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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

SubjectAuthor
* Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewAndrew Clarke
|+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|||`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||| `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewAndy Evans
|||  `- Re: Tar -- the Movie Reviewraymond....@gmail.com
||`- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|`- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|+* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|| `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  | +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  | | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |  +- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |  +- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | |  `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |  `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  |   +- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |   `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewFrank Berger
||  |    +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMatthew Silverstein
||  |    |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewFrank Berger
||  |    | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMatthew Silverstein
||  |    |  `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |    |   `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  |    `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||  |     `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewFrank Berger
||  |      `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||  `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
||   `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett
||    `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
|`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewPluted Pup
| +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |+- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |+- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewPluted Pup
| | `* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |  +* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |  |`- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| |  `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
| `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewMarc S
`* Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewAlex Brown
 `- Re: Tar -- the Movie ReviewOwen Hartnett

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Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 19:36 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:15:43 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-22 15:40:19 +0000, Marc S said:
> > There should be serious talk of the Ukraine joining the NATO because
> > the Ukrainians want it - plain and simple. It is their right.
> No country has the "right" to join NATO. Talk is cheap, except when
> the POTUS makes it, then rival countries take him seriously.
> >
> > That you want Trump to have squashed it just shows what a small-minded
> > shithead you are; completely careless about the lives of others. But we
> > had this discussion before. Go jerk off to Trump you fucking monkey.
> Careless about the lives of others? You're the one who wants this war.
> You love this war! I'd rather have no war. Wait until the body and/or
> dollar count gets high enough and see how much support you'd have.
>
> Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?
> >
> > And whatever you or Putin thinks: the Ukrainians don't care. And
> > fortunately most of the USA and Europe doesn't either; even though I
> > think they still don't care enough.
> Maybe you should enlist if you care that deeply. If they're willing to
> die for a cause that you support, shouldn't you also be willing?
>
> -Owen

Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Pluted Pup - Mon, 22 May 2023 20:26 UTC

On Sun, 21 May 2023 22:45:53 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> > On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white, th
> > > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> > >
> > > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> > >
> > > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example...)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> > >
> > > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> > And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
>
> This insane notion is just a proof of you being an antisemite; and God knows that people like you would be an even bigger disaster for the USA (or the west) than the monkeys running the countries these days...
>
> *one major characteristic of an antisemite is that he explains the world through the Jews- just as Hitler and the Germans did; and just like you and the Palestinians do today. And what did Hitler and the Germans achieve exactly? They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed Europe - they liberated themselves from humanity (just like you are doing). If the Germans had actually worked together with the German Jews we could have built up a beautiful country - now think about how this could apply to the USA (and how this did apply to the USA, because the American Jewry did alot for the USA as opposed to say the Islamic community in America - which btw is antisemitic as hell as well for the most part)...

There you go again, you say "antisemitism is murder"! That's
all you Jews ever say.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 20:49 UTC

Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:29:32 UTC+2:
> On Sun, 21 May 2023 22:45:53 -0700, Marc S wrote:
>
> > Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> > > On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white, th
> > > > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> > > >
> > > > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> > > >
> > > > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example...).... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> > > >
> > > > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> > > And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
> >
> > This insane notion is just a proof of you being an antisemite; and God knows that people like you would be an even bigger disaster for the USA (or the west) than the monkeys running the countries these days...
> >
> > *one major characteristic of an antisemite is that he explains the world through the Jews- just as Hitler and the Germans did; and just like you and the Palestinians do today. And what did Hitler and the Germans achieve exactly? They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed Europe - they liberated themselves from humanity (just like you are doing). If the Germans had actually worked together with the German Jews we could have built up a beautiful country - now think about how this could apply to the USA (and how this did apply to the USA, because the American Jewry did alot for the USA as opposed to say the Islamic community in America - which btw is antisemitic as hell as well for the most part)...
> There you go again, you say "antisemitism is murder"! That's
> all you Jews ever say.

Hehe, as I already said: Talking to an antisemite is like teaching a monkey how to speak.

Look you monkey, I tried to reason with you... my fault, I should have known how this would go... have fun rotting in hell!

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 20:51 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:49:18 UTC+2:
> Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:29:32 UTC+2:
> > On Sun, 21 May 2023 22:45:53 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > > Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> > > > On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > > > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > > > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white, th
> > > > > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > > > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > > > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > > > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> > > > >
> > > > > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example....)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> > > > And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
> > >
> > > This insane notion is just a proof of you being an antisemite; and God knows that people like you would be an even bigger disaster for the USA (or the west) than the monkeys running the countries these days...
> > >
> > > *one major characteristic of an antisemite is that he explains the world through the Jews- just as Hitler and the Germans did; and just like you and the Palestinians do today. And what did Hitler and the Germans achieve exactly? They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed Europe - they liberated themselves from humanity (just like you are doing). If the Germans had actually worked together with the German Jews we could have built up a beautiful country - now think about how this could apply to the USA (and how this did apply to the USA, because the American Jewry did alot for the USA as opposed to say the Islamic community in America - which btw is antisemitic as hell as well for the most part)...
> > There you go again, you say "antisemitism is murder"! That's
> > all you Jews ever say.
> Hehe, as I already said: Talking to an antisemite is like teaching a monkey how to speak.
>
> Look you monkey, I tried to reason with you... my fault, I should have known how this would go... have fun rotting in hell!

