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arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

SubjectAuthor
* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsWolfBear
`* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsGraham Truesdale
 `* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsSolomonW
  `* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsGraham Truesdale
   `* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsChrysi Cat
    +* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsWolfBear
    |`* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
    | `* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsWolfBear
    |  +* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsChrysi Cat
    |  |+- Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsdama...@gmail.com
    |  |`- Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsWolfBear
    |  `- Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
    `* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsRich Rostrom
     `* Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
      `- Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questionsRich Rostrom

1
Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Sat, 3 Apr 2021 06:47 UTC

On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 10:10:20 AM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> On Monday, 29 March 2021 at 11:10:25 UTC+1, SolomonW wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >
> > > On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 20:09:08 UTC, WolfBear wrote:
> > >> Here goes:
> > >>
> > >> 1. What if the 1905 Russian Revolution would have actually succeeded in permanently establishing a liberal regime in Russia, either as a genuinely constitutional monarchy along the British model or as a republic?
> > >>
> > >> For instance, just how exactly would a republican Russia have handled its domestic and foreign policies from 1905 onward? I would presume that it would be a strong and natural ally with both Britain and republican France, as guardians of a liberal and democratic constitutional order against the Germanic autocracies. Domestically I could imagine things such as the abolition of the anti-Semitic Pale of Settlement and possibly the abolition of Jewish quotas as well and the passage of land reform in order to get more land into the hands of the Russian peasants. I do wonder if a republican Russia would have been less adventurous in its foreign policies, though--advocating in favor of greater restraint in the Balkans and whatnot.
> > >>
> > >> 2. What if Austria-Hungary would have offered Serbia a deal in 1908 where Austria-Hungary annexes the southernmost Catholic and Croat-majority part of Bosnia whereas Serbia annexes the rest of Bosnia in exchange for Serbia agreeing to sign a binding military alliance with Austria-Hungary for an extremely long time? This would allow both Austria-Hungary and Serbia to score some territorial gains and would also result in a political situation that would likely be pleasant and satisfactory to both of them but possibly not to Russia, who might respond to this by increasing its support of Bulgaria.
> > >>
> > > As of 1914, the Russian monarchy was one of the most absolutist in Europe, and the British monarchy was one of the most constitutional. The German monarchy was somewhere in between. I think that the most that could realistically have resulted from the 1905 resolution was a Russian monarchy along the lines of the German one, with the Duma resembling the Reichstag and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Russia#1905%E2%80%931917 resembling the Chancellor. You may want to look at the career of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Stolypin and imagine whether he could have helped to bring such a scenario about.
> > Such a Duma would not have supported sending the Russian army to protect
> > Serbia and the German Reichstag have not have seen the Russians as an
> > enemy.
> >
> I suggest that such a Duma would have had as much or as little influence over Russian policy in the July Crisis as the German Reichstag had over German policy in OTL.

So, the Russian Chancellor and Tsar would have still been the main deciders here, eh?

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Sat, 3 Apr 2021 16:53 UTC

On Saturday, 3 April 2021 at 07:47:54 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 10:10:20 AM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > On Monday, 29 March 2021 at 11:10:25 UTC+1, SolomonW wrote:
> > > On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 20:09:08 UTC, WolfBear wrote:
> > > >> Here goes:
> > > >>
> > > >> 1. What if the 1905 Russian Revolution would have actually succeeded in permanently establishing a liberal regime in Russia, either as a genuinely constitutional monarchy along the British model or as a republic?
> > > >>
> > > >> For instance, just how exactly would a republican Russia have handled its domestic and foreign policies from 1905 onward? I would presume that it would be a strong and natural ally with both Britain and republican France, as guardians of a liberal and democratic constitutional order against the Germanic autocracies. Domestically I could imagine things such as the abolition of the anti-Semitic Pale of Settlement and possibly the abolition of Jewish quotas as well and the passage of land reform in order to get more land into the hands of the Russian peasants. I do wonder if a republican Russia would have been less adventurous in its foreign policies, though--advocating in favor of greater restraint in the Balkans and whatnot.
> > > >>
> > > >> 2. What if Austria-Hungary would have offered Serbia a deal in 1908 where Austria-Hungary annexes the southernmost Catholic and Croat-majority part of Bosnia whereas Serbia annexes the rest of Bosnia in exchange for Serbia agreeing to sign a binding military alliance with Austria-Hungary for an extremely long time? This would allow both Austria-Hungary and Serbia to score some territorial gains and would also result in a political situation that would likely be pleasant and satisfactory to both of them but possibly not to Russia, who might respond to this by increasing its support of Bulgaria.
> > > >>
> > > > As of 1914, the Russian monarchy was one of the most absolutist in Europe, and the British monarchy was one of the most constitutional. The German monarchy was somewhere in between. I think that the most that could realistically have resulted from the 1905 resolution was a Russian monarchy along the lines of the German one, with the Duma resembling the Reichstag and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Russia#1905%E2%80%931917 resembling the Chancellor. You may want to look at the career of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Stolypin and imagine whether he could have helped to bring such a scenario about.
> > > Such a Duma would not have supported sending the Russian army to protect
> > > Serbia and the German Reichstag have not have seen the Russians as an
> > > enemy.
> > >
> > I suggest that such a Duma would have had as much or as little influence over Russian policy in the July Crisis as the German Reichstag had over German policy in OTL.
> So, the Russian Chancellor and Tsar would have still been the main deciders here, eh?
>
I think that in Germany the main deciders were not Chancellor Bethmann-Hollweg and Kaiser Wilhelm, but the German military leadership.

