What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?

Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
because there are no futuristic or technological elements.

Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.

But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
stuff that can't exist in the real world.

Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.

That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
right????

·
12h
Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.

On 9/5/2021 2:57 PM, David Johnston wrote:

> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>
> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
> because there are no futuristic or technological elements.
>

That's a good question.

mag·ic
noun

'the power of apparently influencing the course of events
by using mysterious or supernatural forces.'
"suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open"

fan·ta·sy

noun

"the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things
that are impossible or improbable.
"his research had moved into the realm of fantasy"

If I were to assert that just using the tips of our fingers
it's possible to wield the power of a God, changing
the world in fundamental ways, and show that it's
scientifically possible, would that qualify
as fantasy without magic?

The science of becoming a 'super-hero' or even a God?
Would that qualify?

Emergence Taxonomy

The process of emergence deals with the fundamental question:
“how does an entity come into existence?”

In a process of emergence we observe something (for instance
the appearance of order or organization) and ask how this
is possible, since we assume causality: every effect
should have a cause. The surprising aspect in a process
of emergence is the observation of an effect without
an apparent cause.

Although the process of emergence might look mysterious, there
is nothing mystical, magical or unscientific about it.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/nlin/papers/0506/0506028.pdf

5 Viral Videos Which Actually Changed the World

"Never before has the Internet, and social media in particular,
become a more powerful tool in the hands of everyday people
and journalists/social commenters are struggling to keep up
with this rapidly changing, virgin landscape. The above
five video movements are just the start of this online
revolution; it remains to be seen the new ways in which
viral videos will change pop culture and the collective
public consciousness in years to come."
https://www.nyfa.edu/student-resources/5-viral-videos-actually-changed-world/

Is this definition talking about COVID or viral social
media effects, both of which have changed the world in
fundamental ways?

npj quantum materials
Defining emergence in physics

"The term emergent is used to evoke collective behaviour
of a large number of microscopic constituents that is
qualitatively different than the behaviours of the
individual constituents.

https://www.nature.com/articles/npjquantmats201624

A Universal Physics-Based Model Describing COVID-19 Dynamics in Europe

The presented work is based on the fundamental notion of
universality (universality classes), which is a basic concept
in the physics of critical phenomena [25]. According to
this, systems sharing no common structures and features
at all may demonstrate the same dynamic behavior; in the
case of critical phenomena, this is expressed through
the existence of exponents in scaling laws.
https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/17/18/6525/htm

Who started COVID, the question of our day?
Who started a social movement that 'went viral'?

Or more specifically ask how the death of say
George Floyd or Christ rocked the entire world
for years and even millennia while so many other
deaths went almost unnoticed?

Was it magic? Were they fantastic events?

> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
> but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
> trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.
>
> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
> drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
> stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>
> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>
> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
> right????
>
>
> ·
> 12h
> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
> not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
> Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
> doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
> travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On Sunday, 5 September 2021 at 19:57:15 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>
> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
> because there are no futuristic or technological elements.
>
> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
> but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
> trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.
>
> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
> drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
> stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>
> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>
> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
> right????
>
>
> ·
> 12h
> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
> not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
> Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
> doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
> travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.

I got into a similar question here and at Quora.com, in June.

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/IOe9BDYcUk4/m/wXbbhCg5BAAJ

https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book

(!)

I favour allowing "fantasy world" to include a completely
invented setting but with human beings and apparently
normal physics. But several other options came up.

Now there are scientific problems with dragons, but we
do have flying dinosaurs... and a number of non-flying
dinosaurs of course, like the rhea. Dead people turning
into trees takes a lot of intervention (mainly a spade, a
garden centre, space, time, and, not to be overlooked,
paperwork), and as for living inside a hollow planet...
I hope you don't mean you look down and see the sun
instead of up, because that is goofy. Caves, we'll allow.

As an aside, you can have a fairy tale without people doing
magic as such. Just that there's a dragon or a giant or a
talking cat or a critter that turns you to stone, and a plucky
hero (male, female, gender neutral) to deal with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_Center_of_the_Earth
includes "a genuine underground world (cavern) that's lit
by electrically charged gas near its ceiling" - I'd forgotten.
The book is from 1864 and electric arc lighting was not
yet practical, and neon remained to be discovered.
I suppose that natural electrical illumination was known.
Intermittently; also, noisily. ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Earth%27s_Core_(novel)
....no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld
.... you know what, still no. :-)

(Similar problems!)

Of course, fantasy can be science fiction as well.
Do you think that science fiction is /not/ fantasy?
And anyway, it cheats. A lot.