*actually I thought of knew how this would go, but wrote it anyway... for others to read, as well as for you ofc to wake up. Unfortunately, or maybe in your case rather fortunately that won't happen.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 20:57 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:51:23 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:49:18 UTC+2:
> > Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:29:32 UTC+2:
> > > On Sun, 21 May 2023 22:45:53 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > >
> > > > Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > > > > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white, th
> > > > > > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > > > > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > > > > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > > > > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example....)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> > > > > And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
> > > >
> > > > This insane notion is just a proof of you being an antisemite; and God knows that people like you would be an even bigger disaster for the USA (or the west) than the monkeys running the countries these days...
> > > >
> > > > *one major characteristic of an antisemite is that he explains the world through the Jews- just as Hitler and the Germans did; and just like you and the Palestinians do today. And what did Hitler and the Germans achieve exactly? They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed Europe - they liberated themselves from humanity (just like you are doing). If the Germans had actually worked together with the German Jews we could have built up a beautiful country - now think about how this could apply to the USA (and how this did apply to the USA, because the American Jewry did alot for the USA as opposed to say the Islamic community in America - which btw is antisemitic as hell as well for the most part)...
> > > There you go again, you say "antisemitism is murder"! That's
> > > all you Jews ever say.
> > Hehe, as I already said: Talking to an antisemite is like teaching a monkey how to speak.
> >
> > Look you monkey, I tried to reason with you... my fault, I should have known how this would go... have fun rotting in hell!
> *actually I thought of knew how this would go, but wrote it anyway... for others to read, as well as for you ofc to wake up. Unfortunately, or maybe in your case rather fortunately that won't happen.

*sort of

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 by: Marc S - Mon, 22 May 2023 21:47 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:49:18 UTC+2:
> Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 22:29:32 UTC+2:
> > On Sun, 21 May 2023 22:45:53 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > > Pluted Pup schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 03:50:17 UTC+2:
> > > > On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:58:10 -0700, Marc S wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 21. Mai 2023 um 07:23:47 UTC+2:
> > > > > > *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
> > > > > > want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white, th
> > > > > > cis, and a misogynist. It does harken back to discussions here about
> > > > > > people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
> > > > > > who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
> > > > > > movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Haven't seen the movie... but Owen (as your idiotic assessment - which completely neglected the wishes of the Ukrainians - of Russia's war on Ukraine proved) you really need to understand how wrong the comparisom is you are making... No, in no way does this harken back to discussions here about people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner... not at all... Wagner was a virulent antisemite, much more so than most antisemites of his time, he spread hatred etc... Bach didn't do any of that (you could maybe argue that the Johannes-Passion is a bit antisemitic, but this is a totally different case from Wagner)... he also didn't hate on women... he was just a man of his time...
> > > > >
> > > > > What this does show again is how screwed the people of today view the world - Bach a misogynist, yet no words about the misogyny of the Transgender-Ideology: I would say that Biden is a misogynist (much more so than Trump; Trump is not a fan of mutiliating the bodies of women for example....)... I would say that all the doctors that cut off the tits of girls and women are misogynist; and I would even say that Ray who supports such crazy practices is misogynist. I would say it is misogynist of Ellie Kerry wantign to be perceived as a woman (he is envious of real women), wanting to share spaces with women etc... This is misogyny, but since Ellie only cares about his own desires he will shit on women.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or: Dylan Mulvaney is misogynistic as well... and Biden welcomed and supported him. Dylan Mulvanyey is making a charicature of women, a mockery of women. Nothing about Dylan Mulvaney is feminine.
> > > > And all this is a result of outlawing antisemitism.
> > >
> > > This insane notion is just a proof of you being an antisemite; and God knows that people like you would be an even bigger disaster for the USA (or the west) than the monkeys running the countries these days...
> > >
> > > *one major characteristic of an antisemite is that he explains the world through the Jews- just as Hitler and the Germans did; and just like you and the Palestinians do today. And what did Hitler and the Germans achieve exactly? They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed Europe - they liberated themselves from humanity (just like you are doing). If the Germans had actually worked together with the German Jews we could have built up a beautiful country - now think about how this could apply to the USA (and how this did apply to the USA, because the American Jewry did alot for the USA as opposed to say the Islamic community in America - which btw is antisemitic as hell as well for the most part)...
> > There you go again, you say "antisemitism is murder"! That's
> > all you Jews ever say.
> Hehe, as I already said: Talking to an antisemite is like teaching a monkey how to speak.
>
> Look you monkey, I tried to reason with you... my fault, I should have known how this would go... have fun rotting in hell!

