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arts / rec.music.classical.recordings / Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

SubjectAuthor
* Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Oscar
+* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Dan Koren
|+* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Herman
||`- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Dan Koren
|`* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
| `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
|  `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
|   `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
|    `- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
+- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
+- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Al Eisner
`* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Matthew Silverstein
 `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Pluted Pup
  +* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |+- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |`* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  | +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  | +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  | `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |  `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |   `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |    `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |     `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |      `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |       `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |        `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |         `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |          +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |          `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .gggg gggg
  |           `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |            `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             |`- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Gerard
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .vhorowitz
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Paul Alsing
  |             +* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Brigitte
  |             |`* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Owen Hartnett
  |             | +* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             | |+- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Pluted Pup
  |             | |`- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Owen Hartnett
  |             | `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             |  +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             |  `- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Gerard
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Dan Koren
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .vhorowitz
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Dan Koren
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             +- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Marc S
  |             `- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Dan Koren
  `* Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Pluted Pup
   `- Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .Pluted Pup

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Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 29 May 2023 18:21 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 16:58:20 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 16:19:45 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 16:10:25 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 14:10:44 UTC+2:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 09:03:10 UTC+2:
> > > > > Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 28. Mai 2023 um 23:32:48 UTC+2:
> > > > > > Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 28. Mai 2023 um 22:14:45 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 25. Mai 2023 um 14:48:40 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > > Best Beethoven 9th - despite some issue w the recording quality: Erich Kleiber
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Wonderful conductor - I might have said some stupid things about him in the past on here, just as I did so often with other works and interpreters (especially ones that I really liked at first and then tried to reevaluate) which then turned out to be my favourites... so with this said I sort of want to make things good again. Thank you for listening.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > My favourite conductors right now (criteria: favourite recording of a favourite piece of mine): Beecham, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Klemperer
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Okay, I'm officially done with Klemperer (after listening to bits of Zauberflöte and DG again)... it all just made sense to me; I don't like him. Gotta ditch these cds as well... Well, I'm still learning...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I guess the best Zauberflöte is either Karajan's or Fricsay's...
> > > > > > or Beecham's? Would have to relisten...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best DG... Probably Mitropoulos' or maybe Fricsay's?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Should relisten...
> > > > > I think Beecham's and Karajan's Zauberflöte might be the best (not sure which I like more yet)... I am not too much a fan of Fricsay's.... same wrt his Serail, Nozze and DG and also his Beethoven; and the Brahms I heard years ago...
> > > > >
> > > > > My favourite conductors as of yet: Beecham, Karajan and E. Kleiber.
> > > > >
> > > > > Other conductors that come to mind when thinking about conductors I like(d) to listen to (note: They might not have recorded a favourite recording of a favourite piece of mine): Reiner, Celibidache, Abravanel, C. Kleiber, Horenstein, Kertesz, Kubelik, maybe Barbirolli... Kegel... maybe Keilberth... Rozhdestvensky, Kondrashin, Mitropoulos... hmmm... Dohnanyi... hmmm... Boulez... maybe also Chailly... Mengelberg...
> > > > Beecham's Zauberflöte is the best... Karajan doesn't come close... I believe noone does...
> > > Hmmm probably I need the Karajan as well... Kunz is a great Papageno.... but there are some parts I like more in Beecham's recording... ya... these two are my favourite... and in Nozze it's Karajan and Kleiber... just can't decide...
> *I don't just like some parts more in Beecham's recording, but the recording in general; I should add that I didn't want to imply that I didn't like Hüsch, he is a great Papageno as well.
>
> Beecham's phrasing is just so wonderful... It's as if Karajan just has no feel for "Die Zauberflöte" at all (see his later recording as well), very boring conducting... just compare "Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja" wrt phrasing (and notice the very sharp wind playing in Karajan's recording).... or act 2 scene 1, and scene 2... no magic in Karajan...

So obviously I do not need Karajan... but I think I need Fritz Busch in DG.... and maybe also Mitropoulos... can't think of any better...

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Mon, 29 May 2023 18:31 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 20:21:26 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Montag, 29. Mai 2023 um 16:58:20 UTC+2:
> > Beecham's phrasing is just so wonderful... It's as if Karajan just has no feel for "Die Zauberflöte" at all (see his later recording as well), very boring conducting... just compare "Der Vogelfänger bin ich ja" wrt phrasing (and notice the very sharp wind playing in Karajan's recording)... or act 2 scene 1, and scene 2... no magic in Karajan...
> So obviously I do not need Karajan... but I think I need Fritz Busch in DG... and maybe also Mitropoulos... can't think of any better...

hmmm thinking about it... not so sure which I like more... maybe I actually like Mitropoulos' DG more than Busch's... will have to relisten, but these are surely - imo - the best accounts of this opera...

Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Karajan and E. Kleiber
DG: Mitropoulos and probably also Busch
Cosi: Karajan (maybe some Busch if I buy his set; same ofc wrt to his Nozze)
Zauberflöte: Beecham
Ya... looks right.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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 by: Pluted Pup - Wed, 31 May 2023 21:13 UTC

On Sat, 27 May 2023 21:33:20 -0700, Pluted Pup wrote:

> On Tue, 23 May 2023 10:21:55 -0700, Pluted Pup wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 23 May 2023 08:00:49 -0700, Matthew Silverstein wrote:
> >
> > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 6:37:39???AM UTC+4, Oscar wrote:
> > > > . . . Sándor Végh (May 17, 1912-January 7, 1997). This is according to Steven Isserlis's Twitter feed. Naturally, I am seeking recommendations from the group for Végh recordings. I have an extensive CD and LP collection, but I daresay I have but more than 1 or 2 or 3 titles by the Hungarian maestro. The Schiff Mozart Concertos on Decca probably account for half of those. Thanks in advance.
> > >
> > > Schubert symphonies
> > > Mozart serenades and divertimenti
> > >
> > > Both on Capriccio, both with Camerata Salzburg. Not my favorites, but definitely distinctive and worth hearing.
> >
> > Is the Vegh Schubert 9 on Capriccio the same recording as on BMC?
> >
> > I don't know the recording dates of either.
>
> The Vegh Schubert 9 on Capriccio lists the recording date
> as 26. & 28.03.1993
>
> What's the recording date of the Schubert 9 on BMC?

The Vegh Schubert 9 on BMC is listed as 23 March 1993.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 1 Jun 2023 19:10 UTC

Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor which was mainly in reference to a Zauberflöte recording of his - wrong, it is not good, very bad conducting; just relistened. Keilberth's Beethoven and Wagner are also very bad - from what I listened to.

I also have to correct myself wrt Fricsay... While I never liked his Beethoven, and always had problems with his DG and Nozze (I like them darker, not as colorful), I think his Zauberflöte and Serail are actually really good.

So the best Zauberflötes are: Beecham and Fricsay (same goes for Serail); Karajan has good singers but when one compares his conducting to Beecham or Fricsay... ehhhh...

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Thu, 1 Jun 2023 19:14 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 21:10:19 UTC+2:
> Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor which was mainly in reference to a Zauberflöte recording of his - wrong, it is not good, very bad conducting; just relistened. Keilberth's Beethoven and Wagner are also very bad - from what I listened to.
>
> I also have to correct myself wrt Fricsay... While I never liked his Beethoven, and always had problems with his DG and Nozze (I like them darker, not as colorful), I think his Zauberflöte and Serail are actually really good.
>
> So the best Zauberflötes are: Beecham and Fricsay (same goes for Serail); Karajan has good singers but when one compares his conducting to Beecham or Fricsay... ehhhh...

*wrt Karajan talking about his Zauberflöte obviously; as I mentioned above, I really like him in Nozze (1950) and Cosi (1954).

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: ggggg9...@gmail.com (gggg gggg)
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 by: gggg gggg - Thu, 1 Jun 2023 21:46 UTC

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...

K. conducts Pfitzner.

(Y. upload):

"Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:01 UTC

gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
>
> K. conducts Pfitzner.
>
> (Y. upload):
>
> "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"

You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...

So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter

My favourite Mozart opera recordings:

Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:18 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:01:09 UTC+2:
> gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
> >
> > K. conducts Pfitzner.
> >
> > (Y. upload):
> >
> > "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"
> You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...
>
> So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter
>
> My favourite Mozart opera recordings:
>
> Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
> Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
> DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
> Cosi: Karajan
> Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay

*sorry got to take back what I said about Walter's DG; Busch's is better... just canceled my order, after listening to it again. I wrote the above comment after stubmling on a video of Ezio Pinza singing "Madamina", conducted by Bruno Walter which I really liked, falsely assumed it was from his 1942 Met recording, it's actually from 1946... I really don't like Walter in 1942 DG Met, too relentless, no feeling for the music.

So no more one of my favourite conductors. I still feel I don't like Busch's DG as much as Mitropoulos... so I'll probably not buy it, but I need one - if not both - of Fricsay's Serails, and Fricsay Zauberflöte.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:22 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:19:00 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:01:09 UTC+2:
> > gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
> > >
> > > K. conducts Pfitzner.
> > >
> > > (Y. upload):
> > >
> > > "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"
> > You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...
> >
> > So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter
> >
> > My favourite Mozart opera recordings:
> >
> > Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
> > Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
> > DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
> > Cosi: Karajan
> > Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay
> *sorry got to take back what I said about Walter's DG; Busch's is better.... just canceled my order, after listening to it again. I wrote the above comment after stubmling on a video of Ezio Pinza singing "Madamina", conducted by Bruno Walter which I really liked, falsely assumed it was from his 1942 Met recording, it's actually from 1946... I really don't like Walter in 1942 DG Met, too relentless, no feeling for the music.
>
> So no more one of my favourite conductors. I still feel I don't like Busch's DG as much as Mitropoulos... so I'll probably not buy it, but I need one - if not both - of Fricsay's Serails, and Fricsay Zauberflöte.

Na, don't need the Busch... Walter showed me that you can get much more out of this... *should have ofc realized it couldn't be the 1942 performance, since Pinza is singign Leporello here, sorry for the confusion. But still.... you really see what Walter gets out of this.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

<6dcf7691-9be8-48eb-bb0e-07f9800f6bb6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:24 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:22:58 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:19:00 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:01:09 UTC+2:
> > > gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> > > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
> > > >
> > > > K. conducts Pfitzner.
> > > >
> > > > (Y. upload):
> > > >
> > > > "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"
> > > You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...
> > >
> > > So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter
> > >
> > > My favourite Mozart opera recordings:
> > >
> > > Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
> > > Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
> > > DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > Cosi: Karajan
> > > Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay
> > *sorry got to take back what I said about Walter's DG; Busch's is better... just canceled my order, after listening to it again. I wrote the above comment after stubmling on a video of Ezio Pinza singing "Madamina", conducted by Bruno Walter which I really liked, falsely assumed it was from his 1942 Met recording, it's actually from 1946... I really don't like Walter in 1942 DG Met, too relentless, no feeling for the music.
> >
> > So no more one of my favourite conductors. I still feel I don't like Busch's DG as much as Mitropoulos... so I'll probably not buy it, but I need one - if not both - of Fricsay's Serails, and Fricsay Zauberflöte.
> Na, don't need the Busch... Walter showed me that you can get much more out of this... *should have ofc realized it couldn't be the 1942 performance, since Pinza is singign Leporello here, sorry for the confusion. But still.... you really see what Walter gets out of this.

Not to forget what Mitropoulos gets out of thsi either...

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

<3042b20a-fd63-4a8a-a80d-0d4b38252ed1n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 21:33 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:24:57 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:22:58 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:19:00 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:01:09 UTC+2:
> > > > gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> > > > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
> > > > >
> > > > > K. conducts Pfitzner.
> > > > >
> > > > > (Y. upload):
> > > > >
> > > > > "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"
> > > > You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...
> > > >
> > > > So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > >
> > > > My favourite Mozart opera recordings:
> > > >
> > > > Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
> > > > Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
> > > > DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > > Cosi: Karajan
> > > > Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay
> > > *sorry got to take back what I said about Walter's DG; Busch's is better... just canceled my order, after listening to it again. I wrote the above comment after stubmling on a video of Ezio Pinza singing "Madamina", conducted by Bruno Walter which I really liked, falsely assumed it was from his 1942 Met recording, it's actually from 1946... I really don't like Walter in 1942 DG Met, too relentless, no feeling for the music.
> > >
> > > So no more one of my favourite conductors. I still feel I don't like Busch's DG as much as Mitropoulos... so I'll probably not buy it, but I need one - if not both - of Fricsay's Serails, and Fricsay Zauberflöte.
> > Na, don't need the Busch... Walter showed me that you can get much more out of this... *should have ofc realized it couldn't be the 1942 performance, since Pinza is singign Leporello here, sorry for the confusion. But still... you really see what Walter gets out of this.
> Not to forget what Mitropoulos gets out of thsi either...

