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arts / alt.history.what-if / Lebensraum ISOT

SubjectAuthor
* Lebensraum ISOTLouis Epstein
`* Re: Lebensraum ISOTGraham Truesdale
 `* Re: Lebensraum ISOTLouis Epstein
  `* Re: Lebensraum ISOTGraham Truesdale
   `* Re: Lebensraum ISOTLouis Epstein
    `- Re: Lebensraum ISOTGraham Truesdale

1
Lebensraum ISOT

<s53ana$cp0$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Lebensraum ISOT
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 05:37:46 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Tue, 13 Apr 2021 05:37 UTC

Thinking about the recent 1914/500 Russia swap suggestion...
here's an alternative.

In 1918,as the Bolsheviks are about to sign the Treaty of
Brest-Litovsk,the witch-goddess Prababka Yaga is fed up
and instead sends the Central Powers (Germany,AH,Ottomans)
back 1400 years to 518.

All their armed forces who were beyond their borders do
not make the trip...the naval vessels that were in port
go along.(So Germany keeps the battleships Baden and Bayern,
and the near-completion-but-work-suspended Sachsen and
Wurttemberg...would they stay abandoned or be completed as
shock-and-awe exemplars?).

I originally considered this as applying just to Germany but
including the other parties to the treaty adds interesting
wrinkles...in 518,1918 Greece's boundaries would suddenly host
a rump Byzantine entity extending to Egypt (OTL Egypt had been
declared independent of the Ottomans) while the Turks would
face being Caliphs of a world where there had never been a
Mohammed let alone Islam.

Could the Ostrogoths hold off the Austro-goths who wanted
to reverse Italian unification?

How hard would the Kaiser work at spreading dominion over
territories that couldn't fight back worth beans?

(And I suppose people can speculate about the mirror too).

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Lebensraum ISOT

<fcb6c5e9-b9e5-47bd-a815-dd3876ebd175n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Lebensraum ISOT
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Tue, 13 Apr 2021 19:28 UTC

On Tuesday, 13 April 2021 at 06:37:47 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Thinking about the recent 1914/500 Russia swap suggestion...
> here's an alternative.
>
> In 1918,as the Bolsheviks are about to sign the Treaty of
> Brest-Litovsk,the witch-goddess Prababka Yaga is fed up
> and instead sends the Central Powers (Germany,AH,Ottomans)
> back 1400 years to 518.
>
Not Bulgaria?
>
> All their armed forces who were beyond their borders do
> not make the trip...the naval vessels that were in port
> go along.(So Germany keeps the battleships Baden and Bayern,
> and the near-completion-but-work-suspended Sachsen and
> Wurttemberg...would they stay abandoned or be completed as
> shock-and-awe exemplars?).
>
> I originally considered this as applying just to Germany but
> including the other parties to the treaty adds interesting
> wrinkles...in 518,1918 Greece's boundaries would suddenly host
> a rump Byzantine entity extending to Egypt (OTL Egypt had been
> declared independent of the Ottomans)
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Justinian_dynasty#/media/File:Byzantine_Empire_animated.gif suggests that the entity would extend north of Greece.
>
> while the Turks would
> face being Caliphs of a world where there had never been a
> Mohammed let alone Islam.
>
> Could the Ostrogoths hold off the Austro-goths who wanted
> to reverse Italian unification?
>
> How hard would the Kaiser work at spreading dominion over
> territories that couldn't fight back worth beans?
>
> (And I suppose people can speculate about the mirror too).
>
> -=-=-
> The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
> at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Lebensraum ISOT

<s55teb$aeo$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Lebensraum ISOT
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 05:09:31 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Wed, 14 Apr 2021 05:09 UTC

Graham Truesdale <graham.truesdale@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 April 2021 at 06:37:47 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> Thinking about the recent 1914/500 Russia swap suggestion...
>> here's an alternative.
>>
>> In 1918,as the Bolsheviks are about to sign the Treaty of
>> Brest-Litovsk,the witch-goddess Prababka Yaga is fed up
>> and instead sends the Central Powers (Germany,AH,Ottomans)
>> back 1400 years to 518.
>>
> Not Bulgaria?