*burning

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Tue, 23 May 2023 03:07 UTC

On 2023-05-22 16:24:19 +0000, Alex Brown said:

> On 21/05/2023 06:23, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> "Tár" is a movie starring Cate Blanchett about a woman conductor of the
>> Berlin Philharmonic. They attempt to play some Mahler but never quite
>> get around to it, never mind the Elgar.
>>
>> A few random thoughts about the movie:
>>
>> * The first seven minutes or so are the credits that generally appear
>> at the end.  You can fast forward them because there are still the
>> credits you'd care about at the end anyway.
>>
>> * The whole first hour is horribly boring.  I did turn off the dvd
>> player at this point, and decided it wasn't worth it, but I woke up the
>> next day and decided to tough it out.  I'm glad I did because that
>> segment actually held my interest and was completely taken by surprise
>> by a most remarkable display of flight by Ms. Blanchett.
>>
>> *Either Cate Blanchett horribly acted in this role, or she tried to be
>> the conductor that every orchestra member hates.  Or both. Lots of "I'm
>> going to explain to you what this music really means" stuff. Cate,
>> you're no Leonard Bernstein. Nor even a Berenstein Bear.
>>
>> *It's unclear what purpose this movie has, because it tends to go off
>> in new directions as it progresses, but it probably will give you
>> insight as to what James Levine's last years were probably like.
>>
>> *For a movie about a conductor, there's very little music in it.
>>
>> * Besides the lofty pronouncements about what music should do to you
>> when you hear it, there are a few music lore anecdotes thrown in that
>> everyone here has heard already, such as Lully killing himself with his
>> own baton, etc.
>>
>> * Nominated for Best Picture, Deservedly didn't deserve it.
>>
>> *There is an interesting scene which results from someone who didn't
>> want to play the music of a composer (Bach), because he was a white,
>> cis, and a misogynist.  It does harken back to discussions here about
>> people not wanting to hear the music of Wagner, nor of other composers
>> who had significant moral, racist or antisemitic flaws. Not that this
>> movie would provide a resolution to this question, though.
>>
>> *The music (what there is of it) seems performed live and with real
>> orchestral people and Sophie Kauer is a remarkable cellist, from what
>> we can hear from her.
>>
>> -Owen
>>
>
> I was intrigued by the investment bakner Eliot Kaplan wanting to worm
> his way into conducting - presumably a reference to Gilbert Kaplan?
>

Yes. I caught that too. Obviously the script was written by someone
familiar with classical music, but I had no faith that Blanchett knew
what she was saying in her delivery of the lines.

Also, when the orchestra played, they cranked up the volume big time, I
suppose in an attempt for the viewer to feel immersed in the sound.

-Owen

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Tue, 23 May 2023 03:42 UTC

On 2023-05-22 19:27:27 +0000, Marc S said:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:15:43 UTC+2:
>
>
>>
>> Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?
>
> Seriosuly serious: I am no prophet.
> I would actually also have to read up more about it again.

Here in the US, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have hopefully prodded
the public to read up more about it, rather than just blindly support a
full war based on what's obviously a biased press corp. Wars are
serious things where good people die, and backing a war should not be a
hastened judgement.

> But as it seems, it's like a back and forth these days; I do ofc hope
> that Ukraine will regain the whole country back - including Sevastopol
> and Crimea.

So you are riding with hope. I see at least 4 possible outcomes, maybe
you can add more?

1 Russia backs down, removes troops everywhere that used to be
Ukraine. ("Hope")
2 Russia supplies more and more troops (read cannon fodder) and
eventually overcomes the Ukrainian resistance by attrition. Worked for
Russia in WWII. A solution they like.
3 The war drags on and on, fueled by US and European "donations" of
war materiel, and corresponding Russian investment resulting in massive
devastation of Ukraine and loss of life for both Russians and
Ukrainians.
4 The war escalates. Maybe Russia makes a punishment raid on another
country. Maybe even a NATO country, like say, Poland, . Maybe Ukraine
escalates into a desperation attack on Moscow attempting to assassinate
Putin (they may have already attempted this.) Nukes have already been
waving in the hot air, some military commander gets an itchy trigger
finder and decides to use one.

The rumors of Putin allegedly suffering from terminal cancer have
buoyed the possibility of 1) Hope, but that's fading as Putin seems to
carry on. Also, a loss from this war will be difficult politically for
the government to handle.

A war of attrition 2)would be tough for Ukraine to win. Sooner or
later, all the experienced season troops are killed and wounded, then
it's green troops against green troops and Russia has more troops.

3) is what I would predict would happen. Look at Vietnam,
Russia/Afghanistan, US/ Afghanistan, Iraq, the Iraq/Iran war as primary
examples. Lots of senseless killing aiding only the "military
industrial complex"

4) is the most dangerous of all. Do we really want this to turn into WWIII?

>
>>>
>>> And whatever you or Putin thinks: the Ukrainians don't care. And> >
>>> fortunately most of the USA and Europe doesn't either; even though I> >
>>> think they still don't care enough.
>> Maybe you should enlist if you care that deeply. If they're willing to>
>> die for a cause that you support, shouldn't you also be willing?
> It is not my job as a citizen, but a the job of the European militaries
> to take more action. The Ukrainians are actually thankful for donations
> (be it in militaristic or monetary or we means) already - they don't
> even ask you to fight for them, but to give them weapons. Very
> civilised as opposed to you. You don't value freedom.

