Does the Internet qualify as a life form?

Andrew posted in another thread this definition
from NASA...

“Life is a self-sustaining chemical system capable of Darwinian evolution”.

One could argue users are the primary components of
the internet, and they are intelligent people.
But it's the viral-effect of the Internet that
makes it so special, it's ability, due to it's
network structure, to 'take on a life of it's own'
and self-organize.

Is a virus like COVID alive? Many argue a virus
is in a gray area between living and non living.
But isn't it's viral-effect due to being so contagious
a 'life of it's own'? Is the viral-effect of the
Internet a 'life of it's own'?

In another thread I asked the question how could
both of these pictures show very similar structural
similarities. Specifically how could both show
5 main structures, but...6 /only/ if you count
the weakest structure...in each?

That's two levels of correlation making it merely a
coincidence highly unlikely. The similar patterns
must have a similar source.

A single neuron.
https://www.dana.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/how-brain-works-basics-2.jpg

A simulation showing the structure of /dark/ matter across
the universe 101 light-years wide by 15 light-years thick.
(31 million parsecs by 5 million parsecs)
https://wwwmpa.mpa-garching.mpg.de/galform/virgo/millennium/seqF_063a_half.jpg

And that source is they are both self-organized structures, they
both have taken on a 'life of it's own. They both are the
result of evolutionary processes.

So if the Internet, COVID or even the viral-effect
we just witnessed in Afghanistan are alive
....so is the Universe.

And answer this question. If a brain is considered life
and it's components are neurons connected within a
complex network. Then is a self-organized network where
the components are...galaxies, not neurons, a more
complex or higher form of life?

Or not?

Some supporting cites are below.

Self-organization
From Wikipedia,

Self-organization, also called (in the social sciences)
spontaneous order, is a process where some form of overall order
arises from local interactions between parts of an initially
disordered system. The process can be spontaneous when
sufficient energy is available, not needing control by any
external agent. It is often triggered by seemingly random
fluctuations, amplified by positive feedback.

The resulting organization is wholly decentralized, distributed
over all the components of the system. As such, the organization
is typically robust and able to survive or self-repair
substantial perturbation. Chaos theory discusses self-organization
in terms of islands of predictability in a sea of
chaotic unpredictability.

Self-organization occurs in many physical, chemical,
biological, robotic, and cognitive systems. Examples
of self-organization include crystallization, thermal
convection of fluids, chemical oscillation, animal swarming,
neural circuits, and black markets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organization

OXFORD ACEDEMIC

BioSciece

Self-organization, Natural Selection, and Evolution: Cellular Hardware
and Genetic Software

"When Wöhler produced urea using a purely chemical process, it
changed the way we perceived biology, as it showed that the
substances of physical and living systems are identical.

Beginning with Turing (1952), and continuing with Nicolis
and Prigogine (1977), Kauffman (1993), and many others, a
similar change in perspective is currently under way.
We now know that life is not only made up of the same substances
as the inorganic world but also that life's processes are often
the same as those we see in the natural world.

It is therefore possible for both biologists and geophysicists
to study different examples of the same process, and a change
in perspective, and perhaps educational curriculum, is necessary
for contemporary biology. The teaching of the physical sciences
to evolutionary biologists is well established...It is the hope
of self-organization researchers that an appreciation of
the fundamental roles played by physical pattern-formation
mechanisms will soon be treated in the same manner.
https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/60/11/879/328810

MIT
Self-Organization and Artificial Life
Carlos Gershenson,
https://doi.org/10.1162/artl_a_00324

Abstract

Self-organization can be broadly defined as the ability of a system
to display ordered spatiotemporal patterns solely as the result
of the interactions among the system components. Processes of this
kind characterize both living and artificial systems, making
self-organization a concept that is at the basis of several
disciplines, from physics to biology and engineering.

Placed at the frontiers between disciplines, artificial life
(ALife) has heavily borrowed concepts and tools from the study
of self-organization, providing mechanistic interpretations of
lifelike phenomena as well as useful constructivist approaches
to artificial system design. Despite its broad usage within
ALife, the concept of self-organization has been often
excessively stretched or misinterpreted, calling for a
clarification that could help with tracing the borders
between what can and cannot be considered self-organization.

