https://youtu.be/6RWfJR31XwU

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 1:08:25 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> https://youtu.be/6RWfJR31XwU

I'm not much interested in the Goldberg's right now, but I listened to Sokolov's AoF recently and thought it was pretty poor -- gratuitous piano effects and unimaginative juxtaposition of the voices.

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 7:58:21 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 1:08:25 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > https://youtu.be/6RWfJR31XwU
>
> I'm not much interested in the Goldberg's right now, but I
> listened to Sokolov's AoF recently and thought it was pretty
> poor -- gratuitous piano effects and unimaginative juxtaposition
> of the voices.

Can you clarify for the rest of us the meaning of the phrase
"gratuitous piano effects" and provide a few examples in the
recording? It would also be useful to hear some examples of
the "unimaginative juxtaposition of the voices". Maybe also
provide some examples of better juxtaposition of the voices?

Otherwise you are just talking with yourself, just like so many
others in this ng.

The deeper meaning of YT is that one is no longer allowed to
dance about architecture. Provide tangible examples others
can hear -- or retire to the same cave as Melmoth and Oscar.

dk

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:51:45 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
>
>
> Otherwise you are just talking with yourself, just like so many
> others in this ng.
>
Of which DK is the monumental example obviously, occupying about half of this group's bandwidth talking to himself - ie posting blind youtube links.
This vicious response to Mandryka's completely okay admission of not being that much into Sokolov's Bach is yet another example of the rampant disease on this ng called DK Narcissism.
If you don't bow to his crap you;re a caveman of an antisemite, take your pick.
Also, there is no 'deeper meaning' to youtube, other than DK having an apparent financial interest in mother company Google. Youtube is millions of vids etc a day.

On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 11:45:21 PM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:51:45 AM UTC+2, Dan Koren wrote:
> >
> > Otherwise you are just talking with yourself, just like so many
> > others in this ng.
> >
> Of which DK is the monumental example obviously, occupying
> about half of this group's bandwidth talking to himself -

Yet another paranoid libelous lie from Homo Harminius Batavicus
Horribilis. There is no fixed or allocated bandwidth for this group,
and there are no quotas either. Nothing and nobody prevents you
or anyone else from posting as much as one likes. Liar!

> ie posting blind youtube links.

Yet another paranoid libelous lie from Homo Harminius Batavicus
Horribilis, a self described linguist who does not even understand
the meaning of a "blind link". Blind links are links to websites that
cannot be identified from the link or the URL. Links to YouTube
can be clearly identified from their URLs, they are not blind. It
seems the blindness (and the dumbness) are entirely on your
side.

> This vicious response to Mandryka's completely okay admission
> of not being that much into Sokolov's Bach is yet another example

My post was not "vicious", and it was not about Mandryka's
statement of not being much into Sokolov's Bach. I asked
for specific examples to support specific critiques so we
can all understand what he was talking about. You did not
quote that part of my reply, because you are bent on making
up "facts" by burying the evidence.

Here is what I wrote:

Can you clarify for the rest of us the meaning of the phrase
"gratuitous piano effects" and provide a few examples in the
recording? It would also be useful to hear some examples of
the "unimaginative juxtaposition of the voices". Maybe also
provide some examples of better juxtaposition of the voices?

> of the rampant disease on this ng called DK Narcissism.

What an idiocy! Can you read at all?

> If you don't bow to his crap you;re a caveman of an antisemite,
> take your pick.

Well, it seems you picked both for yourself!

> Also, there is no 'deeper meaning' to youtube, other than DK
> having an apparent financial interest in mother company
> Google. Youtube is millions of vids etc a day.

YouTube has clearly changed and expanded the ways people
can find music and listen to music. If you don't think that is
significant, you must be really be living at the bottom of a
salt mine pit.

The suggestion I have some "financial interest" in YouTube
is a deliberate, libelous lie, and I will sue in a Dutch court
for libel.

I never marketed or sold my opinions, I never marketed
anyone else's, and I never took ro received one penny
for my thoughts.

Only a Homo Harminius Batavicus Horribilis with a
holey Gouda of a brain could make such claims.

dk

Have a listen to cpt 13 Dan. The dynamic variation - which is extreme sometimes - serves no purpose, it is gratuitous and IMO worse than that - it is ugly and attention seeking. I would say the same for the touch he uses - especially the more goofy sounding staccato touch. And the voices is very unimaginatively treated - they basically support each other always, they’re never really in tension with each other.

I just chose cpt 13 at random, from memory the same sort of thing goes on throughout.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 8:17:57 AM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Have a listen to cpt 13 Dan. The dynamic variation - which is extreme sometimes - serves no purpose, it is gratuitous and IMO worse than that - it is ugly and attention seeking. I would say the same for the touch he uses - especially the more goofy sounding staccato touch. And the voices is very unimaginatively treated - they basically support each other always, they’re never really in tension with each other.
>
>
> I just chose cpt 13 at random, from memory the same sort of thing goes on throughout.

By the way, while we’re on AoF, let me recommend enthusiastically Sergio Vartolo’s recording.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 8:17:57 AM UTC+1, Mandryka wrote:
> Have a listen to cpt 13 Dan. The dynamic variation - which is extreme sometimes - serves no purpose, it is gratuitous and IMO worse than that - it is ugly and attention seeking. I would say the same for the touch he uses - especially the more goofy sounding staccato touch. And the voices is very unimaginatively treated - they basically support each other always, they’re never really in tension with each other.
>
>
> I just chose cpt 13 at random, from memory the same sort of thing goes on throughout.

Sorry, that’s my bad - I should have said cpt 12a, not 13. But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:17:57 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> Have a listen to cpt 13 Dan.

Pronto.