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
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 by: SolomonW - Sun, 4 Apr 2021 09:51 UTC

On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale wrote:

> On Saturday, 3 April 2021 at 07:47:54 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
>> On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 10:10:20 AM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>>> On Monday, 29 March 2021 at 11:10:25 UTC+1, SolomonW wrote:
>>> > On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale wrote:
>>> >
>>> > > On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 20:09:08 UTC, WolfBear wrote:
>>> > >> Here goes:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> 1. What if the 1905 Russian Revolution would have actually succeeded in permanently establishing a liberal regime in Russia, either as a genuinely constitutional monarchy along the British model or as a republic?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> For instance, just how exactly would a republican Russia have handled its domestic and foreign policies from 1905 onward? I would presume that it would be a strong and natural ally with both Britain and republican France, as guardians of a liberal and democratic constitutional order against the Germanic autocracies. Domestically I could imagine things such as the abolition of the anti-Semitic Pale of Settlement and possibly the abolition of Jewish quotas as well and the passage of land reform in order to get more land into the hands of the Russian peasants. I do wonder if a republican Russia would have been less adventurous in its foreign policies, though--advocating in favor of greater restraint in the Balkans and whatnot.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> 2. What if Austria-Hungary would have offered Serbia a deal in 1908 where Austria-Hungary annexes the southernmost Catholic and Croat-majority part of Bosnia whereas Serbia annexes the rest of Bosnia in exchange for Serbia agreeing to sign a binding military alliance with Austria-Hungary for an extremely long time? This would allow both Austria-Hungary and Serbia to score some territorial gains and would also result in a political situation that would likely be pleasant and satisfactory to both of them but possibly not to Russia, who might respond to this by increasing its support of Bulgaria.
>>> > >>
>>> > > As of 1914, the Russian monarchy was one of the most absolutist in Europe, and the British monarchy was one of the most constitutional. The German monarchy was somewhere in between. I think that the most that could realistically have resulted from the 1905 resolution was a Russian monarchy along the lines of the German one, with the Duma resembling the Reichstag and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Russia#1905%E2%80%931917 resembling the Chancellor. You may want to look at the career of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Stolypin and imagine whether he could have helped to bring such a scenario about.
>>> > Such a Duma would not have supported sending the Russian army to protect
>>> > Serbia and the German Reichstag have not have seen the Russians as an
>>> > enemy.
>>> >
>>> I suggest that such a Duma would have had as much or as little influence over Russian policy in the July Crisis as the German Reichstag had over German policy in OTL.
>> So, the Russian Chancellor and Tsar would have still been the main deciders here, eh?
>>
> I think that in Germany the main deciders were not Chancellor Bethmann-Hollweg and Kaiser Wilhelm, but the German military leadership.

Not on the decision to go to war over Serbia but certainly on its
direction.

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Sun, 4 Apr 2021 11:43 UTC

On Sunday, 4 April 2021 at 10:51:47 UTC+1, SolomonW wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Apr 2021 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, 3 April 2021 at 07:47:54 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> >> On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 10:10:20 AM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >>> On Monday, 29 March 2021 at 11:10:25 UTC+1, SolomonW wrote:
> >>> > On Thu, 25 Mar 2021 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> > > On Wednesday, 24 March 2021 at 20:09:08 UTC, WolfBear wrote:
> >>> > >> Here goes:
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> 1. What if the 1905 Russian Revolution would have actually succeeded in permanently establishing a liberal regime in Russia, either as a genuinely constitutional monarchy along the British model or as a republic?
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> For instance, just how exactly would a republican Russia have handled its domestic and foreign policies from 1905 onward? I would presume that it would be a strong and natural ally with both Britain and republican France, as guardians of a liberal and democratic constitutional order against the Germanic autocracies. Domestically I could imagine things such as the abolition of the anti-Semitic Pale of Settlement and possibly the abolition of Jewish quotas as well and the passage of land reform in order to get more land into the hands of the Russian peasants. I do wonder if a republican Russia would have been less adventurous in its foreign policies, though--advocating in favor of greater restraint in the Balkans and whatnot.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > >> 2. What if Austria-Hungary would have offered Serbia a deal in 1908 where Austria-Hungary annexes the southernmost Catholic and Croat-majority part of Bosnia whereas Serbia annexes the rest of Bosnia in exchange for Serbia agreeing to sign a binding military alliance with Austria-Hungary for an extremely long time? This would allow both Austria-Hungary and Serbia to score some territorial gains and would also result in a political situation that would likely be pleasant and satisfactory to both of them but possibly not to Russia, who might respond to this by increasing its support of Bulgaria.
> >>> > >>
> >>> > > As of 1914, the Russian monarchy was one of the most absolutist in Europe, and the British monarchy was one of the most constitutional. The German monarchy was somewhere in between. I think that the most that could realistically have resulted from the 1905 resolution was a Russian monarchy along the lines of the German one, with the Duma resembling the Reichstag and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Russia#1905%E2%80%931917 resembling the Chancellor. You may want to look at the career of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Stolypin and imagine whether he could have helped to bring such a scenario about.
> >>> > Such a Duma would not have supported sending the Russian army to protect
> >>> > Serbia and the German Reichstag have not have seen the Russians as an
> >>> > enemy.
> >>> >
> >>> I suggest that such a Duma would have had as much or as little influence over Russian policy in the July Crisis as the German Reichstag had over German policy in OTL.
> >> So, the Russian Chancellor and Tsar would have still been the main deciders here, eh?
> >>
> > I think that in Germany the main deciders were not Chancellor Bethmann-Hollweg and Kaiser Wilhelm, but the German military leadership.
> Not on the decision to go to war over Serbia but certainly on its
> direction.
>
Who were the main deciders in Germany on whether to have/to try to bring about a 'limited war' or a general European war? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#German_thinking "At this time, the German military supported the idea of an Austrian attack against Serbia as the best way of starting a general war, whereas Wilhelm believed that an armed conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia would be purely local." Cites Fromkin, David (2004). Europe's Last Summer: Why the World Went to War in 1914. PP159-60

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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From: chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Sun, 4 Apr 2021 15:50 UTC

On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:

<snip>

>>
> Who were the main deciders in Germany on whether to have/to try to bring about a 'limited war' or a general European war? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Crisis#German_thinking "At this time, the German military supported the idea of an Austrian attack against Serbia as the best way of starting a general war, whereas Wilhelm believed that an armed conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia would be purely local." Cites Fromkin, David (2004). Europe's Last Summer: Why the World Went to War in 1914. PP159-60
>

Wow. Somehow, this is the first time--or at the very least, the first
time I *remember*--that I ever learned that the German military was
intentionally angling for a general war, but the Kaiser believed it
could remain limited.

That certainly argues in favour of "destroy the Germain military and
imprison any general officers who can't be proven to have been against
the Blank Cheque", but it ALSO seems to suggest that destroying the
monarchy at the end of the war could possibly have been the very worst
response--the Kaiser was proven to be an IDIOT in terms of international
relations, the way I interpret that statement, but not directly guilty
of seeking a world war.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Sun, 4 Apr 2021 20:04 UTC

On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >>
> > Who were the main deciders in Germany on whether to have/to try to bring about a 'limited war' or a general European war? See https://en.wikipedia..org/wiki/July_Crisis#German_thinking "At this time, the German military supported the idea of an Austrian attack against Serbia as the best way of starting a general war, whereas Wilhelm believed that an armed conflict between Austria-Hungary and Serbia would be purely local." Cites Fromkin, David (2004). Europe's Last Summer: Why the World Went to War in 1914. PP159-60
> >
> Wow. Somehow, this is the first time--or at the very least, the first
> time I *remember*--that I ever learned that the German military was
> intentionally angling for a general war, but the Kaiser believed it
> could remain limited.
>
> That certainly argues in favour of "destroy the Germain military and
> imprison any general officers who can't be proven to have been against
> the Blank Cheque", but it ALSO seems to suggest that destroying the
> monarchy at the end of the war could possibly have been the very worst
> response--the Kaiser was proven to be an IDIOT in terms of international
> relations, the way I interpret that statement, but not directly guilty
> of seeking a world war.
>
>
> --
> Chrysi Cat
> 1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
> Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
> Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:12 UTC

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
>> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.