The European militaries? You mean the countries that Trump had to
berate just to contribute their financial share to supporting NATO?
That sound like tough luck for Ukraine in the long run.

And unlike you, I do value freedom. Particularly freedom of speech.

-Owen

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Tue, 23 May 2023 04:12 UTC

On 2023-05-22 19:36:47 +0000, Marc S said:

>>
>
> Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and
> should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)

Good questions.

Who is the tyrant?

The easy answer would be Putin.

But let's look at the past, specifically 1962. Castro in Cuba wanted
Soviet protection in the form of nuclear missiles, which Khruschev
supplied. JFK invoked the Monroe Doctrine, which simply states that no
non-continental American country can meddle in the affairs of a
continental American country. JFK also pointed to nuclear missiles
being only 90 miles away from the US borders. Khrushchev backed down
after both countries were very close to nuclear conflict. Russia has
no Monroe Doctrine - no defense against missiles in surrounding
countries with borders less than 90 miles away from Russia. Was JFK a
tyrant in extorting a sovereign country (Cuba) divest itself of
weaponry at the threat of all out nuclear war? (Especially because JFK
tried to invade Cuba months earlier at the Bay of Pigs)

Contemporary accounts all praise JFK for "making the Soviets blink
first" and his cautious behavior during the crisis, but recent accounts
point out that JFK had bungled his way into the mess, and that he
brought us closest to the point of planet-destroying, all out nuclear
war. And essentially, JFK was acting like Putin is acting now. And
yes, although there was only a blockade, that is still an act of war,
and JFK first considered, and left on the table, a full scale invasion,
which would have led to nuclear catastrophe.

So was JFK a tyrant?

Should one rebel against him?

Rebel is not the right word because the Ukrainians are fighting an
invading power, not trying to overthrow their leader. Of course they
should fight back.

The questions are rather, who should be helping them, and how much help
should be given, especially if the help turns out to be a futile
gesture and/or if the danger of escalation exceeds the value of such
help.

-Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 04:43 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 05:44:00 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-22 19:27:27 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:15:43 UTC+2:
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?
> >
> > Seriosuly serious: I am no prophet.
> > I would actually also have to read up more about it again.
> Here in the US, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have hopefully prodded
> the public to read up more about it, rather than just blindly support a
> full war based on what's obviously a biased press corp. Wars are
> serious things where good people die, and backing a war should not be a
> hastened judgement.

So it was wrong of the Americans to kill Hussein?

a "full war"?! There was never a "full war" in Afghanistan from the side of the USA; the USA supported the Afghan National military, but there was no "full scale war" in Afghanistan.

"Wars are serious things where good people die, and backing a war should not be a hastened judgement"

- My dear friend, you sound like the fucking peace-loving Germans. Are you wearing your "anti-war-ribbon" yet, Owen?

- My dear friend, the war has been going on for longer than a year now - and as said: The fault _entirely_ lies on Putin. No matter how you try to find excuses. You remind me of the Germans who find excuses for the Germans waging WW2 and exterminating the Holocaust "oh the treaty of versailles" "oh this" "oh that".

If you want to prevent good people from dying you should help the Ukraine.

> > But as it seems, it's like a back and forth these days; I do ofc hope
> > that Ukraine will regain the whole country back - including Sevastopol
> > and Crimea.
> So you are riding with hope. I see at least 4 possible outcomes, maybe
> you can add more?

Look, I get that you are at least trying to take this seriously, but I can't Owen... you have discredited yourself already. And if you can't see why, and if you can't follow my line of thought I see no reason in discussing this matter any further with you.

>
> 1 Russia backs down, removes troops everywhere that used to be
> Ukraine. ("Hope")
> 2 Russia supplies more and more troops (read cannon fodder) and
> eventually overcomes the Ukrainian resistance by attrition. Worked for
> Russia in WWII. A solution they like.
> 3 The war drags on and on, fueled by US and European "donations" of
> war materiel, and corresponding Russian investment resulting in massive
> devastation of Ukraine and loss of life for both Russians and
> Ukrainians.
> 4 The war escalates. Maybe Russia makes a punishment raid on another
> country. Maybe even a NATO country, like say, Poland, . Maybe Ukraine
> escalates into a desperation attack on Moscow attempting to assassinate
> Putin (they may have already attempted this.) Nukes have already been
> waving in the hot air, some military commander gets an itchy trigger
> finder and decides to use one.
>
> The rumors of Putin allegedly suffering from terminal cancer have
> buoyed the possibility of 1) Hope, but that's fading as Putin seems to
> carry on. Also, a loss from this war will be difficult politically for
> the government to handle.
>
> A war of attrition 2)would be tough for Ukraine to win. Sooner or
> later, all the experienced season troops are killed and wounded, then
> it's green troops against green troops and Russia has more troops.
>
> 3) is what I would predict would happen. Look at Vietnam,
> Russia/Afghanistan, US/ Afghanistan, Iraq, the Iraq/Iran war as primary
> examples. Lots of senseless killing aiding only the "military
> industrial complex"
>
> 4) is the most dangerous of all. Do we really want this to turn into WWIII?

