I just stumbled upon this bit of
wisdom hidden in a YouTube
comment.

"The problem today in classical music —
everything technical and cognitive;
mediated instead of immediate."

Thoughts and comments very
much appreciated.

dk

Op woensdag 7 juni 2023 om 22:57:51 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> I just stumbled upon this bit of
> wisdom hidden in a YouTube
> comment.
>
> "The problem today in classical music —
> everything technical and cognitive;
> mediated instead of immediate."
>
> Thoughts and comments very
> much appreciated.

"Mediated" isn't a problem in popular music. Classical music is losing its ecosystem in the West. Perhaps it will revive in CJK.

Henk

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 2:16:02 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:
> Op woensdag 7 juni 2023 om 22:57:51 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> > I just stumbled upon this bit of
> > wisdom hidden in a YouTube
> > comment.
> >
> > "The problem today in classical music —
> > everything technical and cognitive;
> > mediated instead of immediate."
> >
> > Thoughts and comments very
> > much appreciated.
>
> "Mediated" isn't a problem in popular music.

Different audience, different expectations.

> Classical music is losing its ecosystem
> in the West.

As a former US presidential adviser famously
said, "it is the economics, stupid!". Europe is
still doing better than the US, quite possibly
because the only sports distraction is soccer.

In the US people's brains are torn between
baseball, football, basketball, horse races
and mass shootings.

> Perhaps it will revive in CJK.

Classical music is thriving in East Asia.

The acronym may need to be changed
to KJC in view of the astounding number
of top classical artists from (South) Korea,
a nation of barely 50M people.

dk

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 2:25:52 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> In the US people's brains are torn between
> baseball, football, basketball, horse races
> and mass shootings.

And I should add golf and politics. It is a
never ending puzzle why people cannot
figure out trying to persuade others of
anything is a waste of time -- truly a
Moby Dick endeavor.

dk

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:

> It is a
> never ending puzzle why people cannot
> figure out trying to persuade others of
> anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> Moby Dick endeavor.
>
This is such mangled gibberish one wonders if you even knew what you were trying to say.

However, this incessant anxious posting of yours certainly is a waste of time.

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>
> > It is a
> > never ending puzzle why people cannot
> > figure out trying to persuade others of
> > anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> > Moby Dick endeavor.
>
> This is such mangled gibberish one wonders
> if you even knew what you were trying to say.

Only for you, the dumbest of the dumb to ever
post in r.m.c.r.

> However, this incessant anxious posting of
> yours certainly is a waste of time.

No one is forced to read it. You are obviously
contradicting yourself. Don't read, don't reply,
and you won't waste any of your valuable
holey Gouda time.

dk

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:35:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > > It is a
> > > never ending puzzle why people cannot
> > > figure out trying to persuade others of
> > > anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> > > Moby Dick endeavor.
> >
> > This is such mangled gibberish one wonders
> > if you even knew what you were trying to say.
>
> Only for you, the dumbest of the dumb to ever
> post in r.m.c.r.
>
> > However, this incessant anxious posting of
> > yours certainly is a waste of time.
>
> No one is forced to read it. You are obviously
> contradicting yourself. Don't read, don't reply,
> and you won't waste any of your valuable
> holey Gouda time.

One should also mention that a big part of the
problem today in classical music are people
like you who pretend they know everything
about music and feel compelled to lecture
everyone else.

Buzz off!

dk

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:37:14 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:35:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is a
> > > > never ending puzzle why people cannot
> > > > figure out trying to persuade others of
> > > > anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> > > > Moby Dick endeavor.
> > >
> > > This is such mangled gibberish one wonders
> > > if you even knew what you were trying to say.
> >
> > Only for you, the dumbest of the dumb to ever
> > post in r.m.c.r.
> >
> > > However, this incessant anxious posting of
> > > yours certainly is a waste of time.
> >
> > No one is forced to read it. You are obviously
> > contradicting yourself. Don't read, don't reply,
> > and you won't waste any of your valuable
> > holey Gouda time.
>
> One should also mention that a big part of the
> problem today in classical music are people
> like you who pretend they know everything
> about music and feel compelled to lecture
> everyone else.
>
> Buzz off!

