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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

SubjectAuthor
* Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka
+* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
|`* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka
| `* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka
|  `- Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
+- Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
+* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
|`* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka
| +- Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
| `* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogueraymond....@gmail.com
|  `* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka
|   `- Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka
+- Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
`* Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueDan Koren
 `- Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's CatalogueMandryka

1
Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Tue, 23 May 2023 18:54 UTC

I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more impressed by a performance of this music.

Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Tue, 23 May 2023 23:51 UTC

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more impressed by a performance of this music.
>
> Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira

How does it compare with Anatol Ugorski?

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kbfAKpFFZwq3MVtA5Iaby0sYdwIwoOLRM

Sorry I have no time to listen now,
today is car maintenance day.

dk

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Wed, 24 May 2023 12:42 UTC

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:51:52 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more impressed by a performance of this music.
> >
> > Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira
> How does it compare with Anatol Ugorski?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kbfAKpFFZwq3MVtA5Iaby0sYdwIwoOLRM
>
> Sorry I have no time to listen now,
> today is car maintenance day.
>
> dk

I don't 'know for sure as it's a while since I listened attentively to Ugorski's Messiaen. I think the difference is as follows. Ugorski is the better pianist - a more refined touch and more subtle technique. Oliveira is the better musician here -- she has a better understanding of how to use piano colour and tempo and phrasing and textural contrasts to make the music cohere.

By the way, Dan, what did you think of Dina Ugorskaja's Mozart CD?

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Wed, 24 May 2023 15:59 UTC

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 1:42:28 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 12:51:52 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more impressed by a performance of this music.
> > >
> > > Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira
> > How does it compare with Anatol Ugorski?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kbfAKpFFZwq3MVtA5Iaby0sYdwIwoOLRM
> >
> > Sorry I have no time to listen now,
> > today is car maintenance day.
> >
> > dk
> I don't 'know for sure as it's a while since I listened attentively to Ugorski's Messiaen. I think the difference is as follows. Ugorski is the better pianist - a more refined touch and more subtle technique. Oliveira is the better musician here -- she has a better understanding of how to use piano colour and tempo and phrasing and textural contrasts to make the music cohere.
>
> By the way, Dan, what did you think of Dina Ugorskaja's Mozart CD?

Sorry, I should have said Elena Bashkirova’s Mozart CD!

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 25 May 2023 00:20 UTC

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:59:53 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 1:42:28 PM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > By the way, Dan, what did you think of Dina Ugorskaja's Mozart CD?
>
> Sorry, I should have said Elena Bashkirova’s Mozart CD!

Haven't heard it. Mozart is not a high priority right now.

dk

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 25 May 2023 01:48 UTC

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more impressed by a performance of this music.
>
> Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira

On first hearing my cats are not impressed.
Not enough variey of sound and textures
they say. They know a bird or two from
direct contact. Was Messiaen a dog
person?

dk

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 25 May 2023 02:09 UTC

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a
> sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more
> impressed by a performance of this music.
>
> Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira

This seems to be closer to her personal style:

https://youtu.be/lAE6fiZ8xqw

dk

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Thu, 25 May 2023 03:50 UTC

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:09:34 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a
> > sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more
> > impressed by a performance of this music.
> >
> > Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira
> This seems to be closer to her personal style:
>
> https://youtu.be/lAE6fiZ8xqw
>
> dk

Yes, she’s a composer, I’ve not heard her music yet. I listened to Ugorski and Oliveira playing the wonderful piece called L'alouette lulu and I stand by what I said - she’s the better musician, Ugorski the more refined pianist.

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 25 May 2023 05:04 UTC

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:50:30 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> Yes, she’s a composer, I’ve not heard her music yet. I
> listened to Ugorski and Oliveira playing the wonderful
> piece called L'alouette lulu and I stand by what I said -
> she’s the better musician, Ugorski the more refined
> pianist.

Stand as much as you like. The distinction between
"better musician" and "more refined pianist" smells
of irrational belief. How can one tell someone is a
"better musician" if that person does not play the
instrument (at least) equally well? Are you now
channeling Monseigneur Saumur de Gaullesco? ;-)

dk

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: raymond....@gmail.com (raymond....@gmail.com)
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 by: raymond....@gmail.co - Thu, 25 May 2023 05:05 UTC

On Thursday, 25 May 2023 at 13:50:30 UTC+10, Mandryka wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 3:09:34 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 11:54:40 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm really impressed. She knows how to give the music a
> > > sense of coherence somehow. I have never been more
> > > impressed by a performance of this music.
> > >
> > > Streaming everywhere, examples on youtube, like this
> > >
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5XWTypewc&ab_channel=JocydeOliveira
> > This seems to be closer to her personal style:
> >
> > https://youtu.be/lAE6fiZ8xqw
> >
> > dk
> Yes, she’s a composer, I’ve not heard her music yet. I listened to Ugorski and Oliveira playing the wonderful piece called L'alouette lulu and I stand by what I said - she’s the better musician, Ugorski the more refined pianist.

I took the chance to compare both in No.4 and agree that Oliveira conveys the music to me much better, whilst Ugorski is perhaps without doubt a better technician. Just goes to show ....

Ray Hall, Taree

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Thu, 25 May 2023 06:52 UTC

This is often the case with Ugorski, most obviously in his commercial recording of op 111/ii. I feel Sviatoslav Richter was often like that - excellent piano playing but just not a very valuable conception of the music. We saw it recently here with the Mendelssohn etudes, and his Grieg lyric pieces is another example.

A third example just came to mind. Horowitz’s over-embellished Czerny variations.

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Thu, 25 May 2023 06:53 UTC

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:52:05 AM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> This is often the case with Ugorski, most obviously in his commercial recording of op 111/ii. I feel Sviatoslav Richter was often like that - excellent piano playing but just not a very valuable conception of the music. We saw it recently here with the Mendelssohn etudes, and his Grieg lyric pieces is another example.
>
> A third example just came to mind. Horowitz’s over-embellished Czerny variations.
I mean Mendelssohn variations sérieuses of course!

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 25 May 2023 09:01 UTC

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 11:52:05 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> I feel Sviatoslav Richter was often like that -
> excellent piano playing but just not a very
> valuable conception of the music.

I hope you and everyone else realize the
absurdity of this notion. How does one
extract "conception" from sounds ?!?

Your statement effectively means that
you believe you recognize your own
ideas and "conception" in someone
else's performance.

This is circular and self referential.
One's "conception" of a music work
is completely meaningless unless
one can actually materialize it in
one's own performance.

Dio you need a piano?

dk

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: dan.ko...@gmail.com (Dan Koren)
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 by: Dan Koren - Thu, 25 May 2023 20:55 UTC

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 11:52:05 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> I feel Sviatoslav Richter was often like that -
> excellent piano playing but just not a very
> valuable conception of the music.

I hope you and everyone else realize the
absurdity of this notion. How does one
extract "conception" from sounds ?!?

Your statement effectively means that
you believe you recognize your own
ideas and "conception" in someone
else's performance.

This is circular and self referential.
One's "conception" of a music work
is completely meaningless unless
one can actually materialize it in
one's own performance.

Do you need a piano?

dk

Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue

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Subject: Re: Jocy de Oliveira plays Messiaen's Catalogue
From: howie.st...@gmail.com (Mandryka)
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 by: Mandryka - Thu, 14 Sep 2023 07:38 UTC

Another good one to contrast with Jocy De Oliveira - Ciro Longobardi.

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