Well the catch is that wasn't really the choice at Versailles.

As of the Versailles conference the Kaiser had already abdicated and
fled the country to Holland and taken his family with him. In most
countries this would be taken as "I abdicate both for myself and for
my heirs"

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Mon, 5 Apr 2021 07:52 UTC

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:13:01 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> >> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.
> Well the catch is that wasn't really the choice at Versailles.
>
> As of the Versailles conference the Kaiser had already abdicated and
> fled the country to Holland and taken his family with him. In most
> countries this would be taken as "I abdicate both for myself and for
> my heirs"

Had Woodrow Wilson not called for the Kaiser's removal in October-November 1918, though, might the German Revolution have been prevented?

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
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From: chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Mon, 5 Apr 2021 11:34 UTC

On 4/5/2021 1:52 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:13:01 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
>>>> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>>> I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.
>> Well the catch is that wasn't really the choice at Versailles.
>>
>> As of the Versailles conference the Kaiser had already abdicated and
>> fled the country to Holland and taken his family with him. In most
>> countries this would be taken as "I abdicate both for myself and for
>> my heirs"
>
> Had Woodrow Wilson not called for the Kaiser's removal in October-November 1918, though, might the German Revolution have been prevented?
>

Am I the only one who thinks this basically requires Wilson to NOT at
least get re-elected, and preferably fail to be elected in the first
place? His anti-monarchism is kind of his number-two defining
characteristic behind "feels the wrong side was victorious in the Late
Unpleasantness".

Though what I can't figure out is why the average German, upon learning
of Wilson's demand, helped give him what he wanted. The US "was", (since
at the time they were the most united they would ever be), very MUCH the
junior partner in the alliance--and I'm not sure you could even still
call it the Entente once the US got entangled. In a sane world, he
wouldn't have had so much power over the English, the French, and
ESPECIALLY the Japanese--nor any influence over civilian Germany.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Mon, 5 Apr 2021 15:10 UTC

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 00:52:10 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:13:01 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
>> >> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>> >I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.
>> Well the catch is that wasn't really the choice at Versailles.
>>
>> As of the Versailles conference the Kaiser had already abdicated and
>> fled the country to Holland and taken his family with him. In most
>> countries this would be taken as "I abdicate both for myself and for
>> my heirs"
>
>Had Woodrow Wilson not called for the Kaiser's removal in October-November 1918, though, might the German Revolution have been prevented?

I would argue the cries for 'Hang the Kaiser!" had at least as much
influence particularly when German fell into revolution.

Ebert didn't have complete control of Germany when he told the German
troops doing a march past in Berlin in December 1918 that they had NOT
been defeated. (Many consider that speech the origin of the
"dolchstoss" myth later on)

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
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 by: dama...@gmail.com - Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:08 UTC

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 7:34:50 AM UTC-4, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> On 4/5/2021 1:52 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> > On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:13:01 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> >>>> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >>> I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.
> >> Well the catch is that wasn't really the choice at Versailles.
> >>
> >> As of the Versailles conference the Kaiser had already abdicated and
> >> fled the country to Holland and taken his family with him. In most
> >> countries this would be taken as "I abdicate both for myself and for
> >> my heirs"
> >
> > Had Woodrow Wilson not called for the Kaiser's removal in October-November 1918, though, might the German Revolution have been prevented?
> >
> Am I the only one who thinks this basically requires Wilson to NOT at
> least get re-elected, and preferably fail to be elected in the first
> place? His anti-monarchism is kind of his number-two defining
> characteristic behind "feels the wrong side was victorious in the Late
> Unpleasantness".
>
> Though what I can't figure out is why the average German, upon learning
> of Wilson's demand, helped give him what he wanted. The US "was", (since
> at the time they were the most united they would ever be), very MUCH the
> junior partner in the alliance--and I'm not sure you could even still
> call it the Entente once the US got entangled. In a sane world, he
> wouldn't have had so much power over the English, the French, and
> ESPECIALLY the Japanese--nor any influence over civilian Germany.
> --
> Chrysi Cat
> 1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
> Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
> Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

I disagree on the US being a "junior" partner. Maybe the US was inexperienced on international matters but by 1914 it was very much an economic power. By 1918 (or perhaps a few years earlier) it was also the #2 naval power which gave huge influence over Japan and Great Britain. As for the latter, I suspect they recognized the US as a great power during the Civil War when the two sides poured immense armies into the field. By 1898, you could see Britain actively taking the US side in the short scuffle with Spain. The Germans also had to at least see that trend even if they didn't accept it.