In this review, we discuss the fundamental aspects of
self-organization and list the main usages within three
primary ALife domains, namely

“soft” (mathematical/computational modeling),
“hard” (physical robots), and
“wet” (chemical/biological systems) ALife.

We hope that this work will motivate discussions related
to self-organization in ALife and related fields.
https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article/26/3/391/93243/Self-Organization-and-Artificial-Life

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 8/24/2021 11:55 AM, Jonathan wrote:
>

I forget this cite. Please notice the date
and in the cite "...for the first time"
and ..."often seemingly purposeful".

Order out of Randomness: Self-Organization Processes in Astrophysics
Space Science Reviews
volume 214, Article number: 55 (2018)

Abstract

Self-organization is a property of dissipative nonlinear processes
that are governed by a global driving force and a local
positive feedback mechanism, which creates regular geometric
and/or temporal patterns, and decreases the entropy locally, in
contrast to random processes. Here we investigate for the first time
a comprehensive number of (17) self-organization processes that
operate in planetary physics, solar physics, stellar physics,
galactic physics, and cosmology. Self-organizing systems
create spontaneous “order out of randomness”, during the
evolution from an initially disordered system to an ordered
quasi-stationary system, mostly by quasi-periodic limit-cycle
dynamics, but also by harmonic (mechanical or gyromagnetic)
resonances.

Self-organization is the spontaneous often seemingly
purposeful formation of spatial, temporal, spatio-temporal
structures or functions in systems composed of few or many
components. In physics, chemistry, and biology, self-organization
occurs in open systems driven away from thermal equilibrium.

The process of self-organization can be found in many other fields
also, such as economy, sociology, medicine, technology
(Haken 2008). Self-organization creates “order out of randomness”
that is opposite to random processes with increasing entropy.

Self-organization is a spontaneous process that does not need
any control by an external force. It is often initiated by
random fluctuations where the local reaction is amplified by a
positive feedback mechanism. It can evolve into a stationary
cyclic dynamics governed by a (strange) attractor, and develops,
as a result of many microscopic interactions, a macroscopic
regular geometric spatial pattern (Nicolis and Prigogine 1977;
Kaufman 1993, 1996). In this review we compile for the first time
a comprehensive set of self-organizing systems observed or
inferred in astrophysics.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11214-018-0489-2

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

MIT
Self-Organization and Artificial Life
Carlos Gershenson,
https://doi.org/10.1162/artl_a_00324

In this review, we discuss the fundamental aspects of
self-organization and list the main usages within three
primary ALife domains, namely

“soft” (mathematical/computational modeling),
“hard” (physical robots), and
“wet” (chemical/biological systems) ALife.

We hope that this work will motivate discussions related
to self-organization in ALife and related fields.
https://direct.mit.edu/artl/article/26/3/391/93243/Self-Organization-and-Artificial-Life

Carl Woese, a Titan of Evolutionary microbiology

Carl Woese was a microbiologist who revolutionized the field
of phylogenic taxonomy. The tree of life originally included
two domains, prokaryotic and eukaryotic, until Woese disproved
this hypothesis through the use of ribosomal RNA (rRNA).

He sequenced and compared the 16S rRNA (a component of the
small subunit of a prokaryotic ribosome) of bacteria and
elucidated that Archaea had evolved separately from the
universal ancestor of all life, simultaneously setting the
standard for determining evolutionary relatedness among
organisms.

These studies allowed him to propose the idea that RNA
was the precursor to life on Earth because of its
catalytic tendencies, stability, and ability to store
genetic information.
http://www.nasonline.org/member-directory/deceased-members/8899.html

Complexity Theory Takes Evolution to Another Level

One hundred and ninety-nine years after Charles Darwin was born,
and 149 years after he published On the Origin of Species,
some scientists say that the theory of evolution is due for a
revision.

Not a religiously inspired revision -- intelligent designers
need not apply. Nobody suggests that genetic mutation and
natural selection aren't responsible for the evolution of
birds from reptiles or humans from tree-swingers.