I don't believe they gained any territory from Russia
under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (they had no border)
so they wouldn't be part of the curse.

>>
>> All their armed forces who were beyond their borders do
>> not make the trip...the naval vessels that were in port
>> go along.(So Germany keeps the battleships Baden and Bayern,
>> and the near-completion-but-work-suspended Sachsen and
>> Wurttemberg...would they stay abandoned or be completed as
>> shock-and-awe exemplars?).
>>
>> I originally considered this as applying just to Germany but
>> including the other parties to the treaty adds interesting
>> wrinkles...in 518,1918 Greece's boundaries would suddenly host
>> a rump Byzantine entity extending to Egypt (OTL Egypt had been
>> declared independent of the Ottomans)
>>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Justinian_dynasty#/media/File:Byzantine_Empire_animated.gif
> suggests that the entity would extend north of Greece.

True,the Bulgarian territory would also be in part
Byzantine (Western Thrace).Any parts of the Balkans
not part of AH or OE in 1918 would have their 518
status.

>>
>> while the Turks would
>> face being Caliphs of a world where there had never been a
>> Mohammed let alone Islam.
>>
>> Could the Ostrogoths hold off the Austro-goths who wanted
>> to reverse Italian unification?
>>
>> How hard would the Kaiser work at spreading dominion over
>> territories that couldn't fight back worth beans?
>>
>> (And I suppose people can speculate about the mirror too).
>>
>> -=-=-
>> The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
>> at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Lebensraum ISOT

<09b8f6b6-5461-45ad-ab24-93f8f1c97110n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Lebensraum ISOT
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Wed, 14 Apr 2021 18:03 UTC

On Wednesday, 14 April 2021 at 06:09:32 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Graham Truesdale <graham.t...ATgmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 13 April 2021 at 06:37:47 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> >> Thinking about the recent 1914/500 Russia swap suggestion...
> >> here's an alternative.
> >>
> >> In 1918,as the Bolsheviks are about to sign the Treaty of
> >> Brest-Litovsk,the witch-goddess Prababka Yaga is fed up
> >> and instead sends the Central Powers (Germany,AH,Ottomans)
> >> back 1400 years to 518.
> >>
> > Not Bulgaria?
> I don't believe they gained any territory from Russia
> under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (they had no border)
> so they wouldn't be part of the curse.
> >>
> >> All their armed forces who were beyond their borders do
> >> not make the trip...the naval vessels that were in port
> >> go along.(So Germany keeps the battleships Baden and Bayern,
> >> and the near-completion-but-work-suspended Sachsen and
> >> Wurttemberg...would they stay abandoned or be completed as
> >> shock-and-awe exemplars?).
> >>
> >> I originally considered this as applying just to Germany but
> >> including the other parties to the treaty adds interesting
> >> wrinkles...in 518,1918 Greece's boundaries would suddenly host
> >> a rump Byzantine entity extending to Egypt (OTL Egypt had been
> >> declared independent of the Ottomans)
> >>
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Justinian_dynasty#/media/File:Byzantine_Empire_animated.gif
> > suggests that the entity would extend north of Greece.
> True,the Bulgarian territory would also be in part
> Byzantine (Western Thrace).Any parts of the Balkans
> not part of AH or OE in 1918 would have their 518
> status.
> >>
> >> while the Turks would
> >> face being Caliphs of a world where there had never been a
> >> Mohammed let alone Islam.
> >>
> >> Could the Ostrogoths hold off the Austro-goths who wanted
> >> to reverse Italian unification?
> >>
> >> How hard would the Kaiser work at spreading dominion over
> >> territories that couldn't fight back worth beans?
> >>
> >> (And I suppose people can speculate about the mirror too).
>
Did Austria-Hungary gain any territory at Brest-Litovsk? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Map_Treaty_Brest-Litovsk.jpg suggests not.