Dean

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2021 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Mon, 5 Apr 2021 19:20 UTC

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 4:34:50 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> On 4/5/2021 1:52 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> > On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:13:01 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >> On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, April 4, 2021 at 8:50:27 AM UTC-7, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> >>>> On 4/4/2021 5:43 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >>> I'd argue that abolishing the German monarchy made more sense if one is hostile to the idea of monarchy in general due to monarchy being an anti-egalitarian concept.
> >> Well the catch is that wasn't really the choice at Versailles.
> >>
> >> As of the Versailles conference the Kaiser had already abdicated and
> >> fled the country to Holland and taken his family with him. In most
> >> countries this would be taken as "I abdicate both for myself and for
> >> my heirs"
> >
> > Had Woodrow Wilson not called for the Kaiser's removal in October-November 1918, though, might the German Revolution have been prevented?
> >
> Am I the only one who thinks this basically requires Wilson to NOT at
> least get re-elected, and preferably fail to be elected in the first
> place? His anti-monarchism is kind of his number-two defining
> characteristic behind "feels the wrong side was victorious in the Late
> Unpleasantness".
>
> Though what I can't figure out is why the average German, upon learning
> of Wilson's demand, helped give him what he wanted. The US "was", (since
> at the time they were the most united they would ever be), very MUCH the
> junior partner in the alliance--and I'm not sure you could even still
> call it the Entente once the US got entangled. In a sane world, he
> wouldn't have had so much power over the English, the French, and
> ESPECIALLY the Japanese--nor any influence over civilian Germany.
> --
> Chrysi Cat
> 1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
> Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
> Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

I'm not sure that it was so much Germans consciously giving Wilson what he wanted so much as Germans not wanting to continue to be cannon fodder any longer, especially once the German naval leadership ordered German sailors to engage in a last-ditch suicidal naval battle with the British and they refused, not wanting to sacrifice their lives when the war was already lost. This wasn't like Nazi Germany in World War II, where Hitler's brutal iron grip and discipline ensured that everyone in Germany would fight up to the bitter end--or else get either jail or shot.

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

<rrostrom-A01165.02101412042021@reader02.eternal-september.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=5911&group=alt.history.what-if#5911

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 02:10:19 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Mon, 12 Apr 2021 07:10 UTC

Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow. Somehow, this is the first time--or at the very least, the first
> time I *remember*--that I ever learned that the German military was
> intentionally angling for a general war, but the Kaiser believed it
> could remain limited.

Wilhelm may not have expected the Serbian crisis to
lead to a general war. But he had been thinking
about such a war - I would say dreaming about it.
I recall reading in _The Guns of August_ of his
speaking to Austrian leaders about the need to put
"Slavdom" in its place, and how Germany's�sword
would back Austria in this.

TGoA also tells how during a state visit by the
King of Belgium, Wilhelm subjected the visitor
to a wild diatribe.

Wilhelm insisted that the insidious French were
plotting war against Germany, but of course the
mighty German army would destroy them when war
came. He warned the King that Belgium must not
obstruct Germany in its campaign or Belgium
would be destroyed too.

So ISTM that Wilhelm was expecting a general
war in which Germany would crush France and
Russia.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerd�s.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 14 Apr 2021 15:19 UTC

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 02:10:19 -0500, Rich Rostrom
<rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:

>Wilhelm insisted that the insidious French were
>plotting war against Germany, but of course the
>mighty German army would destroy them when war
>came. He warned the King that Belgium must not
>obstruct Germany in its campaign or Belgium
>would be destroyed too.
>
Just curious - when exactly did he say this? Because Germany demanded
free passage across Belgium to attack France in 1914 but that was a
non-starter from the beginning as once Germany is occupying Belgium
why would they leave? It's basically a demand for surrender.

Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions

<rrostrom-212F74.22003215042021@reader02.eternal-september.org>

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two early 20th century alternate history questions
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 22:00:32 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Fri, 16 Apr 2021 03:00 UTC

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> Just curious - when exactly did he say this?

November 1913, according to Tuchman. Moltke
also lent his voice; he was the one who spoke
of how Germany would annihilate France.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerd�s.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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