Pavane by Keith Roberts

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
> --

If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.

--
Kevin R

In article <a4f50ba5-b8c9-4d80-a466-d643498372fen@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>> --
>
>If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>
No time travel involved and it's the Fair Folk shaping the
next cycle.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Wednesday, 11 August 2021 at 14:28:22 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <a4f50ba5-b8c9-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
> >> --
> >
> >If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
> >Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
> >the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
> >top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
> >
> No time travel involved and it's the Fair Folk shaping the
> next cycle.

Well, then, is it definitely Time running in a circle and
inevitably re-creating Dorset, or could they be talking
about the previous fall of Roman Britain, or of Atlantis?

John Christopher's _The Prince in Waiting_ has English
people living medievally but occasionally tripping over
twentieth century stuff - which is to be destroyed - and
with a qualified acceptance of the atomically deformed.
It's one of "those" futures.

On 9/08/21 1:25 am, James Nicoll wrote:
> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>

I just loved his writing, I loved the family saga and the first two
Measures of the Pavane were my favourites in terms of fascinating world
building and plot.
The places, religious and country conflicts; the alternative history of
our history, were secondary to my enjoyment of the tales of honour, of
cunning, of morality, of loyalty.
quote
'You know,' she said, 'it's strange, Sir John; but it seemed this
morning when I fired the gun I was standing outside myself, just
watching what my body did. As if I, and you too, all of us, were just
tiny puppets on the grass. Or on a stage. Little mechanical things
playing out parts we didn't understand.' She stared into her wineglass,
swilling it in her hands to see flame light and lamplight dance from the
goldenness inside; then she looked up frowning, eyes opaque and dark.
'Do you know what I mean?' 
He nodded, gravely. 'Yes, my Lady...'
'Yes,' she said. 'It's like a... dance somehow, a minuet or a pavane.
Something stately and pointless, with all its steps set out. With a
beginning, and an end... ' end quote

And much more. Brilliant.

In article <23322ec9-b113-4048-b62f-dcbd9bf2a75dn@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Wednesday, 11 August 2021 at 14:28:22 UTC+1, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <a4f50ba5-b8c9-4d80...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> >On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>> >>
>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>> >> --
>> >
>> >If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>> >Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>> >the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>> >top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>> >
>> No time travel involved and it's the Fair Folk shaping the
>> next cycle.
>
>Well, then, is it definitely Time running in a circle and
>inevitably re-creating Dorset, or could they be talking
>about the previous fall of Roman Britain, or of Atlantis?
>
Unclear.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>> --
>
> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>

....you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.

In article <sf4ngt$snk$1@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>>> --
>>
>> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>>
>
>...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.

"Paging Larry Niven, white courtesy phone.."
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>>> --
>>
>> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>>
>
>...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.

Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?

Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> >>>
> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
> >>> --
> >>
> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
> >>
> >
> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.

I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.

> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>

A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?

> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> happen next?
> --

Vaal must be fed....

--
Kevin R

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>> >>>
>> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>> >>> --
>> >>
>> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>> >>
>> >
>> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>
>I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
>Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
>privilege.
>
>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>
>
>A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
>After they nibbled that fruit, though?

They might not have understood what it was but I'm pretty sure that
after a while they'd figure it out.

>> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
>> happen next?
>> --
>
>Vaal must be fed....

On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 8:01:29 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kev...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
> >On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> >> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> >> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
> >> >>> --
> >> >>
> >> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
> >> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
> >> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
> >> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> >> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
> >
> >I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
> >Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
> >privilege.
> >
> >> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
> >>
> >
> >A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
> >After they nibbled that fruit, though?
> They might not have understood what it was but I'm pretty sure that
> after a while they'd figure it out.

We (Catholic school kids), when the controversy over teaching
public school children "The Facts of Life" in the gubmint schools,
used to joke that in order to prevent teenage pregnancy, such things
should be taught.....but taught _wrong_.

[No, I didn't think that would work, either.]

> >> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> >> happen next?
> >> --
> >
> >Vaal must be fed....

