I have recently realized once more how utterly stunning Schumann’s three string quartets op. 41 are. People used to say Schumann was a piano composer (they also used to say he was crazy), however these quartets have been conceived a hundred percent from the fiddle. Well, the middle one a little less. Let me add that these quartets make one envy the violist for the wonderful parts Schumann wrote for the third desk.

These quartets are top Schumann, and I rate them higher than the Brahms op 51 quartets in terms of originality, invention and spiritual depth. Also, it gives one pause to think in how little time Schumann composed these three works. He could have had a Haydnesque catalogue of string quartets if he had just continued.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf565yAZJDg&t=758s

The Castalian qt with the wonderful Sini Simonen on first v.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEXtm-ReWiQ&t=452s

the 2nd quartet is not widely available on YT, here is a quite lovely ad hoc quartet that only gets bogged down in the fourth movement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4UhZuw7gQ&t=820s

the most frequently performed quartet by the Ebene with their former violist.

Herman schrieb am Samstag, 22. Juli 2023 um 09:34:33 UTC+2:
> I have recently realized once more how utterly stunning Schumann’s three string quartets op. 41 are.

I think it's time for you to realize that if Schumann were alive, he would shove your violin up your unmusical ass.

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 8:34:33 AM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> I have recently realized once more how utterly stunning Schumann’s three string quartets op. 41 are. People used to say Schumann was a piano composer (they also used to say he was crazy), however these quartets have been conceived a hundred percent from the fiddle. Well, the middle one a little less. Let me add that these quartets make one envy the violist for the wonderful parts Schumann wrote for the third desk.
>
> These quartets are top Schumann, and I rate them higher than the Brahms op 51 quartets in terms of originality, invention and spiritual depth. Also, it gives one pause to think in how little time Schumann composed these three works. He could have had a Haydnesque catalogue of string quartets if he had just continued.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf565yAZJDg&t=758s
>
> The Castalian qt with the wonderful Sini Simonen on first v.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEXtm-ReWiQ&t=452s
>
> the 2nd quartet is not widely available on YT, here is a quite lovely ad hoc quartet that only gets bogged down in the fourth movement.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4UhZuw7gQ&t=820s
>
> the most frequently performed quartet by the Ebene with their former violist.

This is from the booklet to the (excellent IMO) recording by The Terpsycordes Quartet

It is often the case with regard to early music, much less so with regard to the classic and romantic repertoire: the heirs to Joseph Joachim and Fritz Kreisler do not usually undertake a careful examination of the original score as part of their musical preparation. But in the face of innovative technologies the spirit can evolve quickly, and the members of the Terpsycordes Quartet provide living proof. For their first recording featuring Schumann's complete string quartets it was important for them to go to the sources in order to find answers to their questions about the interpretation of these works.

The Score

First violinist Girolamo Bottiglieri was not convinced by the readings offered by commercial editions of Schumann's quartets available and set out to find the original manuscripts. "In contrast to Urtext editions, the score edited by Peters that we employed did not always provide a clear idea of the original phrasing", he explained. "It was limited to bowing indications that sometimes cut the breath of a phrase." It was in these phrases that the four musicians sensed the shadow of the piano and its style. "You could say that it was actually written for two hands", interjected the violist Caroline Haas, who also asserted that she, like her colleagues, also had difficulties recreating this "piano" style. "It is a less common manner of treating the quartet, with frequent syncopations and very irregular sequences."

The Music

After a great deal of research the quartet had to accept the evidence: because of multiple layers of corrections, not only in the composer's hand but also from the first performers, it is almost impossible to ascertain definitively what the original was. These documents, however, do provide a good idea of the evolution of the piece over the course of the rehearsals and performances up to the first edition. On the other hand, the musicians were confronted with a fundamental question with regard to their interpretation: Schumann himself did not make any suggestions with regard to bowing, preferring to mark complete phrases as he likewise does in his Lieder. "Beyond its pianistic form it is very vocal in style", confirmed Caroline Haas.