脑残烂荷兰奶酪

dk

On 6/7/2023 6:14 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>
>> It is a
>> never ending puzzle why people cannot
>> figure out trying to persuade others of
>> anything is a waste of time -- truly a
>> Moby Dick endeavor.
>>
> This is such mangled gibberish one wonders if you even knew what you were trying to say.
>
> However, this incessant anxious posting of yours certainly is a waste of time.

If your time has been wasted it is because you chose to read what Dan wrote, and worse, bothering to reply.

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 4:25:28 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 6/7/2023 6:14 PM, Herman wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> >> It is a
> >> never ending puzzle why people cannot
> >> figure out trying to persuade others of
> >> anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> >> Moby Dick endeavor.
> >
> > This is such mangled gibberish one wonders
> > if you even knew what you were trying to say.
> > However, this incessant anxious posting of
> > yours certainly is a waste of time.
>
> If your time has been wasted it is because you
> chose to read what Dan wrote, and worse,
> bothering to reply.

Thank you! Herman's logic is in need of repair!
Maybe he should consider signing up for
clinical trials of Elon's Musk new brain
implant.

dk

Op donderdag 8 juni 2023 om 00:37:14 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:

> One should also mention that a big part of the
> problem today in classical music are people
> like you who pretend they know everything
> about music and feel compelled to lecture
> everyone else.
>
> Buzz off!
>
> dk

It good that you mention this. We are lucky that you are not like one of those pretenders (because you *really* know everything), and that your way of lecturing everyone is so modest and not compulsory at all.

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:37:14 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:35:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > >
> > > > It is a
> > > > never ending puzzle why people cannot
> > > > figure out trying to persuade others of
> > > > anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> > > > Moby Dick endeavor.
> > >
> > > This is such mangled gibberish one wonders
> > > if you even knew what you were trying to say.
> >
> > Only for you, the dumbest of the dumb to ever
> > post in r.m.c.r.
> >
> > > However, this incessant anxious posting of
> > > yours certainly is a waste of time.
> >
> > No one is forced to read it. You are obviously
> > contradicting yourself. Don't read, don't reply,
> > and you won't waste any of your valuable
> > holey Gouda time.
> feel compelled to lecture
> everyone else.

1 | Dan Koren | 132 | 284,798 | 55 | 39.40%

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 8:01:38 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:37:14 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:35:12 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 3:14:06 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:31:15 PM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It is a
> > > > > never ending puzzle why people cannot
> > > > > figure out trying to persuade others of
> > > > > anything is a waste of time -- truly a
> > > > > Moby Dick endeavor.
> > > >
> > > > This is such mangled gibberish one wonders
> > > > if you even knew what you were trying to say.
> > >
> > > Only for you, the dumbest of the dumb to ever
> > > post in r.m.c.r.
> > >
> > > > However, this incessant anxious posting of
> > > > yours certainly is a waste of time.
> > >
> > > No one is forced to read it. You are obviously
> > > contradicting yourself. Don't read, don't reply,
> > > and you won't waste any of your valuable
> > > holey Gouda time.
> >
> > feel compelled to lecture
> > everyone else.
>
> 1 | Dan Koren | 132 | 284,798 | 55 | 39.40%

NONE of my posts can be
reasonably described as
"LECTURES". Clearly you
don't know English.

dk

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 7:24:48 PM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> Op donderdag 8 juni 2023 om 00:37:14 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> > One should also mention that a big part of the
> > problem today in classical music are people
> > like you who pretend they know everything
> > about music and feel compelled to lecture
> > everyone else.
> >
> > Buzz off!
>
> It good that you mention this. We are lucky
> that you are not like one of those pretenders

Thank You!

> (because you *really* know everything), and
> that your way of lecturing everyone is so
> modest and not compulsory at all.

I never LECTURED anyone about anything. I
merely stated my personal opinions just
like everyone else.

Otherwise, can you provide even a single
example of a "lecture" I gave?

