Hi, I wondered if this knowledgeable group might have any insights or information on this. I recently purchased and downloaded a recording of Szell conducting Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, and Mozart, Symphony No. 41, Remastered, Label: Epic, labeled as "release date 20th July 2018," Cleveland Orchestra. There is a mistake, or a flubbed note, in the horn at 2:12 of the first movement of the Beethoven (the "horn call" that leads to the second theme in the repeat of the exposition).

As far as I know this is supposed to be the same performance (October 1963?) that has been issued many times before, and when I go to a previous version, for instance, "George Szell conducts Beethoven," there is no mistake.

Could anybody please help me understand what is going on? Is this a known defect? Would I be correct in thinking that the Columbia engineers corrected an error, back when, that crept into a new remastering and got past the Sony engineers? If there is a CD version of this remastering, is it on the CD?

If I should provide further specifics on the product please let me know, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to post a link to the vendor.

Apologies if this has been discussed before; I did a search but didn't find anything. Thanks!

Mark

p.s. Here it is on Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/track/49ZYgvlEjyicz9fJVb6DO2
(defective)

versus

https://open.spotify.com/album/0KoRsNpzbfKRsqi8S9ZWX7
(not defective)

at 2:12 in each case.

On 6/9/23 11:06 PM, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> Hi, I wondered if this knowledgeable group might have any insights or
> information on this. I recently purchased and downloaded a recording
> of Szell conducting Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, and Mozart, Symphony
> No. 41, Remastered, Label: Epic, labeled as "release date 20th July
> 2018," Cleveland Orchestra. There is a mistake, or a flubbed note, in
> the horn at 2:12 of the first movement of the Beethoven (the "horn
> call" that leads to the second theme in the repeat of the
> exposition).

Can confirm.

> As far as I know this is supposed to be the same performance (October
> 1963?) that has been issued many times before, and when I go to a
> previous version, for instance, "George Szell conducts Beethoven,"
> there is no mistake.

Discogs says October 11 & 25, 1963 for the recording date.

> Could anybody please help me understand what is going on? Is this a
> known defect? Would I be correct in thinking that the Columbia
> engineers corrected an error, back when, that crept into a new
> remastering and got past the Sony engineers? If there is a CD version
> of this remastering, is it on the CD?

Sounds like the reissue producers asked for the specific coupling
masters that, as you say, didn't have the correction other issues enjoyed.

> If I should provide further specifics on the product please let me
> know, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to post a link to
> the vendor.

Look for the Beethoven 5/Mozart 41 album coupling on spotify if one
wants to hear it. The versions I heard on YouTube didn't have the
mistake but I didn't notice any uploads that claimed to be the original
Epic lp.

> Apologies if this has been discussed before; I did a search but
> didn't find anything. Thanks!

I can speculate that Peter Schickele heard it. This is the spot where
Bobby Corno flubs the horn part in the PDQ Bach "New Horizons in Musical
Appreciation" performance.

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 10:43:06 AM UTC-4, mINE109 wrote:
> On 6/9/23 11:06 PM, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> > Hi, I wondered if this knowledgeable group might have any insights or
> > information on this. I recently purchased and downloaded a recording
> > of Szell conducting Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, and Mozart, Symphony
> > No. 41, Remastered, Label: Epic, labeled as "release date 20th July
> > 2018," Cleveland Orchestra. There is a mistake, or a flubbed note, in
> > the horn at 2:12 of the first movement of the Beethoven (the "horn
> > call" that leads to the second theme in the repeat of the
> > exposition).
> Can confirm.
> > As far as I know this is supposed to be the same performance (October
> > 1963?) that has been issued many times before, and when I go to a
> > previous version, for instance, "George Szell conducts Beethoven,"
> > there is no mistake.
> Discogs says October 11 & 25, 1963 for the recording date.
> > Could anybody please help me understand what is going on? Is this a
> > known defect? Would I be correct in thinking that the Columbia
> > engineers corrected an error, back when, that crept into a new
> > remastering and got past the Sony engineers? If there is a CD version
> > of this remastering, is it on the CD?
> Sounds like the reissue producers asked for the specific coupling
> masters that, as you say, didn't have the correction other issues enjoyed..
> > If I should provide further specifics on the product please let me
> > know, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to post a link to
> > the vendor.
> Look for the Beethoven 5/Mozart 41 album coupling on spotify if one
> wants to hear it. The versions I heard on YouTube didn't have the
> mistake but I didn't notice any uploads that claimed to be the original
> Epic lp.
> > Apologies if this has been discussed before; I did a search but
> > didn't find anything. Thanks!
> I can speculate that Peter Schickele heard it. This is the spot where
> Bobby Corno flubs the horn part in the PDQ Bach "New Horizons in Musical
> Appreciation" performance.