On Sun, 5 Sep 2021 15:14:51 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@excite.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, 5 September 2021 at 19:57:15 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>
>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
>> because there are no futuristic or technological elements.
>>
>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
>> but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
>> trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.
>>
>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
>> drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
>> stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>>
>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>
>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
>> right????
>>
>>
>> ·
>> 12h
>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
>> not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
>> Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
>> doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
>> travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.
>
>I got into a similar question here and at Quora.com, in June.
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/IOe9BDYcUk4/m/wXbbhCg5BAAJ
>
>https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book
>
>(!)
>
>I favour allowing "fantasy world" to include a completely
>invented setting but with human beings and apparently
>normal physics. But several other options came up.
>
>Now there are scientific problems with dragons, but we
>do have flying dinosaurs... and a number of non-flying
>dinosaurs of course, like the rhea. Dead people turning
>into trees takes a lot of intervention (mainly a spade, a
>garden centre, space, time, and, not to be overlooked,
>paperwork), and as for living inside a hollow planet...
>I hope you don't mean you look down and see the sun
>instead of up, because that is goofy. Caves, we'll allow.
>
>As an aside, you can have a fairy tale without people doing
>magic as such. Just that there's a dragon or a giant or a
>talking cat or a critter that turns you to stone, and a plucky
>hero (male, female, gender neutral) to deal with it.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_Center_of_the_Earth
>includes "a genuine underground world (cavern) that's lit
>by electrically charged gas near its ceiling" - I'd forgotten.
>The book is from 1864 and electric arc lighting was not
>yet practical, and neon remained to be discovered.
>I suppose that natural electrical illumination was known.
>Intermittently; also, noisily. ;-)
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Earth%27s_Core_(novel)
>...no.

Maybe not but Burroughs sold quite a lot of stories on that premise,
even a Tarzan crossover.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringworld
>... you know what, still no. :-)
>
>(Similar problems!)

The main problem with Ringworld was keeping it centered--Niven
retconned that with a stationkeeping system.

>Of course, fantasy can be science fiction as well.
>Do you think that science fiction is /not/ fantasy?
>And anyway, it cheats. A lot.

In article <sh33u7$nrq$1@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>

Secondary world? I assume you want creatures that don't exist in our
world, but are not impossible (e.g., big bats that act like birds of
prey)

> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
> because there are no futuristic or technological elements.
>
> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
> but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
> trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.
>
> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
> drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
> stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>
> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>
> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
> right????
>
>
> ·
> 12h
> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
> not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
> Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
> doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
> travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>
> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
> because there are no futuristic or technological elements.
>
> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
> but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
> trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.
>
> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
> drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
> stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>
> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>
> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
> right????
>
>
> ·
> 12h
> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
> not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
> Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
> doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
> travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.

I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last month, American
Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton. Both
were set in the same world I live in but included ridiculous illogical
elements of fantasy less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.

In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air with his
finger predicting the future.
In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
Genres seem to be disappearing.

Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:sh46rm$22c$1@dont-email.me:

> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>
>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or technological
>> elements.
>>
>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's
>> a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die
>> they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they
>> live inside it.
>>
>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations
>> and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>>
>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>
>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens??
>> Is that right????
>>
>>
>> ·
>> 12h
>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for isekai
>> stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem, or science
>> fiction that doesn't include space travel, or mystery stories
>> that don't have a murder.
>
> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last month,
> American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows Universe by
> Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I live in but
> included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy less plausible
> than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>
> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air with
> his finger predicting the future.
> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
> Genres seem to be disappearing.
>
I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so these
days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in the 30s.
They've stood the test of time. The TV series was remarkably true
to the story lines, and remarkably not so to the characters, with
Perry being an action hero who punches people out, carries a gun at
times, and literally forces his way into people's homes under
circumstances that today would result in prison sentences. They're
*very* 30s.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <XnsAD9DAE7E20Dtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.245>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

> Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:sh46rm$22c$1@dont-email.me:
>
> > On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
> >> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
> >>
> >> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
> >> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or technological
> >> elements.
> >>
<SNIP>
> >
> > I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last month,
> > American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows Universe by
> > Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I live in but
> > included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy less plausible
> > than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
<snip>
> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so these
> days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in the 30s.
> They've stood the test of time. The TV series was remarkably true
> to the story lines, and remarkably not so to the characters, with
> Perry being an action hero who punches people out, carries a gun at
> times, and literally forces his way into people's homes under
> circumstances that today would result in prison sentences. They're
> *very* 30s.)