--
Kevin R

On Friday, 13 August 2021 at 17:08:48 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> >>>
> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
> >>> --
> >>
> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
> >>
> >
> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>
> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> happen next?

In John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, which admittedly
isn't anyone's canon, Adam and Eve are sexually active
before the apple thing happens. It is false to treat
romantic and sexual feelings as apple-related.

It does get more kinky after the apple, though.
In the poem.

In article <4a4a551b-2737-4a26-bf6d-33b1986f0427n@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>On Friday, 13 August 2021 at 17:08:48 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>> >>>
>> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>> >>> --
>> >>
>> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>> >>
>> >
>> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>
>> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
>> happen next?
>
>In John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, which admittedly
>isn't anyone's canon, Adam and Eve are sexually active
>before the apple thing happens. It is false to treat
>romantic and sexual feelings as apple-related.
>
>It does get more kinky after the apple, though.
>In the poem.

Well, everything does.

In the TV version of _Good Omens,_ (which isn't canon either), Eve
is well along in pregnancy before they are driven out. I haven't
read the book in a while, so I don't know if that feature appears
there.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 20:01:24 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>>> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>> >>>
>>> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>>> >>> --
>>> >>
>>> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>>> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>>> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>>> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>>> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>>
>>I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
>>Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
>>privilege.
>>
>>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>>
>>
>>A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
>>After they nibbled that fruit, though?
>
>They might not have understood what it was but I'm pretty sure that
>after a while they'd figure it out.

Not without "knowledge of good and evil", I suspect.

In the first account, God has to /tell/ them to reproduce. It isn't
something He can depend on them doing on their own. Perhaps.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>> >>>
>> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>> >>> --
>> >>
>> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>> >> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>> >> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>> >> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>> >>
>> >
>> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>
>I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
>Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
>privilege.
>
>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>
>
>A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
>After they nibbled that fruit, though?

After that, they had "knowledge of good an evil" and were Fallen.

I'm nearly agreeing with you, just pointing out that you are slipping
from pre-Fall to post-Fall.

>> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
>> happen next?
>> --
>
>Vaal must be fed....
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Sat, 14 Aug 2021 14:33:56 +0000, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> In article <4a4a551b-2737-4a26-bf6d-33b1986f0427n@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:
>>On Friday, 13 August 2021 at 17:08:48 UTC+1, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>>> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>> >>>
>>> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
>>> >>
>>> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
>>> >> Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first
>>> >> humans to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do
>>> >> list - unless that's just a story.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and
>>> >discovering sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>>
>>> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
>>> happen next?
>>
>>In John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, which admittedly isn't anyone's canon,
>>Adam and Eve are sexually active before the apple thing happens. It is
>>false to treat romantic and sexual feelings as apple-related.
>>
>>It does get more kinky after the apple, though.
>>In the poem.
>
> Well, everything does.
>
> In the TV version of _Good Omens,_ (which isn't canon either), Eve is
> well along in pregnancy before they are driven out. I haven't read the
> book in a while, so I don't know if that feature appears there.

In the book I think the impression was that she was recently
pregnant,i.e. they eat the apple and did the deed right off.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700, Kevrob wrote:

> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>> >>>
>> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
>> >>
>> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
>> >> Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
>> >> to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
>> >> unless that's just a story.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>
> I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
> Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
>
>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>
>>
> A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
> they nibbled that fruit, though?
>
>> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
>> happen next?
>> --
>
> Vaal must be fed....

It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.

On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:52:57 PM UTC+1, Magewolf wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700, Kevrob wrote:
>
> > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> >> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> >> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> >> >>>
> >> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
> >> >>
> >> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
> >> >> Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
> >> >> to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
> >> >> unless that's just a story.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> >> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
> >
> > I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
> > Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
> >
> >> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
> >>
> >>
> > A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
> > they nibbled that fruit, though?
> >
> >> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> >> happen next?
> >> --
> >
> > Vaal must be fed....
> It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
> would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.