Re: Lebensraum ISOT

<s57nv7$4kl$1@reader1.panix.com>

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Lebensraum ISOT
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:48:23 +0000 (UTC)
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 by: Louis Epstein - Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:48 UTC

Graham Truesdale <graham.truesdale@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, 14 April 2021 at 06:09:32 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> Graham Truesdale <graham.t...ATgmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, 13 April 2021 at 06:37:47 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> >> Thinking about the recent 1914/500 Russia swap suggestion...
>> >> here's an alternative.
>> >>
>> >> In 1918,as the Bolsheviks are about to sign the Treaty of
>> >> Brest-Litovsk,the witch-goddess Prababka Yaga is fed up
>> >> and instead sends the Central Powers (Germany,AH,Ottomans)
>> >> back 1400 years to 518.
>> >>
>> > Not Bulgaria?
>> I don't believe they gained any territory from Russia
>> under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (they had no border)
>> so they wouldn't be part of the curse.
>> >>
>> >> All their armed forces who were beyond their borders do
>> >> not make the trip...the naval vessels that were in port
>> >> go along.(So Germany keeps the battleships Baden and Bayern,
>> >> and the near-completion-but-work-suspended Sachsen and
>> >> Wurttemberg...would they stay abandoned or be completed as
>> >> shock-and-awe exemplars?).
>> >>
>> >> I originally considered this as applying just to Germany but
>> >> including the other parties to the treaty adds interesting
>> >> wrinkles...in 518,1918 Greece's boundaries would suddenly host
>> >> a rump Byzantine entity extending to Egypt (OTL Egypt had been
>> >> declared independent of the Ottomans)
>> >>
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Justinian_dynasty#/media/File:Byzantine_Empire_animated.gif
>> > suggests that the entity would extend north of Greece.
>> True,the Bulgarian territory would also be in part
>> Byzantine (Western Thrace).Any parts of the Balkans
>> not part of AH or OE in 1918 would have their 518
>> status.
>> >>
>> >> while the Turks would
>> >> face being Caliphs of a world where there had never been a
>> >> Mohammed let alone Islam.
>> >>
>> >> Could the Ostrogoths hold off the Austro-goths who wanted
>> >> to reverse Italian unification?
>> >>
>> >> How hard would the Kaiser work at spreading dominion over
>> >> territories that couldn't fight back worth beans?
>> >>
>> >> (And I suppose people can speculate about the mirror too).
>>
> Did Austria-Hungary gain any territory at Brest-Litovsk?
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Map_Treaty_Brest-Litovsk.jpg
> suggests not.

I believe concessions were made to them...both German and AH military
presence in Ukraine was recognized and I think AH got part of southern
Poland...I've even seen maps that say AH got Crimea,presumably on a
"sphere of influence" basis...but perhaps Ukraine was simply let free
with no expansion of AH...but if you don't count client states as gains
for the Central Powers their gains were minimal.

Only non-contiguous German and Ottoman empires being sent back
would be a different wrinkle,of course.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Lebensraum ISOT

<e901282e-f710-4167-89f9-96d757a8867dn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Lebensraum ISOT
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:09 UTC