Na, I don't need Fricsay's Zauberflöte or Serail... I don't like his conducting style (and also some of the singers)... I mean it's okay... but he is no Beecham, Karajan, E. Kleiber or Mitropoulos...

So my favourite Mozart opera recordings are as follows:

Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Karajan (I also have E. Kleiber, and I like it a lot, but I prefer Karajan here; it's a close second though)
DG: Mitropoulos
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Beecham

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

<4a61601b-e76e-4c78-b924-859226689d97n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Fri, 2 Jun 2023 21:46 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 23:33:55 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:24:57 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:22:58 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:19:00 UTC+2:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:01:09 UTC+2:
> > > > > gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> > > > > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > K. conducts Pfitzner.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (Y. upload):
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"
> > > > > You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...
> > > > >
> > > > > So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > > >
> > > > > My favourite Mozart opera recordings:
> > > > >
> > > > > Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
> > > > > Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
> > > > > DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > > > Cosi: Karajan
> > > > > Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay
> > > > *sorry got to take back what I said about Walter's DG; Busch's is better... just canceled my order, after listening to it again. I wrote the above comment after stubmling on a video of Ezio Pinza singing "Madamina", conducted by Bruno Walter which I really liked, falsely assumed it was from his 1942 Met recording, it's actually from 1946... I really don't like Walter in 1942 DG Met, too relentless, no feeling for the music.
> > > >
> > > > So no more one of my favourite conductors. I still feel I don't like Busch's DG as much as Mitropoulos... so I'll probably not buy it, but I need one - if not both - of Fricsay's Serails, and Fricsay Zauberflöte.
> > > Na, don't need the Busch... Walter showed me that you can get much more out of this... *should have ofc realized it couldn't be the 1942 performance, since Pinza is singign Leporello here, sorry for the confusion. But still... you really see what Walter gets out of this.
> > Not to forget what Mitropoulos gets out of thsi either...
> Na, I don't need Fricsay's Zauberflöte or Serail... I don't like his conducting style (and also some of the singers)... I mean it's okay... but he is no Beecham, Karajan, E. Kleiber or Mitropoulos...
>
> So my favourite Mozart opera recordings are as follows:
>
> Serail: Beecham
> Nozze: Karajan (I also have E. Kleiber, and I like it a lot, but I prefer Karajan here; it's a close second though)
> DG: Mitropoulos
> Cosi: Karajan
> Zauberflöte: Beecham

hmmm maybe I have to give a little more thought wrt Fricsay...