But a growing number of scientists do say that neo-Darwinian
evolution doesn't explain certain jumps in biological complexity:
from single-celled to multicellular organisms, from single
organisms to entire communities.

The jumps -- saltations, in complexity parlance -- appear to be
non-linear emergent phenomena, the result of networked interactions
that produce self-organization at ever higher levels. From
this perspective, Darwinian evolution is a mechanism of a
higher universal law, perhaps even a variant on the
second law of thermodynamics.

One interviewee was Carl Woese, a titan of 20th century
microbiology, who with colleague George Fox reorganized
the organismal kingdom from five branches to three.

Woese's experience with bacteria led him to look for an
evolutionary framework larger than that provided by Darwin
and his intellectual descendants. Bacteria -- which may
account for up to half of Earth's biomass -- swap genes
without reproducing; with millions residing in a teaspoon
of seawater, Woese sees them in terms of networked communities
rather than individual cells, and interprets their
evolutionary history as driven by the non-linear
self-organization that's now being studied at all
biological scales.

Quote from Carl Woese....

"It's a rough analogy, but if you knew a lot about
individual stars, it's doubtful you could predict the
existence of galaxies. When the larger unit is sufficiently
integrated, the individual unit is not as individualistic
as you think. [...]

The prokaryote concept is a bunch of crap, and stood in
the way of the development of microbiology for 80 years.
Only now is microbiology emerging, and people like you can
hear what =I'm saying. These concepts are not based on the
individual organism, the individual species. The individual
unit in microbiology is not the cell; the primary unit
is the organismal community.

Cells develop in organismal community; they don't give rise
to them; the evolution of the cell takes place in the framework
of this community. The individual organism more tightly
coupled to the whole than we recognized. [...]

The world of animals and plants began with eukaryotic cells,
as you know; what the history of the development of the eukaryotic
cell is, I don't know, but it's clearly a more complex entity
than either the archaea or the bacteria. There's something
we're going to find about the eukaryote that's very special,
and captures the essence [of emergence and complexity at the
heart of evolution.] [...]

Evolution is a process that manifests itself at a
level-independent way. You've got these basic cells, viruses
along with them -- and then the multicellular world, the
same evolutionary scenario played out, but the dynamics are
shown to be the same; then you go to society and see the
same dynamic playing out again -- but it's not the
darwinian dynamic. It's the pre-Darwinian dynamic, when
individuality had little significance, and everything was
in distributed interaction. [...]

Saltations are state changes. The simple example would be
something like a magnet heated up to a high temperature where
the iron dissolves; the magnetic properties are gone; then when
you reach a critical temperature in cooling down, the
magneticism reappears in a very short temperature change.

The property is gone in the individual iron atoms, but when
they behave collectively, you see the property of the whole.
That's a very simple example.

The microbial world is where I work; [saltational evolution]
predicts that there should be properties of the collective thing,
that arise as the thing collects. [...]

Twentieth century biology was structured according to a
linear Newtonian worldview. Linear thinking is not the kind
of thinking that's needed to study evolution. It doesn't
help you understand the nature of systems. Molecular biologists
were so set about linearity that when the gene came along, they
took the gene to be the be-all and end-all of basic biology.

That comes out of thinking in terms of particles and
linear interactions.... I see evolution as the quintessential
non-linear dynamics problem."
https://www.wired.com/2008/02/complexity-theo/

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

This is the modern definition of an evolving system, placed
in entirely abstract mathematical terms so that it can be
applied with equal validity to physical systems such as
the universe, to biological systems and even ideas.

Examples from each of these three broad realms
of existence follows this definition.

Natural Order - Self-Organizing Systems FAQ
Frequently Asked Questions

1.3 Definition of Complexity Theory

The main current scientific theory related to self-organization
is Complexity Theory, which states:

Critically interacting components self-organize to form
potentially evolving structures exhibiting a hierarchy of
emergent system properties.

