Here is another one:
Record date: 29 juillet 2016 / Publish date: 24 mars 2023
Gábor Takács-Nagy direction / VERBIER FESTIVAL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA
On Deutsche Grammophon

"No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
something powerful to say [....]"

https://www.colinscolumn.com/released-today-verbier-festival-gold-
presents-an-epic-honest-multi-decade-voyage-through-the-symphonies-with-
quartet-legend-gabor-takacs-nagy-at-the-helm/

You can hear fragments here:

https://www.verbierfestival.com/stream/verbier-festival-gold-the-
symphonies-a-beethoven-journey/

korentube:

No.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofVpUrBDOJQ

No.9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCt-ui78iIs

Chris

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, Chris J. wrote:
>
>
> "No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
> hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
> Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
> symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
> something powerful to say [....]"

Stockholm Syndrome.

On 7/23/2023 9:12 AM, Chris J. wrote:
> Here is another one:
> Record date: 29 juillet 2016 / Publish date: 24 mars 2023
> Gábor Takács-Nagy direction / VERBIER FESTIVAL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA
> On Deutsche Grammophon
>
> "No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
> hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
> Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
> symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
> something powerful to say [....]"
>
> https://www.colinscolumn.com/released-today-verbier-festival-gold-
> presents-an-epic-honest-multi-decade-voyage-through-the-symphonies-with-
> quartet-legend-gabor-takacs-nagy-at-the-helm/
>
> You can hear fragments here:
>
> https://www.verbierfestival.com/stream/verbier-festival-gold-the-
> symphonies-a-beethoven-journey/
>
> korentube:
>
> No.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofVpUrBDOJQ
>
> No.9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCt-ui78iIs
>
>
> Chris

In graduate school I learned that there is virtually no such thing as "needs." There are only "wants." Even things that we could agree are really needs, like food,l water, air are only "needed" in order to stay alive. So the question, "How many Beethoven symphony cycles do we need" is really nonsensical. If the producers think they can make a profit by recording a new cycle it will be produced. YOU (or I) may think its unnecessary or a waster of resources, but if enough people buy it, our opinion is irrelevant.

On 7/23/2023 10:50 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 3:12:30 PM UTC+2, Chris J. wrote:
>>
>>
>> "No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
>> hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
>> Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
>> symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
>> something powerful to say [....]"
>
> Stockholm Syndrome.

Huh? There's no captor nor victim here. Just people making choices.

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 8:12:30 AM UTC-5, Chris J. wrote:
> Here is another one:
> Record date: 29 juillet 2016 / Publish date: 24 mars 2023
> Gábor Takács-Nagy direction / VERBIER FESTIVAL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA
> On Deutsche Grammophon
>
> "No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
> hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
> Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
> symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
> something powerful to say [....]"
>
> https://www.colinscolumn.com/released-today-verbier-festival-gold-
> presents-an-epic-honest-multi-decade-voyage-through-the-symphonies-with-
> quartet-legend-gabor-takacs-nagy-at-the-helm/
>
> You can hear fragments here:
>
> https://www.verbierfestival.com/stream/verbier-festival-gold-the-
> symphonies-a-beethoven-journey/
>
> korentube:
>
> No.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofVpUrBDOJQ
>
> No.9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCt-ui78iIs
>
>
> Chris

He waves his arms pretty. 3 sounds pretty great to me so far, even though I keep hearing digital tics. Maybe I need to reboot.

On Sunday, 23 July 2023 at 17:10:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> In graduate school I learned that there is virtually no such thing as "needs."

It depends how you use the word.

Had you been studying psychology you would certainly have come across Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, much loved as a reference in student essays.

On 7/23/2023 3:07 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Sunday, 23 July 2023 at 17:10:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>> In graduate school I learned that there is virtually no such thing as "needs."
>
> It depends how you use the word.
>
> Had you been studying psychology you would certainly have come across Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, much loved as a reference in student essays.
>
>
>

Had I studied that instead of economics, and the teacher was good, I might have bought it. Can't really say. But as it is, I'm inclined to think of it as preposterous. Perhaps I'll give it a look. That would be fair, I suppose.

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 6:12:30 AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> Here is another one:
> Record date: 29 juillet 2016 / Publish date: 24 mars 2023
> Gábor Takács-Nagy direction / VERBIER FESTIVAL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA
> On Deutsche Grammophon
>
> "No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
> hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
> Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
> symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
> something powerful to say [....]"
>
> https://www.colinscolumn.com/released-today-verbier-festival-gold-
> presents-an-epic-honest-multi-decade-voyage-through-the-symphonies-with-
> quartet-legend-gabor-takacs-nagy-at-the-helm/
>
> You can hear fragments here:
>
> https://www.verbierfestival.com/stream/verbier-festival-gold-the-
> symphonies-a-beethoven-journey/
>
> korentube:
>
> No.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofVpUrBDOJQ
>
> No.9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCt-ui78iIs
>
>
> Chris

Didn't Karajan record 4 cycles?

On 7/23/2023 5:07 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/23/2023 3:07 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> On Sunday, 23 July 2023 at 17:10:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>> In graduate school I learned that there is virtually no such thing as "needs."
>>
>> It depends how you use the word.
>>
>> Had you been studying psychology you would certainly have come across Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, much loved as a reference in student essays.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Had I studied that instead of economics, and the teacher was good, I might have bought it.  Can't really say.  But as it is, I'm inclined to think of it as preposterous.  Perhaps I'll give it a look.  That would be fair, I suppose.

I read an online summary. It's as ridiculous as I supposed. Even the psychology community seems to have rejected it. To the extent the model has been tested (and I know little about the testing methodology) the results are inconsistent with the supposed hierarchy. It seems statistically invalid from the get-go, arbitrarily identifying people he considered to be self-actualized and then examining their characteristics. It's backwards science. Eleanor Roosevelt and Mother Teresa had great accomplishments, no doubt, but is Eleanor looking the other way when Franklin was philandering a sign of self-actualization or weakness? I have nothing to say about Mother Theresa.

I'd say that Maslow's Hierarchy is about as scientific as the Myers-Briggs personality model or John Wooden's Pyramid of Success.

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 4:00:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 7/23/2023 5:07 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
> > On 7/23/2023 3:07 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> >> On Sunday, 23 July 2023 at 17:10:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> >>> In graduate school I learned that there is virtually no such thing as "needs."
> >>
> >> It depends how you use the word.
> >>
> >> Had you been studying psychology you would certainly have come across Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs, much loved as a reference in student essays.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Had I studied that instead of economics, and the teacher was good, I might have bought it. Can't really say. But as it is, I'm inclined to think of it as preposterous. Perhaps I'll give it a look. That would be fair, I suppose.
> I read an online summary. It's as ridiculous as I supposed. Even the psychology community seems to have rejected it. To the extent the model has been tested (and I know little about the testing methodology) the results are inconsistent with the supposed hierarchy. It seems statistically invalid from the get-go, arbitrarily identifying people he considered to be self-actualized and then examining their characteristics. It's backwards science. Eleanor Roosevelt and Mother Teresa had great accomplishments, no doubt, but is Eleanor looking the other way when Franklin was philandering a sign of self-actualization or weakness? I have nothing to say about Mother Theresa.
>
> I'd say that Maslow's Hierarchy is about as scientific as the Myers-Briggs personality model or John Wooden's Pyramid of Success.

https://www.google.com/search?q=maslow+wrong&source=hp&ei=t7K9ZKfZKqfKkPIP8tKx4A0&iflsig=AD69kcEAAAAAZL3Ax0RGdHF80nSiJrTHPEOjr5NxUAhs&ved=0ahUKEwjnkI6C-aWAAxUnJUQIHXJpDNwQ4dUDCAs&uact=5&oq=maslow+wrong&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IgxtYXNsb3cgd3JvbmcyBRAhGKABMgUQIRifBTIFECEYnwVIkRFQAFjZD3AAeACQAQCYAY8BoAHTB6oBAzkuM7gBA8gBAPgBAcICCxAuGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIREC4YgAQYsQMYgwEYxwEY0QPCAggQABiABBixA8ICCxAAGIAEGLEDGIMBwgIIEC4YgAQYsQPCAgUQLhiABMICFBAuGIAEGLEDGIMBGMkDGMcBGNEDwgIIEAAYigUYkgPCAg4QLhiABBixAxjHARjRA8ICCxAAGIoFGLEDGIMBwgIFEAAYgATCAggQLhixAxiABMICCxAuGIAEGMcBGNEDwgIUEC4YgAQYsQMYxwEYrwEYmAUYmQXCAggQLhiABBjlBMICBxAAGIAEGAo&sclient=gws-wiz#ip=1

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 6:12:30 AM UTC-7, Chris J. wrote:
> Here is another one:
> Record date: 29 juillet 2016 / Publish date: 24 mars 2023
> Gábor Takács-Nagy direction / VERBIER FESTIVAL CHAMBER ORCHESTRA
> On Deutsche Grammophon
>
> "No one needs another Beethoven Symphonic Cycle. There are close to two
> hundred of them in the catalogue already. Our decision to create one with
> Gábor and the VFCO only arrived after he had conducted five of the
> symphonies in concert. We simply could not ignore the fact that he had
> something powerful to say [....]"
>
> https://www.colinscolumn.com/released-today-verbier-festival-gold-
> presents-an-epic-honest-multi-decade-voyage-through-the-symphonies-with-
> quartet-legend-gabor-takacs-nagy-at-the-helm/
>
> You can hear fragments here:
>
> https://www.verbierfestival.com/stream/verbier-festival-gold-the-
> symphonies-a-beethoven-journey/
>
> korentube:
>
> No.3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofVpUrBDOJQ
>
> No.9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCt-ui78iIs
>
>
> Chris

https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html

On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 00:00:52 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> I'd say that Maslow's Hierarchy is about as scientific as the Myers-Briggs personality model or John Wooden's Pyramid of Success.

You'd have to understand psychology to see the utility of such measures. It's easy to throw stones when you don't know what you're talking about.

In the world of psychology there are several tools that are used for further exploration of personality traits or other measures. Another is the Rorschach and various other tools like creativity tests. Read Wiki on "projective tests" for instance. What you do is discuss the results with your client using the guidance in the test manuals plus your own experience as a psychologist. The tests themselves may not be more than 70% accurate in scientific terms, but that's not the point. They are used to generate further information when they are correctly used. The Myers Briggs has a thick manual and a lot of other literature. Incorrectly used and used by non-psychologists they are of little use, e.g. in online tests. But that's a whole other usage.

On 7/24/2023 6:27 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 00:00:52 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> I'd say that Maslow's Hierarchy is about as scientific as the Myers-Briggs personality model or John Wooden's Pyramid of Success.
>
> You'd have to understand psychology to see the utility of such measures. It's easy to throw stones when you don't know what you're talking about.
>
> In the world of psychology there are several tools that are used for further exploration of personality traits or other measures. Another is the Rorschach and various other tools like creativity tests. Read Wiki on "projective tests" for instance. What you do is discuss the results with your client using the guidance in the test manuals plus your own experience as a psychologist. The tests themselves may not be more than 70% accurate in scientific terms, but that's not the point. They are used to generate further information when they are correctly used. The Myers Briggs has a thick manual and a lot of other literature. Incorrectly used and used by non-psychologists they are of little use, e.g. in online tests. But that's a whole other usage.

I'm reading you loud and clear. In the discipline (and I use the word loosely) of psychology, you make use of models that have no empirical validity. Like chiropractic.

On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 15:13:31 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> I'm reading you loud and clear. In the discipline (and I use the word loosely) of psychology, you make use of models that have no empirical validity.. Like chiropractic.