Now you remind me even more of the Germans with the apocalyptical scenarios you are imagining... "WW3", "nuclear war", "Covid gonna kill all of us", "Climate change gonna kill all of us" etc.

No rational thought on your side. If you consider it morally right to let the Ukrainians fight for themselves, deny them every support and even hold them responsible for the war - as they wanted to join the NATO - shows what a careless person you are; and these are the things you implied or directly said.

> >
> >>>
> >>> And whatever you or Putin thinks: the Ukrainians don't care. And> >
> >>> fortunately most of the USA and Europe doesn't either; even though I> >
> >>> think they still don't care enough.
> >> Maybe you should enlist if you care that deeply. If they're willing to>
> >> die for a cause that you support, shouldn't you also be willing?
> > It is not my job as a citizen, but a the job of the European militaries
> > to take more action. The Ukrainians are actually thankful for donations
> > (be it in militaristic or monetary or we means) already - they don't
> > even ask you to fight for them, but to give them weapons. Very
> > civilised as opposed to you. You don't value freedom.
> The European militaries? You mean the countries that Trump had to
> berate just to contribute their financial share to supporting NATO?
> That sound like tough luck for Ukraine in the long run.

Look... I am talking about an ideal scenario here... As I have implied, I know very well that the European militaries, and also governments (except for Poland and also I guess UK) - similarly to you btw - don't really care for the people in the Ukraine.

And... Owen: Trump did some good politics, that does mean that you should jerk off over him... try to be a bit more critical, get the jizz out of your eyes... Jesus...

>
> And unlike you, I do value freedom. Particularly freedom of speech.

Now you are confusing me... because you are confused yourself obviously. So it's actually alright for the Ukraine to speak about wanting the join the NATO - no matter what Putin or Trump has to say, eh?

>
> -Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 04:51 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 06:13:40 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-22 19:36:47 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> >>
> >
> > Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and
> > should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)
> Good questions.
>
> Who is the tyrant?
>
> The easy answer would be Putin.

Not only the "easy" answer, but the very obvious and truthful answer - yes.

Now you can imagine yourself a more "difficult" answer for this very simple problematic... like imagining that Biden is sort of responsible for the war, and that had Zelensky only provided some info (what info exactly?) on Biden the war would have never happened, or whatever else your monkeybrain wants to imagine, just to neglect the obivous...

I am not going to read your shit further as you clearly lack morals.

> -Owen

Look Owen... I aint going to read your shit any further. You clearly lack morals.

It is a moral duty for evey freedom-loving human being to support the Ukrainians in their endeavour to be free of Russia (in whatever form)... no need to write much about this...

Get the jizz out of your eyes...

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 05:08 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 06:44:00 UTC+2:
> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 05:44:00 UTC+2:
> > On 2023-05-22 19:27:27 +0000, Marc S said:
> >
> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:15:43 UTC+2:
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?
> > >
> > > Seriosuly serious: I am no prophet.
> > > I would actually also have to read up more about it again.
> > Here in the US, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have hopefully prodded
> > the public to read up more about it, rather than just blindly support a
> > full war based on what's obviously a biased press corp. Wars are
> > serious things where good people die, and backing a war should not be a
> > hastened judgement.
> So it was wrong of the Americans to kill Hussein?
>
> a "full war"?! There was never a "full war" in Afghanistan from the side of the USA; the USA supported the Afghan National military, but there was no "full scale war" in Afghanistan.
> "Wars are serious things where good people die, and backing a war should not be a hastened judgement"
> - My dear friend, you sound like the fucking peace-loving Germans. Are you wearing your "anti-war-ribbon" yet, Owen?
>
> - My dear friend, the war has been going on for longer than a year now - and as said: The fault _entirely_ lies on Putin. No matter how you try to find excuses. You remind me of the Germans who find excuses for the Germans waging WW2 and exterminating the Holocaust "oh the treaty of versailles" "oh this" "oh that".

*exterminating the Jews

See... your line of reasoning is as crazy as the line of reasoning of many Germans wrt the shoah and WW2 - you find excuses and explanations; you rationalize it (google this term, it is a psychological term):

"If only Biden hadn't done x, Putin would not have waged a war against he Ukraine"
"If only Zelensky had done x, there would be no war in the Ukraine, because Trump... because Trump the saviour blablabla..."

"If only there was not a treaty of Versailles"
"If only the Germans hadn't been in a such a bad place after WWI (for whcih they were responsible as well)"

So the Germans had all the reasons to run amok eh? So basically it's the fault of the Allies that the Germans wanted to exteriminate the Jews and wage war?

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 05:22 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 06:44:00 UTC+2:
> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 05:44:00 UTC+2:
> > The European militaries? You mean the countries that Trump had to
> > berate just to contribute their financial share to supporting NATO?
> > That sound like tough luck for Ukraine in the long run.
> Look... I am talking about an ideal scenario here... As I have implied, I know very well that the European militaries, and also governments (except for Poland and also I guess UK) - similarly to you btw - don't really care for the people in the Ukraine.
>
> And... Owen: Trump did some good politics, that does mean that you should jerk off over him... try to be a bit more critical, get the jizz out of your eyes... Jesus...