On Sunday, August 15, 2021 at 10:01:15 AM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:52:57 PM UTC+1, Magewolf wrote:
> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700, Kevrob wrote:
> >
> > > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> > >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> > >> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> > >> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > >> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
> > >> >> Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
> > >> >> to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
> > >> >> unless that's just a story.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> > >> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
> > >
> > > I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
> > > Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
> > >
> > >> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
> > >>
> > >>
> > > A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
> > > they nibbled that fruit, though?
> > >
> > >> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> > >> happen next?
> > >> --
> > >
> > > Vaal must be fed....
> > It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
> > would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
> A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.

There are Talmudic traditions that prior to having a partner, Adam had intercourse with
female animals in the Garden. Then of course, there's Lillith.

Pt

On Sunday, 15 August 2021 at 19:27:54 UTC+1, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, August 15, 2021 at 10:01:15 AM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:52:57 PM UTC+1, Magewolf wrote:
> > > On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700, Kevrob wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> > > >> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> > > >> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> > > >> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
> > > >> >> Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
> > > >> >> to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
> > > >> >> unless that's just a story.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> > > >> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
> > > >
> > > > I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
> > > > Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
> > > >
> > > >> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > > A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
> > > > they nibbled that fruit, though?
> > > >
> > > >> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> > > >> happen next?
> > > >> --
> > > >
> > > > Vaal must be fed....
> > > It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
> > > would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
> > A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.
> There are Talmudic traditions that prior to having a partner, Adam had intercourse with
> female animals in the Garden.

He did try all of them* as companions before God offered Eve.

* But, https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Hedgehog_song

There's also the point that God should have thought about his
pet man being lonely before he got it.

>Then of course, there's Lillith.
>
> Pt

On Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:27:51 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, August 15, 2021 at 10:01:15 AM UTC-4, mcdow...@sky.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, August 14, 2021 at 7:52:57 PM UTC+1, Magewolf wrote:
>> > On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 15:27:43 -0700, Kevrob wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> > >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>> > >> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> >On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>> > >> >> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>> > >> >>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>> > >> >>>
>> > >> >>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
>> > >> >> Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
>> > >> >> to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
>> > >> >> unless that's just a story.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>> > >> >sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>> > >
>> > > I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
>> > > Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
>> > >
>> > >> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > > A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
>> > > they nibbled that fruit, though?
>> > >
>> > >> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
>> > >> happen next?
>> > >> --
>> > >
>> > > Vaal must be fed....
>> > It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
>> > would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
>> A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.
>
>There are Talmudic traditions that prior to having a partner, Adam had intercourse with
>female animals in the Garden. Then of course, there's Lillith.

In /Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis/, Robert Graves & Raphael Patai
report that, in the Talmud, woman was said to have originally had a
tail.

And also that some of the /really/ large animals were towed behind the
Ark, rather than being in it.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2021-08-13 10:08 a.m., Paul S Person wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>>> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>>>> --
>>>
>>> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>>> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>>> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>>> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>>>
>>
>> ...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>> sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>
> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>
> Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
> happen next?
>

Nothing. They never have sex, they never have babies. The end.
Remember, the punishment was having to have and care for babies.

On 2021-08-13 4:27 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
>> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
>>>>>
>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
>>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
>>>> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
>>>> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
>>>> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
>>> sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
>
> I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
> Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
> privilege.
>
>> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
>>
>
> A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
> After they nibbled that fruit, though?

The fruit is a bloody metaphor. She is tempted by a snake, he is
tempted by a fig and after they succumb to temptation, suddenly nudity
seems like a big deal to them.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:06:30 PM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-08-13 4:27 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> > On Friday, August 13, 2021 at 12:08:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
> >> <davidjo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2021-08-10 10:53 p.m., Kevrob wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, August 8, 2021 at 9:25:07 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> >>>>> Pavane by Keith Roberts
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
> >>>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
> >>>> Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
> >>>> the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
> >>>> top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
> >>> sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
> >
> > I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
> > Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
> > privilege.
> >
> >> Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
> >>
> >
> > A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
> > After they nibbled that fruit, though?
> The fruit is a bloody metaphor. She is tempted by a snake, he is
> tempted by a fig and after they succumb to temptation, suddenly nudity
> seems like a big deal to them.

Before the fall, nudity was not sinful, so presumably sex wasn't either.

Actually, nothing was sinful.

John