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

<286b3ff7-a1af-4f2c-aa56-ca2e97c35f52n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Sat, 3 Jun 2023 15:03 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 23:46:32 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 23:33:55 UTC+2:
> > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:24:57 UTC+2:
> > > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:22:58 UTC+2:
> > > > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:19:00 UTC+2:
> > > > > Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 2. Juni 2023 um 21:01:09 UTC+2:
> > > > > > gggg gggg schrieb am Donnerstag, 1. Juni 2023 um 23:46:51 UTC+2:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:10:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> > > > > > > > Somehwere in this thread I talked about Keilberth maybe being a good conductor...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > K. conducts Pfitzner.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > (Y. upload):
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Clara Ebers " Vier Lieder" Hans Pfitzner"
> > > > > > You know, I think you are right about Bruno Walter's DG, it is the best alongside Mitropoulos'. Busch I think is not so good... he is nowhere near Walter or Karajan or Fricsay or Beecham or Erich Kleiber or Mitropoulos as a musician...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So my favourite conductors (as of yet) are the above mentioned: Beecham, Fricsay, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My favourite Mozart opera recordings:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Serail: Beecham, Fricsay (not sure which one to choose yet, the DG or the audite or both)
> > > > > > Nozze: Karajan, E. Kleiber (maybe also Walter with Pinza 1944, haven't heard it yet; got myself the West Hill Radio Archives Version of Walter's DG and Nozze - digitally restored by Ward Marston; features from what I read a better sound than the other versions)
> > > > > > DG: Mitropoulos, Walter
> > > > > > Cosi: Karajan
> > > > > > Zauberflöte: Beecham, Fricsay
> > > > > *sorry got to take back what I said about Walter's DG; Busch's is better... just canceled my order, after listening to it again. I wrote the above comment after stubmling on a video of Ezio Pinza singing "Madamina", conducted by Bruno Walter which I really liked, falsely assumed it was from his 1942 Met recording, it's actually from 1946... I really don't like Walter in 1942 DG Met, too relentless, no feeling for the music.
> > > > >
> > > > > So no more one of my favourite conductors. I still feel I don't like Busch's DG as much as Mitropoulos... so I'll probably not buy it, but I need one - if not both - of Fricsay's Serails, and Fricsay Zauberflöte.
> > > > Na, don't need the Busch... Walter showed me that you can get much more out of this... *should have ofc realized it couldn't be the 1942 performance, since Pinza is singign Leporello here, sorry for the confusion. But still... you really see what Walter gets out of this.
> > > Not to forget what Mitropoulos gets out of thsi either...
> > Na, I don't need Fricsay's Zauberflöte or Serail... I don't like his conducting style (and also some of the singers)... I mean it's okay... but he is no Beecham, Karajan, E. Kleiber or Mitropoulos...
> >
> > So my favourite Mozart opera recordings are as follows:
> >
> > Serail: Beecham
> > Nozze: Karajan (I also have E. Kleiber, and I like it a lot, but I prefer Karajan here; it's a close second though)
> > DG: Mitropoulos
> > Cosi: Karajan
> > Zauberflöte: Beecham
> hmmm maybe I have to give a little more thought wrt Fricsay...

Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...

I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: cbc...@gmail.com (Gerard)
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 by: Gerard - Sat, 3 Jun 2023 15:08 UTC

Op zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:

> Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...
>
> I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan.... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.

What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: vladhoro...@hotmail.com (vhorowitz)
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 by: vhorowitz - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 03:00 UTC

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
> Op zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:
> > Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...
> >
> > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.
> What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!

Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the above might actually be true, haha.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: pnals...@gmail.com (Paul Alsing)
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 by: Paul Alsing - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 04:19 UTC

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:00:25 PM UTC-7, vhorowitz wrote:
> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
> > Op zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:
> > > Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno....
> > >
> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.
> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the above might actually be true, haha.

:>)

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: brisie2...@gmail.com (Brigitte)
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 by: Brigitte - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 05:57 UTC

vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
> > Op zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:
> > > Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno....
> > >
> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.
> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the above might actually be true, haha.

Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through in finding my favourite recordings of these operas...

Still wondering whether I need Walter's DG recording - it is actually quite good, even though a bit relentless at times...

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 06:10 UTC

vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
> > Op zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:
> > > Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno....
> > >
> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.
> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the above might actually be true, haha.

Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through in finding my favourite recordings of Mozart operas...

I think I was wrong about Walter's DG, it's actually really good, though a bit relentless at times, I might need it...

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 14:28 UTC

Marc S schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 08:11:01 UTC+2:
> vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
> > On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:
> > > Op zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:
> > > > Quick update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...
> > > >
> > > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need Karajan's Zauberflöte.
> > > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> > Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the above might actually be true, haha.
> Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through in finding my favourite recordings of Mozart operas...
>
> I think I was wrong about Walter's DG, it's actually really good, though a bit relentless at times, I might need it...

Okay guys I need it... now Walter is one of my favourite conductors as well..

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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 by: Owen Hartnett - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 15:10 UTC

On 2023-06-04 05:57:44 +0000, Brigitte said:

> vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
>> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:> > Op
>> zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:> > > Quick
>> update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...> > >>
>> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than
>> Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need
>> Karajan's Zauberflöte.> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2
>> minutes!
>> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have
>> to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then
>> taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then
>> putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider
>> for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the
>> above might actually be true, haha.
>
> Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through
> in finding my favourite recordings of these operas...
>
> Still wondering whether I need Walter's DG recording - it is actually
> quite good, even though a bit relentless at times...

