On 2023-06-04 15:23:54 +0000, Marc S said:

> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 17:10:49 UTC+2:
>> On 2023-06-04 05:57:44 +0000, Brigitte said:>> > vhorowitz schrieb am
>> Sonntag, 4. Juni 2023 um 05:00:25 UTC+2:
>>>> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 10:08:53 AM UTC-5, Gerard wrote:> > Op> >>
>>>> zaterdag 3 juni 2023 om 17:03:37 UTC+2 schreef Marc S:> > > Quick> >>
>>>> update: Fricsay sucks completely... and what an awful Papageno...> >
>>>> >>> >> > > I was very wrong about him being better in Zauberflöte than>
>>>> >> Karajan... Karajan's phrasing etc is much better... Okay... I need>
>>>> >> Karajan's Zauberflöte.> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2>
>>>> >> minutes!> >> Yeah Marc S…. geez, I’ve bought six different sets
>>>> tonight only to have> >> to return five of them already based on your
>>>> recommendations, then> >> taking them back, then putting them back, and
>>>> taking them back, then> >> putting them back. I’m putting in a claim
>>>> with my insurance provider> >> for whiplash. … Good thing I’m not
>>>> really paying attention, or the> >> above might actually be true,
>>>> haha.> >
>>> Haha ;D I just want to put you all through the hell I'm going through
>>> in finding my favourite recordings of these operas...> >> > Still
>>> wondering whether I need Walter's DG recording - it is actually> >
>>> quite good, even though a bit relentless at times...>> So, are you
>>> really Brigitte, or are you Marc S? Not that there's> anything wrong
>>> with it.>> -Owen
>
> Actually I'm still deciding whether I want to be a female or a male ;D

Why do you have to decide? Today you can be one or the other, or both,
or neither.

-Owen

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:08:53 AM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
>
> What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!

Every 2 seconds would be even better! ;-)

dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 5. Juni 2023 um 08:30:09 UTC+2:
> On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:08:53 AM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> >
> > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> Every 2 seconds would be even better! ;-)
>
> dk

Another update wrt another topic - not that anyone remembers or cares:

Somewhere in this ng I said sth stupid about Yishai Fleisher - him being "dangerous" - what nonsense... I had false infos about him, should have looked into it a bit further - my mistake.

I mean surely there are things you could criticise him for, but from what I've seen he also says a lot of things that are not wrong. At least from what I get he seems to be alright; to have a really well-grounded opinion about him, I would have to look into this further though.

On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 4:06:56 AM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:
> Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 5. Juni 2023 um 08:30:09 UTC+2:
> > On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:08:53 AM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> > >
> > > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> > Every 2 seconds would be even better! ;-)
> >
> > dk
> Another update wrt another topic - not that anyone remembers or cares:
>
> Somewhere in this ng I said sth stupid about Yishai Fleisher - him being "dangerous" - what nonsense... I had false infos about him, should have looked into it a bit further - my mistake.
>
> I mean surely there are things you could criticise him for, but from what I've seen he also says a lot of things that are not wrong. At least from what I get he seems to be alright; to have a really well-grounded opinion about him, I would have to look into this further though.

Hang on now…..you’re going OT of the OT!

vhorowitz schrieb am Montag, 5. Juni 2023 um 18:33:26 UTC+2:
> On Monday, June 5, 2023 at 4:06:56 AM UTC-5, Marc S wrote:
> > Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 5. Juni 2023 um 08:30:09 UTC+2:
> > > On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:08:53 AM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> > > >
> > > > What we need is quicker updates. Every 2 minutes!
> > > Every 2 seconds would be even better! ;-)
> > >
> > > dk
> > Another update wrt another topic - not that anyone remembers or cares:
> >
> > Somewhere in this ng I said sth stupid about Yishai Fleisher - him being "dangerous" - what nonsense... I had false infos about him, should have looked into it a bit further - my mistake.
> >
> > I mean surely there are things you could criticise him for, but from what I've seen he also says a lot of things that are not wrong. At least from what I get he seems to be alright; to have a really well-grounded opinion about him, I would have to look into this further though.
> Hang on now…..you’re going OT of the OT!

Okay, so back to OT:

Screw Mitropoulos... he has such a great cast, but he screws it all up... no fire in his DG... I mean more than in Krips', but that ain't saying much.... and honestly, he is just very bad... like I oftne have the feeling, he doesn't know what he is doing...