The elements of this definition relate to the following:

Critically Interacting - System is information rich, neither
static nor chaotic

Components - Modularity and autonomy of part behaviour implied

Self-Organize - Attractor structure is generated by local
contextual interactions

Potentially Evolving - Environmental variation selects and
mutates attractors

Hierarchy - Multiple levels of structure and responses
appear (hyperstructure)

Emergent System Properties - New features are evident which
require a new vocabulary

We explore and explain the terms comprising this definition in this FAQ.
https://naturalorder.info/self-organizingsystems.html#1.3

CORNELL UNIVERSITY

Astrophysics > Solar and Stellar Astrophysics

Order out of Randomness : Self-Organization Processes in Astrophysics

"Self-organization is a property of dissipative nonlinear processes
that are governed by an internal driver and a positive
feedback mechanism, which creates regular geometric and/or
temporal patterns and decreases the entropy, in contrast to
random processes. Here we investigate for the first time a
comprehensive number of 16 self-organization processes that
operate in planetary physics, solar physics, stellar physics,
galactic physics, and cosmology.
https://arxiv.org/abs/1708.03394

Natural selection and self-organization
Dynamical models as clues to a new evolutionary synthesis

Bruce H. Weber & David J. Depew
Biology and Philosophy volume 11, pages33–65 (1996)Cite this article

Abstract

The Darwinian concept of natural selection was conceived within
a set of Newtonian background assumptions about systems
dynamics. Mendelian genetics at first did not sit well with
the gradualist assumptions of the Darwinian theory. Eventually,
however, Mendelism and Darwinism were fused by reformulating
natural selection in statistical terms. This reflected a shift
to a more probabilistic set of background assumptions based
upon Boltzmannian systems dynamics. Recent developments in
molecular genetics and paleontology have put pressure on Darwinism
once again.

Current work on self-organizing systems may provide
a stimulus not only for increased problem solving within
the Darwinian tradition, especially with respect to
origins of life, developmental genetics, phylogenetic pattern,
and energy-flow ecology, but for deeper understanding of the
very phenomenon of natural selection itself.

Since self-organizational phenomena depend deeply on
stochastic processes, self-organizational systems dynamics
advance the probability revolution. In our view, natural selection
is an emergent phenomenon of physical and chemical selection.

These developments suggest that natural selection may be grounded
in physical law more deeply than is allowed by advocates of the
autonomy of biology, while still making it possible to deny,
with autonomists, that evolutionary explanations can be modeled
in terms of a deductive relationship between laws and cases.

We explore the relationship between, chance, self-organization,
and selection as sources of order in biological systems in order
to make these points.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00127471

Self-Organization in Artificial Intelligence and the Brain

Ananth Ranganathan, Zsolt Kira
College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology
Atlanta, GA 30332

Abstract— Self-organization is one of the few
theories that can explain significant aspects of
developmental neuroscience. Within the brain itself, various
spatially organized regions, or maps, exist that emerge
dynamically.

Theories and models that use self-organization have
been successful at explaining such phenomena, and while
these are not conclusive proof, they provide strong
evidence in favor of self-organized mechanisms in the brain.

Artificial Neural Networks have been developed
that make use of these models to produce pattern
recognition and classification mechanisms that have been
used in widely diverse fields. This paper describes some
of the models used to explain the emergence of various
patterns and maps in the brain and their counterparts
in the Neural Network domain. Widely used Neural
Network algorithms include the Self-Organized Map
and Adaptive Resonance Theory, that are discussed herein.
https://www.cc.gatech.edu/~zk15/papers/KiraRangSelfOrg.pdf

Self-organization as a concept in art
Arina Mozzherikova, 2018

So what?

Art reveals the discrete nature of science, exposing
fundamental representations, in the search for
unconventional aesthetic processes
https://www.uni-weimar.de/kunst-und-gestaltung/wiki/images/Self_organization_as_a_concept_in_art.pdf

Thanks for reading

The Spider as an Artist
Has never been employed—
Though his surpassing Merit
Is freely certified

By every Broom and Bridget
Throughout a Christian Land—
Neglected Son of Genius
I take thee by the Hand—

~ E Dickinson

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:

[snip]

> By every Broom and Bridget
> Throughout a Christian Land—

WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.

Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!

--
Kevin R

On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>
>> By every Broom and Bridget
>> Throughout a Christian Land—
>
>WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
>as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
>as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.
>
>Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
>And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!

Ah ... the perils of reading anything -- anything at all -- from the
past. Well, the last few centuries, anyway.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 8/25/2021 1:31 AM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>> By every Broom and Bridget
>> Throughout a Christian Land—
>
> WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
> as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
> as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.
>
> Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
> And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!
>

Didn't know that, was wondering what that term meant.
Since it came after broom assumed it was some
other kitchen instrument used to get those pesky
spiders out.

And that would mean she's associating Irish cleaning ladies
with a broom, like you said not very woke at all.

But hopefully she was using this meaning of the
term, the goddess of Poetry.

Bridget

Anglicized form of the Irish name Brighid meaning "exalted one".
In Irish mythology this was the name of the goddess of fire, poetry
and wisdom, the daughter of the god Dagda.
https://www.behindthename.com/name/bridget

I wonder what it was like for such a brilliant
women, and a lesbian, to live in the 19th century?
Shut out of science /and/ society.

"They shut me up in Prose
As when a little Girl
They put me in the Closet
Because they liked me “still”

Still! Could themself have peeped
And seen my Brain – go round
They might as wise have lodged a Bird
For Treason – in the Pound"

..............

"I showed her Heights
she never saw
"Would'st climb," I said?
She said - "Not so"
"With me -" I said
with me?

I showed her Secrets
Morning's Nest
The Rope the Nights
were put across
And now - "Would'st
have me for a Guest"?
She could not find her Yes"

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 8/25/2021 12:45 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>> By every Broom and Bridget
>>> Throughout a Christian Land—
>>
>> WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
>> as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
>> as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.
>>
>> Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
>> And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!
>
> Ah ... the perils of reading anything -- anything at all -- from the
> past. Well, the last few centuries, anyway.
>

That's especially true for religious writing, much of it
uses metaphors to explain ideas, so taking such writing
literally can lead to all kinds of problems.

For instance the Catholic Encyclopedia describes
anyone that believes God to be some wise old man
waving a magic wand to be 'rude and uncultured'
and of below average intelligence.

And you can tell they're being...polite when they
say that.

Nature and Attributes of God

(ii) Yet sometimes men are led by a natural tendency to think and
speak of God as if He were a magnified creature — more especially
a magnified man — and this is known as anthropomorphism. Thus God
is said to see or hear, as if He had physical organs, or to be
angry or sorry, as if subject to human passions: and this
perfectly legitimate and more or less unavoidable use of metaphor
is often quite unfairly alleged to prove that the strictly Infinite
is unthinkable and unknowable, and that it is really a
finite anthropomorphic God that men worship.

But whatever truth there may be in this charge as applied
to Polytheistic religions, or even to the Theistic beliefs
of rude and uncultured minds, it is untrue and unjust
when directed against philosophical Theism. The same reasons
that justify and recommend the use of metaphorical language
in other connections justify and recommended it here, but
no Theist of average intelligence ever thinks of understanding
literally the metaphors he applies, or hears applied by others,
to God, any more than he means to speak literally when
he calls a brave man a lion, or a cunning one a fox.
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

"When we read the account of Creation in Genesis we risk
imagining that God was a magician, complete with an
all powerful magic wand. But that was not so.
He created beings and he let them develop according
to the internal laws with which He endowed each one,
that they might develop, and reach their fullness."
https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/09/22/442486129/the-true-meaning-behind-the-popes-rejection-of-god-as-magician

~Pope Francis

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 5:59:52 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
> On 8/25/2021 1:31 AM, Kevrob wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >
> >> By every Broom and Bridget
> >> Throughout a Christian Land—
> >
> > WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
> > as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
> > as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.
> >
> > Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
> > And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!
> >
> Didn't know that, was wondering what that term meant.
> Since it came after broom assumed it was some
> other kitchen instrument used to get those pesky
> spiders out.
>
> And that would mean she's associating Irish cleaning ladies
> with a broom, like you said not very woke at all.
>
> But hopefully she was using this meaning of the
> term, the goddess of Poetry.
>
> Bridget
>
> Anglicized form of the Irish name Brighid meaning "exalted one".
> In Irish mythology this was the name of the goddess of fire, poetry
> and wisdom, the daughter of the god Dagda.
> https://www.behindthename.com/name/bridget

The Irishwomen given that name would ostensibly have this lady for
a namesake:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_of_Kildare

In some cases, there could have been a bit of hiding of
the Old Religion under the New.