You are just as deranged and as much of
a liar are your friend Herman. This looks
like a trend in your country.

dk

I hesitate to enter what looks like another toxic thread, but the question interests me. There are a lot of aspects to this. One is to what extent the situation today is different from what it was at various points in the past; appearances can deceive. For instance, classical music in the US and Europe has been primarily dependent on philanthropy and government support for at least 100 years, yes? If so, part of the problem today is within those specific worlds rather than among the general public.

People bemoan the decline of music education, and no doubt this is a something, but I was a K12 student in the 50s and 60s, and at least in my public school experience, music ed was close to nonexistent.

I suspect one long term trend is a general decline in average attention span, first due to broadcast media, at least in the US, where the business model is all about audience size and attention. Obviously this problem has exacerbated a lot with the rise of digital media, which is "attention capitalism" on steroids.

Of course, when people bring up this topic it's often to complain about the evolution of classical composition (not so much performance) since, oh, WWI. This to me is not one question but a whole bundle. One aspect is the relationship between "modern" CM and popular idioms. This has always been a factor in public appreciation, and I agree it's become more attenuated in the past century. Some composers still reference the vernacular to some extent, but they don't seem to be that much more popular for it. A second factor is complexity, not only harmonic and structural but rhythmic. (But composers before the 20th c. were sometimes accused of being too abstruse -- so many notes, Herr Mozart!) Regarding the extent to which more modern music "communicates", one useful indicator is the evolution of film scores. The purpose of film music is entirely communicative, yes? And there has certainly been a lot of movement since the lush romantic scores of the 30s and 40s. A lot of contemporary film music is at least somewhat nontonal, and pure sound has made inroads too. Of course, there is still a big gap between most contemporary concert and film music. (My rough sense is that films have caught up with, say, Bartok but not post-WWII developments. And some films have used Bartok! Like the wonderful "Being John Malkovich".)

This is a long rumination. My main point is that there are so many angles to this issue it's unlikely that any single one will be decisive.

As I write this I'm listening to the new recording of Kapustin piano music, set for jazz trio by Frank Dupree. Complete delight and unabashedly populist.

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> I just stumbled upon this bit of
> wisdom hidden in a YouTube
> comment.
>
> "The problem today in classical music —
> everything technical and cognitive;
> mediated instead of immediate."
>
> Thoughts and comments very
> much appreciated.
>
> dk

In article <02894a2f-b64e-4d6d-b0f0-07c2e5c23be4n@googlegroups.com>,
Peter <dormanp@gmail.com> wrote:
>People bemoan the decline of music education, and no doubt this
>is a something, but I was a K12 student in the 50s and 60s, and
>at least in my public school experience, music ed was close to
>nonexistent.

There've been various ups & downs on this in various places. Some
of the "ups" are recent. And there's still a pretty good lobby for
music education. Just not sure how much of it will continue focusing
on the Victorian era, no matter how much some people here wish
that'd never ended....

Rather than bemoan a golden age of music ed, which was not especially golden, I'd like to see more forward-looking ideas for what it would be possible to do. I made sure I gave a brief shout out (pp. 84-85) to the Finnish music ed system in my book on climate change (Alligators in the Arctic and How to Avoid Them) -- now *that* would make a difference. But we could also do so much more in other aspects of education.....

On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 1:10:27 PM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <02894a2f-b64e-4d6d...@googlegroups.com>,
> Peter <dor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >People bemoan the decline of music education, and no doubt this
> >is a something, but I was a K12 student in the 50s and 60s, and
> >at least in my public school experience, music ed was close to
> >nonexistent.
> There've been various ups & downs on this in various places. Some
> of the "ups" are recent. And there's still a pretty good lobby for
> music education. Just not sure how much of it will continue focusing
> on the Victorian era, no matter how much some people here wish
> that'd never ended....

In article <c45676f4-c363-4b18-9f44-e8330e4d8fe3n@googlegroups.com>,
Peter <dormanp@gmail.com> wrote:
>Rather than bemoan a golden age of music ed, which was not especially
>golden, I'd like to see more forward-looking ideas for what it would
>be possible to do.