Neither loud nor clear - you don't get it at all despite the fact that I've given you a concise enough account of how such instruments are used. The important part is that such tests are designed to be used in conjunction with client feedback. I'm a retired academic psychologist and authorised BPS test user with 30 years extensive experience and I assure you I could write pages and pages on psychological testing, which I'm not going to do here. I don't expect you to understand projective methods because they require vision, creativity and an open mind, none of which you have demonstrated in the past unless you are hiding them away somewhere.

Since your choice is to remain ignorant of psychology, then go ahead and write whatever you like. Maybe you'd like to compare psychology to sunbathing or making cheese?

On 7/24/2023 10:41 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 15:13:31 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> I'm reading you loud and clear. In the discipline (and I use the word loosely) of psychology, you make use of models that have no empirical validity. Like chiropractic.
>
> Neither loud nor clear - you don't get it at all despite the fact that I've given you a concise enough account of how such instruments are used. The important part is that such tests are designed to be used in conjunction with client feedback. I'm a retired academic psychologist and authorised BPS test user with 30 years extensive experience and I assure you I could write pages and pages on psychological testing, which I'm not going to do here. I don't expect you to understand projective methods because they require vision, creativity and an open mind, none of which you have demonstrated in the past unless you are hiding them away somewhere.
>
> Since your choice is to remain ignorant of psychology, then go ahead and write whatever you like. Maybe you'd like to compare psychology to sunbathing or making cheese?

I have great respect for psychology in general and for some therapists. One of them saved my parent's marriage. I don't care how "such instruments are used." if they have no empirical validity then it's quackery.

On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 16:53:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> I have great respect for psychology in general and for some therapists. One of them saved my parent's marriage. I don't care how "such instruments are used." if they have no empirical validity then it's quackery.

It's like talking to a gate post......

On 7/24/2023 11:55 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 16:53:30 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> I have great respect for psychology in general and for some therapists. One of them saved my parent's marriage. I don't care how "such instruments are used." if they have no empirical validity then it's quackery.
>
> It's like talking to a gate post......

Says the gatepost: If the instrument has no empirical validity, then it is the skill of the therapist who helps the patient. He doesn't need the instrument.

On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 23:14:06 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> > It's like talking to a gate post......
> Says the gatepost: If the instrument has no empirical validity, then it is the skill of the therapist who helps the patient. He doesn't need the instrument.

Tests are used by psychologists with test certificates, not usually by therapists so you are continuing to parade your utter ignorance as if it were some kind of badge of honour.

I've just told you twice that properly administered tests give a psychologist extra information which can be of value. If they didn't they wouldn't be used so widely. Such tests don't have zero validity, that's a meaningless statement. As I have told you twice the validity is around 70% in most cases, which is why they are used correctly in conjunction with feedback from the client, who expands on his/her answers and this process then takes the exploratory dialogue a stage further and also gives the client the chance to reconsider some of his/her answers. I've already told you this twice.

My God, you'd get a higher level of understanding out of a child of six..........

On 7/24/2023 7:11 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Monday, 24 July 2023 at 23:14:06 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>>> It's like talking to a gate post......
>> Says the gatepost: If the instrument has no empirical validity, then it is the skill of the therapist who helps the patient. He doesn't need the instrument.
>
> Tests are used by psychologists with test certificates, not usually by therapists so you are continuing to parade your utter ignorance as if it were some kind of badge of honour.
>
> I've just told you twice that properly administered tests give a psychologist extra information which can be of value. If they didn't they wouldn't be used so widely. Such tests don't have zero validity, that's a meaningless statement. As I have told you twice the validity is around 70% in most cases, which is why they are used correctly in conjunction with feedback from the client, who expands on his/her answers and this process then takes the exploratory dialogue a stage further and also gives the client the chance to reconsider some of his/her answers. I've already told you this twice.
>
> My God, you'd get a higher level of understanding out of a child of six.........