--
Kevin R

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:35:55 -0400, Jonathan <MailInstead@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On 8/25/2021 12:45 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Aug 2021 22:31:15 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>> By every Broom and Bridget
>>>> Throughout a Christian Land—
>>>
>>> WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
>>> as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
>>> as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.
>>>
>>> Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
>>> And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!
>>
>> Ah ... the perils of reading anything -- anything at all -- from the
>> past. Well, the last few centuries, anyway.
>>
>
>
>That's especially true for religious writing, much of it
>uses metaphors to explain ideas, so taking such writing
>literally can lead to all kinds of problems.

While demonstrably reasonable, the problem with that approach is that
the Bible (or whatever) then comes to mean /whatever you think it
means, metaphorically/.

And, classically, Christianity had (IIRC) at least /five/ different
"modes" of interpretation, only one of which was literal.

>For instance the Catholic Encyclopedia describes
>anyone that believes God to be some wise old man
>waving a magic wand to be 'rude and uncultured'
>and of below average intelligence.

IIRC, Freud somewhere stated that a person who listens to classical
music at home over the radio (as opposed to going to the concert hall)
was a philistine. That would cover 'rude and uncultured'. Whether it
included 'below average intelligence' I have no idea.

These are simply the sort of things well-educated/highly cultured
people say of The Rest of Us (AKA The Great Unwashed). And very
likely, in RC terms, a Mortal Sin -- specifically, Pride.

In the mid-50s, Tillich (a theologian) expressed himself appalled at
how quickly Germany, "the most cultured Nation in the History of the
Planet", had descended into Barbarism. What he, being
well-educated/highly cultured, had never realized was that the
well-educated/highly cultured superior specimens were a thin crust on
top of a much larger mass of people. People who didn't have far to go
to become Barbarians, as it turned out.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 23:17:27 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob <kevrob@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Thursday, August 26, 2021 at 5:59:52 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
>> On 8/25/2021 1:31 AM, Kevrob wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, August 24, 2021 at 11:04:51 PM UTC-4, Jonathan wrote:
>> >
>> > [snip]
>> >
>> >
>> >> By every Broom and Bridget
>> >> Throughout a Christian Land—
>> >
>> > WASP-descended Americans of Dickinson's era used "Bridget"
>> > as a term for any Irish-descended domestic worker, and "Pat"
>> > as her male counterpart working in the stables or carrying a hod.
>> >
>> > Not very "woke" of our Transcendentalist poetess, was it?
>> > And dubbing the USA a "Christian Land?" How could she!
>> >
>> Didn't know that, was wondering what that term meant.
>> Since it came after broom assumed it was some
>> other kitchen instrument used to get those pesky
>> spiders out.
>>
>> And that would mean she's associating Irish cleaning ladies
>> with a broom, like you said not very woke at all.
>>
>> But hopefully she was using this meaning of the
>> term, the goddess of Poetry.
>>
>> Bridget
>>
>> Anglicized form of the Irish name Brighid meaning "exalted one".
>> In Irish mythology this was the name of the goddess of fire, poetry
>> and wisdom, the daughter of the god Dagda.
>> https://www.behindthename.com/name/bridget
>
>The Irishwomen given that name would ostensibly have this lady for
>a namesake:
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid_of_Kildare
>
>In some cases, there could have been a bit of hiding of
>the Old Religion under the New.

Well, that's one way to convert entire nations: baptize the elements
of the old religion so the deities become Saints and the Festivals
continue on, perhaps a bit sanitized, as before.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."