On 11/7/2021 4:18 PM, trotsky wrote:
> On 11/7/2021 2:39 PM, moviePig wrote:
>> On 11/7/2021 2:33 PM, trotsky wrote:
>>> On 11/3/2021 9:26 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>> On 11/3/2021 8:40 AM, Otto J. Makela wrote:
>>>>> moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think "well done overall" sums up my reaction, too ...at least as
>>>>>> far as recreating the book's ambience. (This was an Art Director's
>>>>>> movie, and I thought they pulled it off.) Do miss the Guild,
>>>>>> though...
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect we'll encounter the Guild at a later point. If I remember
>>>>> correctly, they didn't really manifest as individuals in the first
>>>>> book
>>>>> which was a clear change in the Lynch movie.
>>>>
>>>> I only vaguely remember them as a political presence.  But I thought
>>>> the "technology" they afforded was one of 'Dune's better sci-fi
>>>> conceits.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tech was never a focus of Herbert, intrigue was.
>>
>> ...which is perhaps why that particular tech wafted into mysticism.
>
>
> Yeah, I would say it's as much fantasy as science fiction. In fact, does
> science really enter into it?

Well, the plausibility of giant mobile creatures is always dicey, but I
did like the just-loopy-enough idea of warping space (with spice) to
achieve interstellar travel. One reviewer had the temerity to compare
this movie to STAR WARS, as if they were in the same genre...

trotsky <gmsingh@email.com> writes:

> On 11/7/2021 2:39 PM, moviePig wrote:
>> On 11/7/2021 2:33 PM, trotsky wrote:
>>> On 11/3/2021 9:26 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>> On 11/3/2021 8:40 AM, Otto J. Makela wrote:
>>>>> moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think "well done overall" sums up my reaction, too ...at least as
>>>>>> far as recreating the book's ambience. (This was an Art Director's
>>>>>> movie, and I thought they pulled it off.) Do miss the Guild, though...
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect we'll encounter the Guild at a later point. If I remember
>>>>> correctly, they didn't really manifest as individuals in the first book
>>>>> which was a clear change in the Lynch movie.
>>>>
>>>> I only vaguely remember them as a political presence.  But I
>>>> thought the "technology" they afforded was one of 'Dune's better
>>>> sci-fi conceits.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tech was never a focus of Herbert, intrigue was.
>>
>> ...which is perhaps why that particular tech wafted into mysticism.
>
>
> Yeah, I would say it's as much fantasy as science fiction. In fact,
> does science really enter into it?

Most stuff passed off as science fiction is just fantasy with silly
impossible tech explanations for how the magic works.

The series is the creation story of a god. That's how I approach it.
The science is about as good as a 40 night storm drowning the earth.
Shoot a laser at a shield and -boom- devastating explosion.
Conservation of mass, energy, or even water don't apply.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the book, and will watch whatever movies
come out.

trotsky <gmsingh@email.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I would say it's as much fantasy as science fiction. In fact,
> does science really enter into it?

Dune is certainly fantasy and not science fiction despite the
spaceships. The "voice" (the ability to push a virtually unignorable
and seemingly highly suggestive command into anyone else's head at
will where only the trained or familiar can resist the command) is
pure fantasy. Spice seems magical -- a mild hallucinogen that causes
small effects in the human-like creatures of Dune (blue eyes, if I
recall the movies) when one is exposed to enough spice, but spice is
also powerful enough to play a key role in giant spaceships traversing
great distances via space folding. Both are piles of unanswered
questions that the story doesn't seem to want the audience to ask. The
limits are basically undiscussed in both Lynch's Dune and the new Dune
part 1 movies. I got the impression that scientific inquiry is also
absent; the long movies trudge along without seeing people conduct
experiments in order to learn how their universe works. Instead,
learning the voice takes a secret-shared-among-the-few mode like
witches practicing magic spells.

On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:01:15 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
wrote:
>
>Well, the plausibility of giant mobile creatures is always dicey, but I
>did like the just-loopy-enough idea of warping space (with spice) to
>achieve interstellar travel.

It's been a while since I've read the books, but I don't think the
spice was actually used to warp space. It just made the navigators
prescient enough to know which warped paths through space would be
safe to travel.

-- Bob

On 11/8/2021 7:36 AM, Bice wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:01:15 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Well, the plausibility of giant mobile creatures is always dicey, but I
>> did like the just-loopy-enough idea of warping space (with spice) to
>> achieve interstellar travel.
>
> It's been a while since I've read the books, but I don't think the
> spice was actually used to warp space. It just made the navigators
> prescient enough to know which warped paths through space would be
> safe to travel.

A while for me, too, and I'll readily defer. Nor did I mean any
methodology specific enough to exclude that description.

trotsky <gmsingh@email.com> wrote:
> If you want the proper Dune experience you have to read the book.