BTW Misha Horenstein once stated that out of the conductors in the USA Mitropoulos was one of the conductors Jascha Horenstein admired..

Now to Karajan... Screw Karajan's 1968 and 1970 DGs... Ghiaurov is not bad.... I mean he is good hehe... but Karajan fucks it all up... He is much better in the 1960 DG performance, but I just can't warm up to Waechter I think.... I'll listen again later... anyway, it seems as if Karajan took a wrong turn somewhere in the 60s... his characteristic "soft touch" is absent in the 1960s DG, but I feel I can sense it in the 1968 (from the little I've heard) and especially the 1970 DG performance.

Anyway... I don't need any of these recordings... really... Walter's DG is the best.

Siepi and Ghiaurov... as much as I like them, they really had bad luck with their conductors... Siepi: Krips, Furtwängler (2x), Mitropoulos... Furtwängler has fire, and he also seems to know what he is doing - as opposed to what i sense in mitropoulos - but the problem is: I don't like what he is doing; it's all lava, no firestorm...

I really have trouble thinking about another DG that I really like after Walter's made sense to me.... I should add that the performances that I sort of trashed above I still rate very highly; Furtwängler, Karajan, Mitropoulos would probably be my next picks, but they don't come close to Walter here imo...

Screw what I said... at least some of it:

Furtwängler is really good! All 3 of them! Very beautiful phrasing and singing, and also a lot of fire and lava! What nonsense did I say... My taste has changed quite a bit since I last listened to Furtwängler in DG.... or... in some way I have returned to the conductors I liked at the beginning of me listening to cm... E. Kleiber and Furtwängler... Karajan and Walter otoh I never thought of really highly until recently...

okay so my favourite conductor are: Beecham, Furtwängler, Karajan, E. Kleiber, Walter

Best Mozart Operas:

Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Karajan (1950), E. Kleiber
DG: Furtwängler (1950, 53, 54), Walter
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Beecham, Karajan (will have to relisten to Furtwängler)

Karajan's 1970 DG also has fire (and 1968 probably as well)... but in a way, it feels as if some attacks and some details are being smoothened out... like they never really grab me, compared to his earlier recordings, sometimes also I feel that Ghiaurov is going wild, while the orchestra just stays rather tame... ofc you also have this smooth Karajan style (which I like) in his early Nozze and Cosi, but it is very different I feel from his 1968 and 1970 style... there is much more fire in his earlier recordings.

Marc S schrieb am Montag, 5. Juni 2023 um 23:53:30 UTC+2:
> Screw what I said... at least some of it:
>
> Furtwängler is really good! All 3 of them! Very beautiful phrasing and singing, and also a lot of fire and lava! What nonsense did I say... My taste has changed quite a bit since I last listened to Furtwängler in DG... or... in some way I have returned to the conductors I liked at the beginning of me listening to cm... E. Kleiber and Furtwängler... Karajan and Walter otoh I never thought of really highly until recently...
>
> okay so my favourite conductor are: Beecham, Furtwängler, Karajan, E.. Kleiber, Walter
>
> Best Mozart Operas:
>
> Serail: Beecham
> Nozze: Karajan (1950), E. Kleiber
> DG: Furtwängler (1950, 53, 54), Walter
> Cosi: Karajan
> Zauberflöte: Beecham, Karajan (will have to relisten to Furtwängler)
>
> Karajan's 1970 DG also has fire (and 1968 probably as well)... but in a way, it feels as if some attacks and some details are being smoothened out.... like they never really grab me, compared to his earlier recordings, sometimes also I feel that Ghiaurov is going wild, while the orchestra just stays rather tame... ofc you also have this smooth Karajan style (which I like) in his early Nozze and Cosi, but it is very different I feel from his 1968 and 1970 style... there is much more fire in his earlier recordings.

noooo... Furtwängler just doesn't work... it's just too heavy...

Okay... I think I really thought enough about the different mozart recordings...

Serail: Beecham
Nozze: Karajan (1950)
DG: Walter
Cosi: Karajan
Zauberflöte: Beecham, Karajan

these are my favourites... only in Zauberflöte I can't seem to find a single favourite...