*that doesn't mean you should jerk off to Trump.

> >
> > And unlike you, I do value freedom. Particularly freedom of speech.
> Now you are confusing me... because you are confused yourself obviously. So it's actually alright for the Ukraine to speak about wanting the join the NATO - no matter what Putin or Trump has to say, eh?
>
> >
> > -Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Frank Berger - Tue, 23 May 2023 13:51 UTC

On 5/23/2023 12:12 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-05-22 19:36:47 +0000, Marc S said:
>
>>>
>>
>> Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)
>
> Good questions.
>
> Who is the tyrant?
>
> The easy answer would be Putin.
>
> But let's look at the past, specifically 1962.  Castro in Cuba wanted Soviet protection in the form of nuclear missiles, which Khruschev supplied.  JFK invoked the Monroe Doctrine, which simply states that no non-continental American country can meddle in the affairs of a continental American country.  JFK also pointed to nuclear missiles being only 90 miles away from the US borders.  Khrushchev backed down after both countries were very close to nuclear conflict.  Russia has no Monroe Doctrine - no defense against missiles in surrounding countries with borders less than 90 miles away from Russia.  Was JFK a tyrant in extorting a sovereign country (Cuba) divest itself of weaponry at the threat of all out nuclear war?  (Especially because JFK tried to invade Cuba months earlier at the Bay of Pigs)
>
> Contemporary accounts all praise JFK for "making the Soviets blink first" and his cautious behavior during the crisis, but recent accounts point out that JFK had bungled his way into the mess, and that he brought us closest to the point of planet-destroying, all out nuclear war.  And essentially, JFK was acting like Putin is acting now.  And yes, although there was only a blockade, that is still an act of war, and JFK first considered, and left on the table, a full scale invasion, which would have led to nuclear catastrophe.
>
> So was JFK a tyrant?
>
> Should one rebel against him?
>
> Rebel is not the right word because the Ukrainians are fighting an invading power, not trying to overthrow their leader.  Of course they should fight back.
>
> The questions are rather, who should be helping them, and how much help should be given, especially if the help turns out to be a futile gesture and/or if the danger of escalation exceeds the value of such help.
>
> -Owen
>

JFK was the elected leader of a representative government. Castro was not and Putin is not. That makes all the difference. To speak about a "sovereign country" is meaningless. There is a difference between a country and it's government.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Matthew Silverstein - Tue, 23 May 2023 14:57 UTC

"Why is rmcr a shadow of its former self? Where did all of the great posters of yore go? Why did they leave?" One wonders.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Frank Berger - Tue, 23 May 2023 15:29 UTC

On 5/23/2023 10:57 AM, Matthew Silverstein wrote:
> "Why is rmcr a shadow of its former self? Where did all of the great posters of yore go? Why did they leave?" One wonders.

Most of us are shadows of our former selves.

1. Attrition due to death and old age combined with a declining interest in CM among young people.
2. Scared away by rudeness and hostility. Not sure we have evidence that there are many of these.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Matthew Silverstein - Tue, 23 May 2023 15:37 UTC

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:31:33 PM UTC+4, Frank Berger wrote:

> 1. Attrition due to death and old age combined with a declining interest in CM among young people.
> 2. Scared away by rudeness and hostility. Not sure we have evidence that there are many of these.

Do we have evidence that people like Tony Movshon, Simon Roberts, Paul Kintzele, and others left due to death or old age (or due to the fact that they somehow became young and thus lost interest in classical music)?

Matty

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 15:47 UTC

Matthew Silverstein schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 17:37:15 UTC+2:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:31:33 PM UTC+4, Frank Berger wrote:
>
> > 1. Attrition due to death and old age combined with a declining interest in CM among young people.
> > 2. Scared away by rudeness and hostility. Not sure we have evidence that there are many of these.
> Do we have evidence that people like Tony Movshon, Simon Roberts, Paul Kintzele, and others left due to death or old age (or due to the fact that they somehow became young and thus lost interest in classical music)?

Don't we have a lack of evidence in anyway whatsoever? What conclusions are you drawing exactly, and from what evidence? Could it also be that you retroactively idealize things a little bit at least?

You only named 3 posters... and you probably coutn yourself among them, that makes 4... now... try to think further...

>
> Matty

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 16:02 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 17:47:04 UTC+2:
> Matthew Silverstein schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 17:37:15 UTC+2:
> > On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:31:33 PM UTC+4, Frank Berger wrote:
> >
> > > 1. Attrition due to death and old age combined with a declining interest in CM among young people.
> > > 2. Scared away by rudeness and hostility. Not sure we have evidence that there are many of these.
> > Do we have evidence that people like Tony Movshon, Simon Roberts, Paul Kintzele, and others left due to death or old age (or due to the fact that they somehow became young and thus lost interest in classical music)?
> Don't we have a lack of evidence in anyway whatsoever? What conclusions are you drawing exactly, and from what evidence? Could it also be that you retroactively idealize things a little bit at least?
>
> You only named 3 posters... and you probably coutn yourself among them, that makes 4... now... try to think further...

maybe you'll count wkasimer, oscar etc among them... but hmmm... I don't know... people mostly recommended stuff here from what I have seen, I rarely saw - except in some cases - discussions that were going a bit deeper; mostly it was rather superficial - but still I found very good recs here.