No, nobody needs to do that. You're trying to distract attention from
a disapproving review of a movie with a hamfisted no true Scotsman
retort.

What you offer in response doesn't address any point I raised in my
review. I'm guessing that you don't repeat that rubbish to anyone who
didn't read the book but tells you that they liked Villeneuve's Dune.

On 11/7/2021 4:01 PM, moviePig wrote:
> On 11/7/2021 4:18 PM, trotsky wrote:
>> On 11/7/2021 2:39 PM, moviePig wrote:
>>> On 11/7/2021 2:33 PM, trotsky wrote:
>>>> On 11/3/2021 9:26 AM, moviePig wrote:
>>>>> On 11/3/2021 8:40 AM, Otto J. Makela wrote:
>>>>>> moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think "well done overall" sums up my reaction, too ...at least as
>>>>>>> far as recreating the book's ambience. (This was an Art Director's
>>>>>>> movie, and I thought they pulled it off.) Do miss the Guild,
>>>>>>> though...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect we'll encounter the Guild at a later point. If I remember
>>>>>> correctly, they didn't really manifest as individuals in the first
>>>>>> book
>>>>>> which was a clear change in the Lynch movie.
>>>>>
>>>>> I only vaguely remember them as a political presence.  But I
>>>>> thought the "technology" they afforded was one of 'Dune's better
>>>>> sci-fi conceits.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tech was never a focus of Herbert, intrigue was.
>>>
>>> ...which is perhaps why that particular tech wafted into mysticism.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, I would say it's as much fantasy as science fiction. In fact,
>> does science really enter into it?
>
> Well, the plausibility of giant mobile creatures is always dicey, but I
> did like the just-loopy-enough idea of warping space (with spice) to
> achieve interstellar travel.  One reviewer had the temerity to compare
> this movie to STAR WARS, as if they were in the same genre...

Some people think labelling a movie with a "genre" is somehow
meaningful, but I always thought Star Wars was best labelled Cowboys and
Indians in space. Meanwhile Dune is a sprawling five hundred page
fantasy with elements of science fiction. And I believe the political
intrigue and elements of religion are its main focus. The pigeonholing
is the sign of a small mind.

On 11/8/2021 8:33 AM, moviePig wrote:
> On 11/8/2021 7:36 AM, Bice wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Nov 2021 17:01:15 -0500, moviePig <pwallace@moviepig.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, the plausibility of giant mobile creatures is always dicey, but I
>>> did like the just-loopy-enough idea of warping space (with spice) to
>>> achieve interstellar travel.
>>
>> It's been a while since I've read the books, but I don't think the
>> spice was actually used to warp space.  It just made the navigators
>> prescient enough to know which warped paths through space would be
>> safe to travel.
>
> A while for me, too, and I'll readily defer.  Nor did I mean any
> methodology specific enough to exclude that description.
>

I can't remember either but Bice sounds like he's right. Maybe the book
is unfilmable. Villeneuve took a damn good shot at it though.

> trotsky
> > J.B. Nicholson
> >
> > The gatekeeping you and one other poster bring up here suggests you
> > two have some other interest in defending the story against anyone who
> > dares to critique it.

Nonsense, if you want to shoot the shit about the books (when you get
around to reading them) then I’m up for it but you’re saying the _story_
sucks and is unflimable, when you’ve only seen _adaptions_ of the story.

> > Since I initially posted on this thread friends of mine who have read the
> > first book told me that the Lynch movie is a reasonable adaptation of
> > that story.
>
> I can't tell if you're lying or just misinformed. According to wiki the
> "rough cut" of the movie was over four hours long, and there was a 186
> minute version of the story that was shown on TV that Lynch disavowed.
> So much more story was shot, but it sounds like Lynch wanted a link that
> could be shown in the theaters that wasn't too long so it stands to
> reason a large amount of storytelling was missing from his version.

The best version I’ve seen is the “Alternative Edition Redux Fanedit”.

> > According to the early-80s interviews around the release of Lynch's
> > Dune Frank Herbert seems to be fine with the Lynch movie.
>
> A Google search doesn't yield any such comments, and I wonder if
> they exist.

Wouldn’t surprise me, Frank Herbert seemed happy anyone was willing
to film his story, he was even fine with Jodorowsky’s planned version
even though it would have had little connection to the book.

If you haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend "Jodorowsky’s Dune",
a really good documentary interviewing the director and others about
the never-filmed adaption of "Dune".

The guy is bat-shit crazy but I would have liked to have seen his adaption,
as it would have been cool as fuck even if only remotely connected to
the original story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodorowsky%27s_Dune

https://i.postimg.cc/0Nn2LVVy/jodorowsky-frank-herbert.jpg
https://ibb.co/s2JT9dN