Favourite composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert
Favourite conductors: Beecham (also a newer a favourite), Karajan, E. Kleiber, Walter
Favourite pianists: Schnabel (about others I am not so sure yet; but there are ofc some that come to mind)
Favourite violinists: Kreisler, Szeryng (see above)
Favourite cellists: Fournier (see above)

Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 6. Juni 2023 um 01:55:05 UTC+2:
> Okay... I think I really thought enough about the different mozart recordings...
>
> Serail: Beecham
> Nozze: Karajan (1950)
> DG: Walter
> Cosi: Karajan
> Zauberflöte: Beecham, Karajan
> these are my favourites... only in Zauberflöte I can't seem to find a single favourite...
>
> Favourite composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert
> Favourite conductors: Beecham (also a newer a favourite), Karajan, E. Kleiber, Walter
> Favourite pianists: Schnabel (about others I am not so sure yet; but there are ofc some that come to mind)
> Favourite violinists: Kreisler, Szeryng (see above)
> Favourite cellists: Fournier (see above)

Just came by to let you guys know that I'm sure I do not need Bach; I don't like him nearly as much as Mozart, Beethoven or Schubert, but he is still in my top 5 (mainly for the piano, violin and cello solo stuff, of which I think I like the cello and violin stuff the most). Haydn moved up; he is also in my top 5... but I still think I prefer Bach to him... not too sure might change...

So, the only composers I need are: 1) Mozart, 2) Beethoven and 3) Schubert

Place 4 goes to Bach and Place 5 to Haydn. 6) Brahms and 7) Schoenberg... and with the other composers I just have too many problems to even care to rank them...

Add Richter and Volodos to favourite pianists...
Add Milstein and Herman to favourite violinists...

WRT cellists: I remember saying that I understood Arri in naming Casals... but I have to take this back, I do not like Casals at all; actually at the time I wrote it, I had my doubts about writing it... when I wrote it I remembered not liking him too much, but thinking my taste might have changed... which was obviously not the case. Should have been more careful here...

Has anyone heard Paul Burger in Bach?

https://www.discogs.com/release/23663363-Paul-Burger-3-J-S-Bach-Les-Suites-pour-violoncelle-seul-BWV-1007-1012

Or Peter Grümmer?

https://www.discogs.com/release/26460719-Peter-Gr%C3%BCmmer-J-S-Bach-Suiten-F%C3%BCr-Violoncello

Not cheap...

BTW I decided to keep the Maag Mozart 32, the slow movement is just really beautiful... since he now too has made a favourite recording of a piece I adore very much, I should add him to my favourite conductors; not just a favourite recording of this piece btw, but the only one which does it justice, as far as I know. And I think I'd also need to add Eschenbach and Frantz for their beautiful D 940 to my favourite pianists - thanks Dan.

Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 8. Juni 2023 um 16:42:40 UTC+2:
> Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 6. Juni 2023 um 01:55:05 UTC+2:
> > Okay... I think I really thought enough about the different mozart recordings...
> >
> > Serail: Beecham
> > Nozze: Karajan (1950)
> > DG: Walter
> > Cosi: Karajan
> > Zauberflöte: Beecham, Karajan
> > these are my favourites... only in Zauberflöte I can't seem to find a single favourite...
> >
> > Favourite composers: Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert
> > Favourite conductors: Beecham (also a newer a favourite), Karajan, E. Kleiber, Walter
> > Favourite pianists: Schnabel (about others I am not so sure yet; but there are ofc some that come to mind)
> > Favourite violinists: Kreisler, Szeryng (see above)
> > Favourite cellists: Fournier (see above)
> Just came by to let you guys know that I'm sure I do not need Bach; I don't like him nearly as much as Mozart, Beethoven or Schubert, but he is still in my top 5 (mainly for the piano, violin and cello solo stuff, of which I think I like the cello and violin stuff the most). Haydn moved up; he is also in my top 5... but I still think I prefer Bach to him... not too sure might change...
>
> So, the only composers I need are: 1) Mozart, 2) Beethoven and 3) Schubert
>
> Place 4 goes to Bach and Place 5 to Haydn. 6) Brahms and 7) Schoenberg... and with the other composers I just have too many problems to even care to rank them...
>
> Add Richter and Volodos to favourite pianists...
> Add Milstein and Herman to favourite violinists...
>
> WRT cellists: I remember saying that I understood Arri in naming Casals.... but I have to take this back, I do not like Casals at all; actually at the time I wrote it, I had my doubts about writing it... when I wrote it I remembered not liking him too much, but thinking my taste might have changed.... which was obviously not the case. Should have been more careful here...
>
> Has anyone heard Paul Burger in Bach?
>
> https://www.discogs.com/release/23663363-Paul-Burger-3-J-S-Bach-Les-Suites-pour-violoncelle-seul-BWV-1007-1012
>
> Or Peter Grümmer?
>
> https://www.discogs.com/release/26460719-Peter-Gr%C3%BCmmer-J-S-Bach-Suiten-F%C3%BCr-Violoncello
>
> Not cheap...
>
> BTW I decided to keep the Maag Mozart 32, the slow movement is just really beautiful... since he now too has made a favourite recording of a piece I adore very much, I should add him to my favourite conductors; not just a favourite recording of this piece btw, but the only one which does it justice, as far as I know. And I think I'd also need to add Eschenbach and Frantz for their beautiful D 940 to my favourite pianists - thanks Dan.