On Wednesday, 14 April 2021 at 22:48:24 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Graham Truesdale <graham.t...ATgmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 14 April 2021 at 06:09:32 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> >> Graham Truesdale <graham.t...ATgmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday, 13 April 2021 at 06:37:47 UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> >> >> Thinking about the recent 1914/500 Russia swap suggestion...
> >> >> here's an alternative.
> >> >>
> >> >> In 1918,as the Bolsheviks are about to sign the Treaty of
> >> >> Brest-Litovsk,the witch-goddess Prababka Yaga is fed up
> >> >> and instead sends the Central Powers (Germany,AH,Ottomans)
> >> >> back 1400 years to 518.
> >> >>
> >> > Not Bulgaria?
> >> I don't believe they gained any territory from Russia
> >> under the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (they had no border)
> >> so they wouldn't be part of the curse.
> >> >>
> >> >> All their armed forces who were beyond their borders do
> >> >> not make the trip...the naval vessels that were in port
> >> >> go along.(So Germany keeps the battleships Baden and Bayern,
> >> >> and the near-completion-but-work-suspended Sachsen and
> >> >> Wurttemberg...would they stay abandoned or be completed as
> >> >> shock-and-awe exemplars?).
> >> >>
> >> >> I originally considered this as applying just to Germany but
> >> >> including the other parties to the treaty adds interesting
> >> >> wrinkles...in 518,1918 Greece's boundaries would suddenly host
> >> >> a rump Byzantine entity extending to Egypt (OTL Egypt had been
> >> >> declared independent of the Ottomans)
> >> >>
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire_under_the_Justinian_dynasty#/media/File:Byzantine_Empire_animated.gif
> >> > suggests that the entity would extend north of Greece.
> >> True,the Bulgarian territory would also be in part
> >> Byzantine (Western Thrace).Any parts of the Balkans
> >> not part of AH or OE in 1918 would have their 518
> >> status.
> >> >>
> >> >> while the Turks would
> >> >> face being Caliphs of a world where there had never been a
> >> >> Mohammed let alone Islam.
> >> >>
> >> >> Could the Ostrogoths hold off the Austro-goths who wanted
> >> >> to reverse Italian unification?
> >> >>
> >> >> How hard would the Kaiser work at spreading dominion over
> >> >> territories that couldn't fight back worth beans?
> >> >>
> >> >> (And I suppose people can speculate about the mirror too).
> >>
> > Did Austria-Hungary gain any territory at Brest-Litovsk?
> > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Map_Treaty_Brest-Litovsk.jpg
> > suggests not.
> I believe concessions were made to them...both German and AH military
> presence in Ukraine was recognized and I think AH got part of southern
> Poland...I've even seen maps that say AH got Crimea,presumably on a
> "sphere of influence" basis...but perhaps Ukraine was simply let free
> with no expansion of AH...but if you don't count client states as gains
> for the Central Powers their gains were minimal.
>
> Only non-contiguous German and Ottoman empires being sent back
> would be a different wrinkle,of course.
>
In case it is of interest ...
https://www.firstworldwar.com/source/ukrainianpeacetreaty.htm
"ARTICLE II

(1) As between Austria-Hungary of the one part, and the Ukrainian People's Republic of the other part, in so far as these two Powers border upon one another, the frontiers which existed between the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and Russia prior to the outbreak of the present war will be preserved.

(2) Further north, the frontier of the Ukrainian People's Republic, starting at Tarnograd, will in general follow the line Bilgoray, Szczebrzeszyn, Krasnostav, Pugashov, Radzin, Miedzyzheche, Sarnaki, Melnik, Vysokie-Litovsk, Kameniec-Litovsk, Prujany, and Vygonovsk Lake. This frontier will be delimited in detail by a mixed commission, according to the ethnographical conditions and after taking the wishes of the inhabitants into consideration.

(3) In the event of the Ukrainian People's Republic having boundaries coterminous with those of another of the Powers of the Quadruple Alliance, special agreements may be come to thereupon at a later date."
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/Tarnogr%C3%B3d,+Poland/Bilgoraj,+23-400,+Poland/Szczebrzeszyn,+Poland/Krasnostav,+Volyn+Oblast,+Ukraine/Radzi%C5%86a+Podlaska,+Poland/Sarnaki,+Poland/Pruzhany,+Belarus/Vygonoschanskoye+Lake,+Belarus/@51.507679,22.0357847,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m50!4m49!1m5!1m1!1s0x473cb400bf0f700b:0xa285c4266588abae!2m2!1d22.7406396!2d50.3610555!1m5!1m1!1s0x472335d7dfc49875:0xbe84b108279e665!2m2!1d22.7219799!2d50.54099!1m5!1m1!1s0x472340f13c1efd19:0x4fe719b661bf45ba!2m2!1d22.980033!2d50.6951326!1m5!1m1!1s0x47245a7bd1603b29:0x851a6d0b01cdc1f7!2m2!1d24.4768391!2d50.8934363!1m5!1m1!1s0x4722192527703449:0x113e24307dac19c!2m2!1d22.6218532!2d51.7832025!1m5!1m1!1s0x4721c4d4d63b088d:0xf9b7ceadf0cba41c!2m2!1d22.8893802!2d52.3147541!1m5!1m1!1s0x4720eb4702629e45:0xfd4bad1385e582e2!2m2!1d24.4553068!2d52.5557778!1m5!1m1!1s0x46d89f48d6392ad7:0xae5cbe78ce57ad1c!2m2!1d25.9376401!2d52.6820022!3e0

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor