just a man of his
> >> time...> >> >> Re: claims about Bach -- they were not my claims, but
> >> those of a>> >> character in the movie. Nor do I mean to compare Bach
> >> to Wagner as far>> >> as morality goes. There have been several
> >> discussions here as to> > I was still half asleep when I wrote this and
> >> I didn't make my point> > clear enough I guess.> >> > I understand that
> >> you didn't compare the morality of Bach and Wagner> > (this is not the
> >> point I was trying to make), you compared the reaction> > of people
> >> that learned of Wagner's antisemitism and Bach's "misogyny";> > but
> >> this is not a valid comparison, as the people wrt Wagner's> >
> >> personality actually have a point, while the people wrt Bach don't
> >> have> > any... hating on Bach because he was white and male and coming
> >> up with> > accusations of misogyny is crazy; it just perfectly captures
> >> the woke> > mentality of today. The way this person cancels Bach is
> >> similar to the> > way Herman cancels this ng, or how Andy and Henk want
> >> to block me -> > this is a valid comparison; not the one you are making.
> >> I can make any comparisons I want -- valid or not.
> >>>
> >>>> whether music composed by people with odious backgrounds should be>> >>
> >>>> performed, and the film basically echoed those discussions, but using>>
> >>>> >> Bach as an example, instead of, say, Wagner. As a matter of fact,
> >>>> the>> >> character pretty much denounced all white cis composers.>>
> >>>> -Owen>> P.S.> >> If Zelenskyy had sent that dirt on Joe Biden that
> >>>> Trump asked him> for,> >> they'd both be sitting in their executive
> >>>> offices right now> without> >> any Russian invasion. :-)> > Owen
> >>>> sorry... but I don't really know what to say about this> > statement...
> >>>> You are casting blame on Zelenskyy - this is really> > wrong... and I'm
> >>>> not sure what would have gone differently then; the> > American leftist
> >>>> media would have suppressed the info anyway.. if you> > are implying
> >>>> that Trump would have been reelected... yes, I actually> > think that
> >>>> it would have made a difference; I think there is a high> > chance that
> >>>> Putin would not have invaded the Ukraine if Trump were in> > office -
> >>>> not because Trump is a strategic genius or they are good> > friends or
> >>>> we, but because Trump and the Republicans were not people to> > be
> >>>> kidding with. In the eyes of Xi and Putin etc... people like Scholz,> >
> >>>> Biden, Trudeau etc oppose no danger... they also see how they are> >
> >>>> ruining the west. One also has to keep in mind that the Russians> >
> >>>> annected crimea and sevastopol when Obama was in office.
> >> So you came to the same conclusion I did.>> Blame on Zelenskyy? No.
> >> Biden's self-admitted extorted government> changes to Ukraine helped
> >> put Zelenskyy in office. I'm sure Zelenskyy> was doing what was best
> >> for himself. But if he had decided to throw> Biden under the bus, as we
> >> can see from Hunter's shenanigans, there was> a lot of dirt there.
> >> Probably enough to throw the election to Trump,> and if the proof came
> >> from another world leader, and not Trump, it> would be hard to squash.
> >> There would be no (serious) talk of Ukraine> joining NATO, and if there
> >> were, Trump would have squashed it instead> of encouraged it. Even
> >> Trump has stated there would be no war had he> remained President, and
> >> there certainly would have been no sabre> rattling, nor talk of "Regime
> >> Change" by the President. Biden has> bungled us into another proxy
> >> war.>> -Owen
> >
> > You seem to have trouble assessing reality and putting yourself into
> > other's shoes... people are dying in the Ukraine because of Putin, and
> > you fantasize about Trump being a saviour... these are just
> > hypotheses... if Trump didn't behave like a monkey as he did most of
> > the times, he maybe would be still in office... ain't got anything to
> > do with Zelensky you fool... if the Americans wouldn't have let
> > themselves be brainwashed by leftist media, maybe Trump would still be
> > in office... (and being brainwashed by rightwing media - which is the
> > case with you Owen - doesn't help either)
> You really have trouble making a point without lapsing into ad hominem.
> I suppose that means you lose the argument.

You go on living in your fantasy world. There is no place for discussion left with you. I gave you quite a few reasonable arguments already in our last discussion which you already seem to have forgotten.

For example: The war helps wreck Russia's economy (for very little expense), this is good for the west, and the west could gain a lot out of this war if they were thinking a bit more strategically...

The thing is that I am for war when it means fighting for freedom; which is what is happening in Ukraine (against the Russian Tyranny).

>
> -Owen

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