Hmmm... after thinking about it a little bit more, I have to say, I don't think I can rate Haydn above Bach... he does not even come close hehe... not even sure if I could rate him above Brahms or Schoenberg... but I still think of him highly, he's probably in my top 7 or top 8.

The gap in liking between Schubert and Bach seems also not as wide as between Schubert and Beethoven; maybe I still need Bach... have to give a little bit more thought...

Anyway, the composers that speak to me the most are Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Bach... also not too sure if I would rate Schubert above Bach... but for now it feels that way... as for the rest of the composers, I do not care too much for them; but surely Haydn, Brahms and Schoenberg would come to my mind when thinking about other favourites...

Screw Beethoven... I just can't deal with this guy... as I said somewhere else, my problem with him is similar to my problem with Mahler: Beethoven just too heroic, Mahler just too whiney... I feel that their music misses reflection (as does most music, and they actually fare quite well if I would consider composers besides Bach, Mozart and Schubert and maybe Brahms) ... The only stuff of Beethoven I really liked or thought I did, are some slow-movements of his symphonies, but even they have parts that go heavily against my aesthetic sense...

So for now my favourite composeres are Bach, Mozart, Schubert and maybe Brahms... have to give it a little more thought... But I'm really done with Beethoven now...

Screw Erich Kleiber too btw... I think his Beethoven 9th is still the best recorded, but as I don't care for Beethoven, I don't care for E. Kleiber; Kleiber's Mozart just really sucks. Honestly his Nozze is just god damn boring... one of the most overrated records in history or sth... sure, some good singers, but the conducting? Fucking sucks. Same for his Mozart 36 and 39 (at least from what I remember).

On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:18:17 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>
> But I'm really done with Beethoven now...

Serves him right! Congrats! ;-)

dk

Dan Koren schrieb am Sonntag, 11. Juni 2023 um 11:35:15 UTC+2:
> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:18:17 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > But I'm really done with Beethoven now...
> Serves him right! Congrats! ;-)
>
> dk

I still prefer him by far to Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninov, Chopin, Scriabin, Tatum etc ;)

I feel nauseous when listening to Rach Symphony 2 (I have to take back that I called it beautiful a while ago; it was a bit too well-meant) or his other stuff, same goes for Tchaikovsky, and also for Beethoven or Mahler symphonies... oh god, the awful 9th of Mahler... or the god awful Beethoven 7th; never liked the 3rd either... in a way the first movement of Beethoven's 7th reminds me of the first movement of Beethoven's 9th (of which btw I find the beginning very interesting and also the ending, but everything inbetween just sucks)... and I think Beethoven is harmonically(?) not so interesting; what I mean is the colour... he does not create interesting textures... in a way he seems a bit hmmm... crude and clumsy compared to Bach, Mozart, Schubert or late Brahms... and maybe even Schoenberg... I never liked Beethoven's sonatas and other piano solo stuff - some chamber was okay... but same also goes for Chopin hehe...

Dan Koren schrieb am Sonntag, 11. Juni 2023 um 11:35:15 UTC+2:
> On Sunday, June 11, 2023 at 12:18:17 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
> >
> > But I'm really done with Beethoven now...
>
> Serves him right! Congrats! ;-)
>
> dk

I was an idiot, forget everything I said; Beethoven is the only one who comes close to Mozart (at least in the few works I like of him). My favourite recording of the 9th is Kleiber's.

So my favourite two composers by far are Mozart and Beethoven.

Thanks for listening!

On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 2:13:33 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
>
> I was an idiot, forget everything I said;

That's easy. And you are still an idiot.

> Beethoven is the only one who comes
> close to Mozart (at least in the few works
> I like of him). My favourite recording of the
> 9th is Kleiber's.
>
> So my favourite two composers by far are
> Mozart and Beethoven.

They must feel so flattered!

dk