Sounds like good advice in a variety of arenas.

Would someone please tell me what the problem is. Is it just an American problem?

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 3:10:01 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> Would someone please tell me what the problem is. Is it just an American problem?

It seems to that there is a Tsunami facing the world as time progresses. It is that generally speaking, that the mass consciousness of humanity is moving farther and farther away from subtlety, from a fineness of being, feeling and perceiving that was more prevalent in simpler, quieter times. Everything is sped up and noisier in order to capture and sustain the attention of younger generations who can use computers and cell phones with ease but can’t do math very well without them.

Also, it seems to be progressing not at an incremental pace but a geometric pace. Everything from current rock music to louder, faster action movies to all the talk of artificial intelligence all show that developing patience, the ability to go within and contemplate life are on the wane.

When these inherent abilities are covered over habitually it’s difficult to get them back again.

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 4:50:59 AM UTC-7, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 3:10:01 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > Would someone please tell me what the problem is. Is it just an American problem?
> It seems to that there is a Tsunami facing the world as time progresses. It is that generally speaking, that the mass consciousness of humanity is moving farther and farther away from subtlety, from a fineness of being, feeling and perceiving that was more prevalent in simpler, quieter times. Everything is sped up and noisier in order to capture and sustain the attention of younger generations who can use computers and cell phones with ease but can’t do math very well without them.
>
> Also, it seems to be progressing not at an incremental pace but a geometric pace. Everything from current rock music to louder, faster action movies to all the talk of artificial intelligence all show that developing patience, the ability to go within and contemplate life are on the wane.
>
> When these inherent abilities are covered over habitually it’s difficult to get them back again.

Hasn't humanity put itself of a treadmill?

Ever heard of the book FUTURE SHOCK?

In article <9d1e111c-29c3-457b-8787-f06e84a5ba1en@googlegroups.com>,
JohnGavin <dagdern@gmail.com> wrote:
>It is that generally speaking, that the mass consciousness of
>humanity is moving farther and farther away from subtlety, from a
>fineness of being, feeling and perceiving that was more prevalent
>in simpler, quieter times.

Or much more simply, the arts are now expected to "fund themselves"
via commerce. The US is "ahead" on this curve.

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 10:39:32 AM UTC-7, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> In article <9d1e111c-29c3-457b...@googlegroups.com>,
> JohnGavin <dag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >It is that generally speaking, that the mass consciousness of
> >humanity is moving farther and farther away from subtlety, from a
> >fineness of being, feeling and perceiving that was more prevalent
> >in simpler, quieter times.
> Or much more simply, the arts are now expected to "fund themselves"
> via commerce. The US is "ahead" on this curve.

- For it cannot be emphasized too strongly that art, as such, does not "pay," to use an American expression--at least, not in the beginning--and that the art that has to pay its own way is apt to become vitiated and cheap.

Dvorak

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:50:59 PM UTC+1, JohnGavin wrote:
> On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 3:10:01 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:
> > Would someone please tell me what the problem is. Is it just an American problem?
> It seems to that there is a Tsunami facing the world as time progresses. It is that generally speaking, that the mass consciousness of humanity is moving farther and farther away from subtlety, from a fineness of being, feeling and perceiving that was more prevalent in simpler, quieter times. Everything is sped up and noisier in order to capture and sustain the attention of younger generations who can use computers and cell phones with ease but can’t do math very well without them.
>
> Also, it seems to be progressing not at an incremental pace but a geometric pace. Everything from current rock music to louder, faster action movies to all the talk of artificial intelligence all show that developing patience, the ability to go within and contemplate life are on the wane.
>
> When these inherent abilities are covered over habitually it’s difficult to get them back again.

I just don’t know how to assess whether what you say is true or not..

On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 1:57:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> I just stumbled upon this bit of
> wisdom hidden in a YouTube
> comment.
>
> "The problem today in classical music —
> everything technical and cognitive;
> mediated instead of immediate."
>
> Thoughts and comments very
> much appreciated.
>
> dk

Could the problem today with classical music be that we have become musical savages?:

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/-8nBG6EjHOA