:-) "Thanks for setting me straight about that!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vHpeUO5mw&t=2m15s

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:04:01 AM UTC-4, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 10:43:06 AM UTC-4, mINE109 wrote:
> > On 6/9/23 11:06 PM, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> > > Hi, I wondered if this knowledgeable group might have any insights or
> > > information on this. I recently purchased and downloaded a recording
> > > of Szell conducting Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, and Mozart, Symphony
> > > No. 41, Remastered, Label: Epic, labeled as "release date 20th July
> > > 2018," Cleveland Orchestra. There is a mistake, or a flubbed note, in
> > > the horn at 2:12 of the first movement of the Beethoven (the "horn
> > > call" that leads to the second theme in the repeat of the
> > > exposition).
> > Can confirm.
> > > As far as I know this is supposed to be the same performance (October
> > > 1963?) that has been issued many times before, and when I go to a
> > > previous version, for instance, "George Szell conducts Beethoven,"
> > > there is no mistake.
> > Discogs says October 11 & 25, 1963 for the recording date.
> > > Could anybody please help me understand what is going on? Is this a
> > > known defect? Would I be correct in thinking that the Columbia
> > > engineers corrected an error, back when, that crept into a new
> > > remastering and got past the Sony engineers? If there is a CD version
> > > of this remastering, is it on the CD?
> > Sounds like the reissue producers asked for the specific coupling
> > masters that, as you say, didn't have the correction other issues enjoyed.
> > > If I should provide further specifics on the product please let me
> > > know, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to post a link to
> > > the vendor.
> > Look for the Beethoven 5/Mozart 41 album coupling on spotify if one
> > wants to hear it. The versions I heard on YouTube didn't have the
> > mistake but I didn't notice any uploads that claimed to be the original
> > Epic lp.
> > > Apologies if this has been discussed before; I did a search but
> > > didn't find anything. Thanks!
> > I can speculate that Peter Schickele heard it. This is the spot where
> > Bobby Corno flubs the horn part in the PDQ Bach "New Horizons in Musical
> > Appreciation" performance.
> :-) "Thanks for setting me straight about that!"
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vHpeUO5mw&t=2m15s

I have the (c)2016 SACD Japan hybrid disc, transferred by Andreas Meyer & Co. Presumably, this is the same transfer used in 16/44 for the later Szell box. There is definitely a horn clam, although it seems to be a fraction after 2:15.

DH

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:44:57 PM UTC-4, drh8h wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:04:01 AM UTC-4, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 10:43:06 AM UTC-4, mINE109 wrote:
> > > On 6/9/23 11:06 PM, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> > > > Hi, I wondered if this knowledgeable group might have any insights or
> > > > information on this. I recently purchased and downloaded a recording
> > > > of Szell conducting Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, and Mozart, Symphony
> > > > No. 41, Remastered, Label: Epic, labeled as "release date 20th July
> > > > 2018," Cleveland Orchestra. There is a mistake, or a flubbed note, in
> > > > the horn at 2:12 of the first movement of the Beethoven (the "horn
> > > > call" that leads to the second theme in the repeat of the
> > > > exposition).
> > > Can confirm.
> > > > As far as I know this is supposed to be the same performance (October
> > > > 1963?) that has been issued many times before, and when I go to a
> > > > previous version, for instance, "George Szell conducts Beethoven,"
> > > > there is no mistake.
> > > Discogs says October 11 & 25, 1963 for the recording date.
> > > > Could anybody please help me understand what is going on? Is this a
> > > > known defect? Would I be correct in thinking that the Columbia
> > > > engineers corrected an error, back when, that crept into a new
> > > > remastering and got past the Sony engineers? If there is a CD version
> > > > of this remastering, is it on the CD?
> > > Sounds like the reissue producers asked for the specific coupling
> > > masters that, as you say, didn't have the correction other issues enjoyed.
> > > > If I should provide further specifics on the product please let me
> > > > know, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to post a link to
> > > > the vendor.
> > > Look for the Beethoven 5/Mozart 41 album coupling on spotify if one
> > > wants to hear it. The versions I heard on YouTube didn't have the
> > > mistake but I didn't notice any uploads that claimed to be the original
> > > Epic lp.
> > > > Apologies if this has been discussed before; I did a search but
> > > > didn't find anything. Thanks!
> > > I can speculate that Peter Schickele heard it. This is the spot where
> > > Bobby Corno flubs the horn part in the PDQ Bach "New Horizons in Musical
> > > Appreciation" performance.
> > :-) "Thanks for setting me straight about that!"
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vHpeUO5mw&t=2m15s
> I have the (c)2016 SACD Japan hybrid disc, transferred by Andreas Meyer & Co. Presumably, this is the same transfer used in 16/44 for the later Szell box. There is definitely a horn clam, although it seems to be a fraction after 2:15.
>
> DH