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 10:38:38 AM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:

> this "piano" style. "It is a less common manner of treating the quartet, with frequent syncopations and very irregular sequences."
>
Well, in all modesty I have to disagree with Haas, even though she's a much better player than me and studied longer on the scores.

Why would those syncopations and irregular phrases be 'pianistic'?
They are Schumannesque. Listen to the Cello Cto and you'll hear the excat same thing.
So you would have to call the Cello Cto 'pianistic', too.
I think it's sublime writing for a bowed instrument.
I'm not sure Schumann composed these pieces at the piano.
The only movement where I see piano-like phrasing is the finale of the 2nd string quartet.
That one is really a bitch to play on the violin.

On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 1:00:49 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 10:38:38 AM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
>
> > this "piano" style. "It is a less common manner of treating the quartet, with frequent syncopations and very irregular sequences."
> >
> Well, in all modesty I have to disagree with Haas, even though she's a much better player than me and studied longer on the scores.
>
> Why would those syncopations and irregular phrases be 'pianistic'?
> They are Schumannesque. Listen to the Cello Cto and you'll hear the excat same thing.
> So you would have to call the Cello Cto 'pianistic', too.
> I think it's sublime writing for a bowed instrument.
> I'm not sure Schumann composed these pieces at the piano.
> The only movement where I see piano-like phrasing is the finale of the 2nd string quartet.
> That one is really a bitch to play on the violin.

Yes I can well imagine the last movement of the second quartet is a bugger to play. I like the music very much.

I just listened to the Leipziger and the Terpsycordes play it -- quite a difference in phrasing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hpHrWP6L4&ab_channel=Obeythoven

On Monday, July 24, 2023 at 6:50:12 PM UTC+2, Mandryka wrote:
>
>
> I just listened to the Leipziger and the Terpsycordes play it -- quite a difference in phrasing
>
I just listened to the Terpsycordes' 2nd Schumann quartet and it's a delight. I see it was their maiden album so to speak, and clearly great care has been taken.
There is no way you can play the last movement of 41.2 like this in live conditions; it's incredibly clean and yet musical.
I will listen to this ensemble play the other schumann quartets soon.

On Saturday, July 22, 2023 at 12:34:33 AM UTC-7, Herman wrote:
> I have recently realized once more how utterly stunning Schumann’s three string quartets op. 41 are. People used to say Schumann was a piano composer (they also used to say he was crazy), however these quartets have been conceived a hundred percent from the fiddle. Well, the middle one a little less. Let me add that these quartets make one envy the violist for the wonderful parts Schumann wrote for the third desk.
>
> These quartets are top Schumann, and I rate them higher than the Brahms op 51 quartets in terms of originality, invention and spiritual depth. Also, it gives one pause to think in how little time Schumann composed these three works. He could have had a Haydnesque catalogue of string quartets if he had just continued.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf565yAZJDg&t=758s
>
> The Castalian qt with the wonderful Sini Simonen on first v.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEXtm-ReWiQ&t=452s
>
> the 2nd quartet is not widely available on YT, here is a quite lovely ad hoc quartet that only gets bogged down in the fourth movement.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO4UhZuw7gQ&t=820s
>
> the most frequently performed quartet by the Ebene with their former violist.

Well, I have on the claim of the reviewer that this is the very best version...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OhtODbKajw&list=PL54ax73VrIAMchrlhBh-DaSXYGkdotbtH&ab_channel=YsayeQuartet

As always, YMMV...

On Tuesday, July 25, 2023 at 3:24:33 AM UTC+2, Paul Alsing wrote:
>

> Well, I have on the claim of the reviewer that this is the very best version...

> As always, YMMV...

The Quatuor Ysaye recorded the Schumann string quartets commercially in 2003. I have that one somewhere. This live performance, ten years later, is of course in many ways excellent, but the constant high intensity vibrato is driving me crazy. So YMMV indeed.
I cannot help but think this performance was only a year and half before the QYsaye disbanded, excessive vibrato is often a sign of waning powers.