If it makes you feel good to disparage me, I feel sorry for you.

I am referring to the Maslow Hierarchy, you may remember. Scientific evaluation has rejected the validity of a hierarchy. Maslow's main contribution seems to be that his model suggests that students will learn better if they are not starving. Some of what he wrote is ludicrous, some is tautological. It simply can not be of real value unless the empirical evaluations are wrong.
It's easy to find chiropractic patients who swear they are made better off by buzzing machines. My only evidence about what chiropractors think comes from the one and only chiropractor I have known, who closed his practice and went to medical school because, he said, he was tired of making a living being a crook.

If I am not listening to you, neither are you listening to me. But then, you very rarely do.

On Tuesday, 25 July 2023 at 02:25:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

> If I am not listening to you, neither are you listening to me. But then, you very rarely do.

I read the bigoted, narrow minded crap you write about several subjects, many of which you know very little about.

Taking you seriously would be a whole other question, and in most cases a step too far........

On 7/25/2023 4:39 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Tuesday, 25 July 2023 at 02:25:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> If I am not listening to you, neither are you listening to me. But then, you very rarely do.
>
> I read the bigoted, narrow minded crap you write about several subjects, many of which you know very little about.
>
> Taking you seriously would be a whole other question, and in most cases a step too far........

You are not a nice person. Again with the vague critical remarks. Never anything specific that we could discuss. Hit and run Andy. That's your MO.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2023, Frank Berger wrote:

> On 7/25/2023 4:39 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 25 July 2023 at 02:25:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>
>>> If I am not listening to you, neither are you listening to me. But then,
>>> you very rarely do.
>>
>> I read the bigoted, narrow minded crap you write about several subjects,
>> many of which you know very little about.
>>
>> Taking you seriously would be a whole other question, and in most cases a
>> step too far........
>
> You are not a nice person. Again with the vague critical remarks. Never
> anything specific that we could discuss. Hit and run Andy. That's your MO.

Well, he is certainly not being nice to you, but I would still say that your
generalization (not a nice person) is not warranted. No angels here.

As for this thread, see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F
--
Al Eisner

On 7/25/2023 5:17 PM, Al Eisner wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023, Frank Berger wrote:
>
>> On 7/25/2023 4:39 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 25 July 2023 at 02:25:25 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I am not listening to you, neither are you listening to me. But then, you very rarely do.
>>>
>>> I read the bigoted, narrow minded crap you write about several subjects, many of which you know very little about.
>>>
>>> Taking you seriously would be a whole other question, and in most cases a step too far........
>>
>> You are not a nice person.  Again with the vague critical remarks.  Never anything specific that we could discuss.  Hit and run Andy.  That's your MO.
>
> Well, he is certainly not being nice to you, but I would still say that your
> generalization (not a nice person) is not warranted.  No angels here.
>
> As for this thread, see
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F

A person who is not nice to me is not a nice person. Period.

On Tuesday, 25 July 2023 at 20:02:44 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
.....
> You are not a nice person. Again with the vague critical remarks. Never anything specific that we could discuss. Hit and run Andy. That's your MO.

As a few other members here have remarked, you always have to have the last word. It's part of your nature.

Since I'm utterly bored with talking to you, please go ahead and have the last word once again.

You know you're going to, so knock yourself out and go ahead..........

On 7/25/2023 5:48 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
> On Tuesday, 25 July 2023 at 20:02:44 UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
> ....
>> You are not a nice person. Again with the vague critical remarks. Never anything specific that we could discuss. Hit and run Andy. That's your MO.
>
> As a few other members here have remarked, you always have to have the last word. It's part of your nature.
>

And if I were to have failed to reply, you would have had the last word. It seems to me that anyone complaining about someone wanting the last word, also must value it.

> Since I'm utterly bored with talking to you, please go ahead and have the last word once again.
>
> You know you're going to, so knock yourself out and go ahead..........

You're daring me to be silent. I am not a child, nor a subject of your quackery.