OK thanks. Apparently the timings are slightly different between the products. I am hearing this blooper on the fourth note of the horn call. So, it is three short notes followed by three long notes. B flat, B flat, B flat, followed by E flat, F, B flat. It's on the E flat. Which is the "later Szell box" that you refer to? It's not this one, is it?

https://www.amazon.com/George-Conducts-Beethoven-Honies-Overtures/dp/B00EC0VVRA/

Because when I play the track on Spotify that appears to come from it (same cover art), to me it sounds correct. It doesn't have the same blooper that's on the track I downloaded.

Mark

On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 5:43:47 PM UTC-4, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:44:57 PM UTC-4, drh8h wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 11:04:01 AM UTC-4, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> > > On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 10:43:06 AM UTC-4, mINE109 wrote:
> > > > On 6/9/23 11:06 PM, Mark DeBellis wrote:
> > > > > Hi, I wondered if this knowledgeable group might have any insights or
> > > > > information on this. I recently purchased and downloaded a recording
> > > > > of Szell conducting Beethoven, Symphony No. 5, and Mozart, Symphony
> > > > > No. 41, Remastered, Label: Epic, labeled as "release date 20th July
> > > > > 2018," Cleveland Orchestra. There is a mistake, or a flubbed note, in
> > > > > the horn at 2:12 of the first movement of the Beethoven (the "horn
> > > > > call" that leads to the second theme in the repeat of the
> > > > > exposition).
> > > > Can confirm.
> > > > > As far as I know this is supposed to be the same performance (October
> > > > > 1963?) that has been issued many times before, and when I go to a
> > > > > previous version, for instance, "George Szell conducts Beethoven,"
> > > > > there is no mistake.
> > > > Discogs says October 11 & 25, 1963 for the recording date.
> > > > > Could anybody please help me understand what is going on? Is this a
> > > > > known defect? Would I be correct in thinking that the Columbia
> > > > > engineers corrected an error, back when, that crept into a new
> > > > > remastering and got past the Sony engineers? If there is a CD version
> > > > > of this remastering, is it on the CD?
> > > > Sounds like the reissue producers asked for the specific coupling
> > > > masters that, as you say, didn't have the correction other issues enjoyed.
> > > > > If I should provide further specifics on the product please let me
> > > > > know, but I didn't know if it would be appropriate to post a link to
> > > > > the vendor.
> > > > Look for the Beethoven 5/Mozart 41 album coupling on spotify if one
> > > > wants to hear it. The versions I heard on YouTube didn't have the
> > > > mistake but I didn't notice any uploads that claimed to be the original
> > > > Epic lp.
> > > > > Apologies if this has been discussed before; I did a search but
> > > > > didn't find anything. Thanks!
> > > > I can speculate that Peter Schickele heard it. This is the spot where
> > > > Bobby Corno flubs the horn part in the PDQ Bach "New Horizons in Musical
> > > > Appreciation" performance.
> > > :-) "Thanks for setting me straight about that!"
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0vHpeUO5mw&t=2m15s
> > I have the (c)2016 SACD Japan hybrid disc, transferred by Andreas Meyer & Co. Presumably, this is the same transfer used in 16/44 for the later Szell box. There is definitely a horn clam, although it seems to be a fraction after 2:15.
> >
> > DH
> OK thanks. Apparently the timings are slightly different between the products. I am hearing this blooper on the fourth note of the horn call. So, it is three short notes followed by three long notes. B flat, B flat, B flat, followed by E flat, F, B flat. It's on the E flat. Which is the "later Szell box" that you refer to? It's not this one, is it?
>
> https://www.amazon.com/George-Conducts-Beethoven-Honies-Overtures/dp/B00EC0VVRA/
>
> Because when I play the track on Spotify that appears to come from it (same cover art), to me it sounds correct. It doesn't have the same blooper that's on the track I downloaded.
>
> Mark
Never mind, I think I have answered my own question. You are, I think, referring to the 106-CD box that appeared in 2018 and was reissued more recently. Thanks for that information.

I'm surprised that they let this through when they did the transfer, as you say, in 2016. Especially when the producers were careful to get it right the first time around.

Mark