>
> >
> > Matty

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Subject: Re: Tar -- the Movie Review
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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 18:01 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 19:26:59 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-23 04:43:57 +0000, Marc S said:
>
> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 05:44:00 UTC+2:
> On 2023-05-22 19:27:27 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 22. Mai 2023 um 21:15:43 UTC+2:> >> >> >>> >> Here's a serious question: How do you think this war will end?> >> > Seriosuly serious: I am no prophet.> > I would actually also have to read up more about it again.
> Here in the US, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have hopefully prodded> the public to read up more about it, rather than just blindly support a> full war based on what's obviously a biased press corp. Wars are> serious things where good people die, and backing a war should not be a> hastened judgement.
>
> So it was wrong of the Americans to kill Hussein?
> It was wrong of Americans to go to war in Iraq, especially under false pretenses. Isn't that generally accepted?

Isn't it generally accepted that Trump was a bad president as well? Now try to think for yourself...

The pretenses were false; but Saddam Hussein was nevertheless a lunatic warlord and brutal dictator - it was very good that people got rid of him. Now some iraqis will see this differently, and some will see it like I do. Also - if I remember correctly - most countries, including Russia and many (most?) Arab countries welcomed this move

Now I'm done with you monkey - there isn't much to discuss anymore; there is only one thing for you to do Owen: To reflect on your idiocy and your lack of empathy for the Ukrainains, and your lack of understanding on their situation.

On another note: I have to revise myself again... my favourite 5 composers.... and this time I'm very sure... are: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.

Noone I think comes close to them.

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Tue, 23 May 2023 18:38 UTC

On 2023-05-23 13:51:30 +0000, Frank Berger said:

> On 5/23/2023 12:12 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>> On 2023-05-22 19:36:47 +0000, Marc S said:
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and
>>> should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)
>>
>> Good questions.
>>
>> Who is the tyrant?
>>
>> The easy answer would be Putin.
>>
>> But let's look at the past, specifically 1962.  Castro in Cuba wanted
>> Soviet protection in the form of nuclear missiles, which Khruschev
>> supplied.  JFK invoked the Monroe Doctrine, which simply states that no
>> non-continental American country can meddle in the affairs of a
>> continental American country.  JFK also pointed to nuclear missiles
>> being only 90 miles away from the US borders.  Khrushchev backed down
>> after both countries were very close to nuclear conflict.  Russia has
>> no Monroe Doctrine - no defense against missiles in surrounding
>> countries with borders less than 90 miles away from Russia.  Was JFK a
>> tyrant in extorting a sovereign country (Cuba) divest itself of
>> weaponry at the threat of all out nuclear war?  (Especially because JFK
>> tried to invade Cuba months earlier at the Bay of Pigs)
>>
>> Contemporary accounts all praise JFK for "making the Soviets blink
>> first" and his cautious behavior during the crisis, but recent accounts
>> point out that JFK had bungled his way into the mess, and that he
>> brought us closest to the point of planet-destroying, all out nuclear
>> war.  And essentially, JFK was acting like Putin is acting now.  And
>> yes, although there was only a blockade, that is still an act of war,
>> and JFK first considered, and left on the table, a full scale invasion,
>> which would have led to nuclear catastrophe.
>>
>> So was JFK a tyrant?
>>
>> Should one rebel against him?
>>
>> Rebel is not the right word because the Ukrainians are fighting an
>> invading power, not trying to overthrow their leader.  Of course they
>> should fight back.
>>
>> The questions are rather, who should be helping them, and how much help
>> should be given, especially if the help turns out to be a futile
>> gesture and/or if the danger of escalation exceeds the value of such
>> help.
>>
>> -Owen
>>
>
> JFK was the elected leader of a representative government. Castro was
> not and Putin is not. That makes all the difference. To speak about a
> "sovereign country" is meaningless. There is a difference between a
> country and it's government.