So, are you really Brigitte, or are you Marc S? Not that there's
anything wrong with it.

-Owen

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 15:23 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 17:10:49 UTC+2:
> On 2023-06-04 05:57:44 +0000, Brigitte said:
>
> > vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
> >> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:> > Op
> >> zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:> > > Quick
> >> update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...> > >>
> >> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than
> >> Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need
> >> Karajan's Zauberflöte.> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2
> >> minutes!
> >> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have
> >> to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then
> >> taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then
> >> putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider
> >> for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the
> >> above might actually be true, haha.
> >
> > Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through
> > in finding my favourite recordings of these operas...
> >
> > Still wondering whether I need Walter's DG recording - it is actually
> > quite good, even though a bit relentless at times...
>
> So, are you really Brigitte, or are you Marc S? Not that there's
> anything wrong with it.
>
> -Owen

Actually I'm still deciding whether I want to be a female or a male ;D

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
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 by: Marc S - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 15:27 UTC

Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 17:10:49 UTC+2:
> On 2023-06-04 05:57:44 +0000, Brigitte said:
>
> > vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
> >> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:> > Op
> >> zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:> > > Quick
> >> update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...> > >>
> >> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than
> >> Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need
> >> Karajan's Zauberflöte.> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2
> >> minutes!
> >> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets tonight only to have
> >> to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then
> >> taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then
> >> putting them back. I’m putting in a claim with my insurance provider
> >> for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not really paying attention, or the
> >> above might actually be true, haha.
> >
> > Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through
> > in finding my favourite recordings of these operas...
> >
> > Still wondering whether I need Walter's DG recording - it is actually
> > quite good, even though a bit relentless at times...
>
> So, are you really Brigitte, or are you Marc S? Not that there's
> anything wrong with it.
>
> -Owen

Actually I'm still deciding whether I want to be a woman or a man ;D

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: marcs12...@gmail.com (Marc S)
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 by: Marc S - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 17:01 UTC

I think Walter Berry is not good btw... Janowitz neither... Gedda neither... actually most singers aren't, even the famous ones...

1960 Karajan is interesting... but Berry... and Waechter... eh...

1968 Karajan with Ghiaurov etc... also interesting... but not so good... I think I do not like Ghiaurov that much any more... same with Freni.

1970 Karajan also with Ghiaurov.... not so good as well...

These would be my picks after Mitropoulos and Walter I guess, but they are not nearly as good.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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 by: Pluted Pup - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 20:00 UTC

On Sun, 04 Jun 2023 08:23:54 -0700, Marc S wrote:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 17:10:49 UTC+2:
> > On 2023-06-04 05:57:44 +0000, Brigitte said:
> >
> > > vhorowitz schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
> > > > On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53???AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:> > Op
> > > > zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:> >> Quick
> > > > update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...> > >>
> > > > > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than
> > > > Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need
> > > > Karajan's Zauberflöte.> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2
> > > > minutes!
> > > > Yeah Marc S.... geez, I´ve bought six different sets tonight only to have
> > > > to return five of them already based on your recommendations, then
> > > > taking them back, then putting them back, and taking them back, then
> > > > putting them back. I´m putting in a claim with my insurance provider
> > > > for whiplash. ... Good thing I´m not really paying attention, or the
> > > > above might actually be true, haha.
> > >
> > > Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through
> > > in finding my favourite recordings of these operas...
> > >
> > > Still wondering whether I need Walter's DG recording - it is actually
> > > quite good, even though a bit relentless at times...
> >
> > So, are you really Brigitte, or are you Marc S? Not that there's
> > anything wrong with it.
> >
> > -Owen
>
> Actually I'm still deciding whether I want to be a female or a male ;D

Maybe if you make a call to our California state officials
they'll send you some hormones in the mail, no questions
asked.

Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .

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Subject: Re: Carlos Kleiber's favorite conductor was . . .
From: cbc...@gmail.com (Gerard)
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 by: Gerard - Sun, 4 Jun 2023 21:10 UTC

Op zondag 4 juni 2023 om 17:27:10 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:

> Actually I'm still deciding whether I want to be a woman or a man ;D

Trolls cannot decide about this. They are neither.

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