> The dynamic variation - which is extreme sometimes -

Nothing wrong with high dynamics. Would you rather
have the audience slumber in their seats?

> serves no purpose, it is gratuitous and IMO worse than

Is there ever a "purpose" in music performance? And if
there were one, who is going to define and enforce it,
if not the performer?

> that - it is ugly and attention seeking. I would say the
> same for the touch he uses - especially the more
> goofy sounding staccato touch.

As you and probably everyone else know, the score of
DKdF is completely devoid of any dynamics markings.
How is one supposed to understand your statements
absent any frame of reference? What you are saying
about Sokolov's touch and interpretation amounts to
nothing more than it disagrees with your conception
of the work, which no one can hear. Your argument is
entirely self-referential.
You are obviously entitled to like or dislike a performance
for any reason, or even for no reason at all. You could
have just said you did not like it and left it that. Trying
to objectivise one's personal opinions is intellectually
dishonest and (self-) deceitful.

> And the voices is very unimaginatively treated -

Please provide an actual tangible listenable example
of a more "imaginative" performance? Otherwise we
have no idea what you are talking about.

> they basically support each other always,

Not necessarily bad or wrong.

> they’re never really in tension with each other.

Not necessarily bad or wrong. And how do you
detect or measure "tension"?

dk

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:19:11 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> By the way, while we’re on AoF, let me recommend
> enthusiastically Sergio Vartolo’s recording.

You are comparing piano and harpsichord
performances against one another? That
is insane! As far as I am concerned, you
have lost the last bit of credibility as a
classical music listener.

dk

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:22:09 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
>
> Sorry, that’s my bad - I should have said cpt 12a, not 13.

Doesn't matter.

> But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly
> it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!

Please provide an example of a "better" piano
performance, according to your taste.

Thx

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:02:22 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:22:09 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > Sorry, that’s my bad - I should have said cpt 12a, not 13.
> Doesn't matter.
> > But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly
> > it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!
> Please provide an example of a "better" piano
> performance, according to your taste.
>
> Thx

For a better piano performance, try Walter Riemer.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:32:11 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:02:22 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:22:09 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> >
> > > But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly
> > > it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!
> >
> > Please provide an example of a "better" piano
> > performance, according to your taste.
>
> For a better piano performance, try Walter Riemer.

?!? He plays a "fortepiano", not a real piano!
This is not a legitimate comparison. Please
provide a link to a piano performance.

dk

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 1:21:45 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:32:11 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:02:22 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:22:09 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > >
> > > > But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly
> > > > it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!
> > >
> > > Please provide an example of a "better" piano
> > > performance, according to your taste.
> >
> > For a better piano performance, try Walter Riemer.
> ?!? He plays a "fortepiano", not a real piano!
> This is not a legitimate comparison. Please
> provide a link to a piano performance.
>
> dk

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Ron-Lepinat/dp/B002HR5ZDG/ref=sr_1_1?crid=12O6QRDBM6BI&keywords=B002HR5ZDG&qid=1686401981&sprefix=b002hr5zdg%2Caps%2C71&sr=8-1

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 6:00:24 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 1:21:45 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:32:11 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:02:22 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:22:09 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly
> > > > > it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!
> > > >
> > > > Please provide an example of a "better" piano
> > > > performance, according to your taste.
> > >
> > > For a better piano performance, try Walter Riemer.
> > ?!? He plays a "fortepiano", not a real piano!
> >
> > This is not a legitimate comparison. Please
> > provide a link to a piano performance.
>
> https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Ron-Lepinat/dp/B002HR5ZDG/

Not listenable. Can you upload some snippets?
Or provide a link to a listenable recording?

Thx

Op zondag 11 juni 2023 om 00:17:23 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
>
> Not listenable. Can you upload some snippets?
> Or provide a link to a listenable recording?
>
> Thx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77Ty4VzYPg

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 3:24:27 PM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> Op zondag 11 juni 2023 om 00:17:23 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> >
> > Not listenable. Can you upload some snippets?
> > Or provide a link to a listenable recording?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77Ty4VzYPg

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mr8Q9NWqaZoIuE_uUrnzUE-CtUYe4pbqg

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 3:37:35 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 3:24:27 PM UTC-7, Gerard wrote:
> > Op zondag 11 juni 2023 om 00:17:23 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
> > >
> > > Not listenable. Can you upload some snippets?
> > > Or provide a link to a listenable recording?
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w77Ty4VzYPg
>
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_mr8Q9NWqaZoIuE_uUrnzUE-CtUYe4pbqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-AHzUKWbHg

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 3:17:23 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 6:00:24 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 1:21:45 PM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:32:11 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:02:22 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 12:22:09 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > But I’m listening to cpt 13 now and honestly
> > > > > > it’s no better really - HORRIBLE!
> > > > >
> > > > > Please provide an example of a "better" piano
> > > > > performance, according to your taste.
> > > >
> > > > For a better piano performance, try Walter Riemer.
> > > ?!? He plays a "fortepiano", not a real piano!
> > >
> > > This is not a legitimate comparison. Please
> > > provide a link to a piano performance.
> >
> > https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Ron-Lepinat/dp/B002HR5ZDG/
>
> Not listenable. Can you upload some snippets?
> Or provide a link to a listenable recording?

Since I cannot find on line even the slightest
downloadable listenable snippet of Lepinat's
playing, here is a link to Zhu Xiao Mei's KdF
as an exemplary balanced traditional reading
of the work.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kRjg6h3WZAtElNCDiof-GmlcP8D-zbCcA

It can serve as a reference point for serious
discussion of KdF performances. Perhaps
Mandryka can use it to point out strengths
and weaknesses (in his opinion) in other
performances.

dk