Putin was elected. There were even people who voted for someone else.
You might justifiably say those elections were fixed, but people said
that about JFK's election, and they're still saying it about our
current elections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Vladimir_Putin

-Owen

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

<keycnX2ySbxLjPD5nZ2dnZfqnPZh4p2d@supernews.com>

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 by: Frank Berger - Tue, 23 May 2023 19:19 UTC

On 5/23/2023 2:38 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> On 2023-05-23 13:51:30 +0000, Frank Berger said:
>
>> On 5/23/2023 12:12 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
>>> On 2023-05-22 19:36:47 +0000, Marc S said:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)
>>>
>>> Good questions.
>>>
>>> Who is the tyrant?
>>>
>>> The easy answer would be Putin.
>>>
>>> But let's look at the past, specifically 1962.  Castro in Cuba wanted Soviet protection in the form of nuclear missiles, which Khruschev supplied.  JFK invoked the Monroe Doctrine, which simply states that no non-continental American country can meddle in the affairs of a continental American country.  JFK also pointed to nuclear missiles being only 90 miles away from the US borders.  Khrushchev backed down after both countries were very close to nuclear conflict.  Russia has no Monroe Doctrine - no defense against missiles in surrounding countries with borders less than 90 miles away from Russia.  Was JFK a tyrant in extorting a sovereign country (Cuba) divest itself of weaponry at the threat of all out nuclear war?  (Especially because JFK tried to invade Cuba months earlier at the Bay of Pigs)
>>>
>>> Contemporary accounts all praise JFK for "making the Soviets blink first" and his cautious behavior during the crisis, but recent accounts point out that JFK had bungled his way into the mess, and that he brought us closest to the point of planet-destroying, all out nuclear war.  And essentially, JFK was acting like Putin is acting now.  And yes, although there was only a blockade, that is still an act of war, and JFK first considered, and left on the table, a full scale invasion, which would have led to nuclear catastrophe.
>>>
>>> So was JFK a tyrant?
>>>
>>> Should one rebel against him?
>>>
>>> Rebel is not the right word because the Ukrainians are fighting an invading power, not trying to overthrow their leader.  Of course they should fight back.
>>>
>>> The questions are rather, who should be helping them, and how much help should be given, especially if the help turns out to be a futile gesture and/or if the danger of escalation exceeds the value of such help.
>>>
>>> -Owen
>>>
>>
>> JFK was the elected leader of a representative government.  Castro was not and Putin is not.  That makes all the difference.  To speak about a "sovereign country" is meaningless.  There is a difference between a country and it's government.
>
> Putin was elected. There were even people who voted for someone else. You might justifiably say those elections were fixed, but people said that about JFK's election, and they're still saying it about our current elections.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Vladimir_Putin
>
> -Owen
>

If you think there is a fair comparison between any American President's legitimacy and Castro or Putin the is nothing to talk about.

Re: Tar -- the Movie Review

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 by: Marc S - Tue, 23 May 2023 19:41 UTC

Frank Berger schrieb am Dienstag, 23. Mai 2023 um 21:21:37 UTC+2:
> On 5/23/2023 2:38 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> > On 2023-05-23 13:51:30 +0000, Frank Berger said:
> >
> >> On 5/23/2023 12:12 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
> >>> On 2023-05-22 19:36:47 +0000, Marc S said:
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me ask you two serious questions: Who do think is the tyrant and should one rebell against him? (speaking of Russia's war on Ukraine ofc)
> >>>
> >>> Good questions.
> >>>
> >>> Who is the tyrant?
> >>>
> >>> The easy answer would be Putin.
> >>>
> >>> But let's look at the past, specifically 1962. Castro in Cuba wanted Soviet protection in the form of nuclear missiles, which Khruschev supplied. JFK invoked the Monroe Doctrine, which simply states that no non-continental American country can meddle in the affairs of a continental American country. JFK also pointed to nuclear missiles being only 90 miles away from the US borders. Khrushchev backed down after both countries were very close to nuclear conflict. Russia has no Monroe Doctrine - no defense against missiles in surrounding countries with borders less than 90 miles away from Russia. Was JFK a tyrant in extorting a sovereign country (Cuba) divest itself of weaponry at the threat of all out nuclear war? (Especially because JFK tried to invade Cuba months earlier at the Bay of Pigs)
> >>>
> >>> Contemporary accounts all praise JFK for "making the Soviets blink first" and his cautious behavior during the crisis, but recent accounts point out that JFK had bungled his way into the mess, and that he brought us closest to the point of planet-destroying, all out nuclear war. And essentially, JFK was acting like Putin is acting now. And yes, although there was only a blockade, that is still an act of war, and JFK first considered, and left on the table, a full scale invasion, which would have led to nuclear catastrophe.
> >>>
> >>> So was JFK a tyrant?
> >>>
> >>> Should one rebel against him?
> >>>
> >>> Rebel is not the right word because the Ukrainians are fighting an invading power, not trying to overthrow their leader. Of course they should fight back.
> >>>
> >>> The questions are rather, who should be helping them, and how much help should be given, especially if the help turns out to be a futile gesture and/or if the danger of escalation exceeds the value of such help.
> >>>
> >>> -Owen
> >>>
> >>
> >> JFK was the elected leader of a representative government. Castro was not and Putin is not. That makes all the difference. To speak about a "sovereign country" is meaningless. There is a difference between a country and it's government.
> >
> > Putin was elected. There were even people who voted for someone else. You might justifiably say those elections were fixed, but people said that about JFK's election, and they're still saying it about our current elections.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_history_of_Vladimir_Putin
> >
> > -Owen
> >
> If you think there is a fair comparison between any American President's legitimacy and Castro or Putin the is nothing to talk about.

Exactly my thoughts... (wanted to write them down before, then thought like: ah na... I don't want to engage w him no more...)

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