Perry Mason from the 1930s? That was his shyster era; if he had been
caught, he would have been disbarred. IIRC, he managed to get one killer
off scotch free and, in another case, the killer wasn't even a suspect
(thanks to incompetent police work in both cases). That period ended
with, IIRC, _The Case of the Silent Partner_ when Tragg became the new
man in the Homicide squad. BTW, I say killer rather than murderer
because in both cases the deceased was a recent murderer and would have
added to his total if it wasn't for a women with a gun in her purse.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Sunday, 5 September 2021 at 19:57:15 UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
> > What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
> >
> > Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't feeeel right
> > because there are no futuristic or technological elements.
> >
> > Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's a dragon,
> > but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die they turn into
> > trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they live inside it.
> >
> > But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting spells, or
> > drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations and imaginative
> > stuff that can't exist in the real world.

> > That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens?? Is that
> > right????

Make-believe nations has a genre name: Ruritanian fantasy. The run the gamut from Atlantis to Utopia to Laputa to the Duchy of Grand Fenwick to "The Lady or the Tiger?" to _The Prisoner of Zenda_ (whence Ruritania) to "The Man Who Corrupted Hadleyburg," but it's mostly agreed they don't have to be thought of as aliens on another planet.

Does cryptozoology have a genre name? Well, maybe cryptozoology, if one hasn't been suggested before. This would be a strange one, as it could also include history. How far is Valley of the Dinosaurs from the coelacanth? The Great White Whale from a great white shark that takes revenge personally from a white rhinoceros from a white tiger? I don't know that anyone has done a story about, say, a triple-crested barn swallow, but "Ugly Chickens" is about the search for a non-extinct dodo. Travelers' tales were supposed to be believed about birds that live so far out at sea that they haven't grown feet, or men without heads who have their faces on their chests, or who have one central leg ending in a large foot, or who don't have shadows. The believability of the imaginary animals may depend on the intent of the author, their ability, and maybe on the reader (on reading about a scorpion the size of a horse, I, who know the square-cube law, may tell myself it is a creature the size of a horse that roughly resembles a scorpion,) but there are animals definitely over whatever border there is, into fantasy; the dragon whose blood allows the drinker to understand the language of animals, for one.

> I got into a similar question here and at Quora.com, in June.
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/IOe9BDYcUk4/m/wXbbhCg5BAAJ
>
> https://www.quora.com/If-a-book-takes-place-in-a-completely-invented-world-but-this-world-doesnt-have-magic-or-anything-mythical-only-with-humans-and-completely-following-our-laws-of-physics-would-this-book-count-as-a-fantasy-book
>

I think I took part in that thread. I should check whether I said the same thing I said here, or the opposite.

> I favour allowing "fantasy world" to include a completely
> invented setting but with human beings and apparently
> normal physics. But several other options came up.

Thoughts of me and Kathy Ireland fall under certain definitions of "fantasy.."
;>

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_Center_of_the_Earth
> includes "a genuine underground world (cavern) that's lit
> by electrically charged gas near its ceiling" - I'd forgotten.

I'd forgotten, too. I suppose the translation I read as a kid included enough of the explanation to satisfy me.
(I mention a Rex Stout 1920s novel _Under the Andes_ that has our heroes' eyes adjust to the darkness, yes, described as total darkness, and even darker than that!

> The book is from 1864 and electric arc lighting was not
> yet practical, and neon remained to be discovered.
> I suppose that natural electrical illumination was known.
> Intermittently; also, noisily. ;-)

Luckily radioluminescence had not been discovered, I would hate to think of that applied!

> As an aside, you can have a fairy tale without people doing
> magic as such. Just that there's a dragon or a giant or a
> talking cat or a critter that turns you to stone, and a plucky
> hero (male, female, gender neutral) to deal with it.

I was thinking the Alice books had fantastical creatures and occurrances, and rules of the land ("jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, never jam today," "beware the Jub-Jub bird and shun the frumious bandersnatch") but no one actually doing "magic" (that I recall). I was going to ask what they were -besides one being an underground adventure- but I remembered they were dreams.
Which reminds me of a catalog of fantastic films that included dreams -- the only way to include "The Wizard of Oz," but also the dream sequence in Alfred Hitchcock's otherwise mundane "Spellbound." It also included "old dark house" films of the gamut from actual ghosts to fake hauntings to implied rational explanations for all such phenomena, to the double reverse -with fakery involved but the supernatural shown to exist. The rationale for the wide net was that even fake hauntings required allowing the possibility of the supernatural, at least to start watching the movie.
--
-Jack

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
news:robertaw-D550A2.10140906092021@news.individual.net:

> In article <XnsAD9DAE7E20Dtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.245>,
> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in
>> news:sh46rm$22c$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>> > On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>> >> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>> >>
>> >> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>> >> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>> >> technological elements.
>> >>
> <SNIP>
>> >
>> > I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>> > month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>> > Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>> > live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy
>> > less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
> <snip>
>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>
> Perry Mason from the 1930s?

The first one, The Case of the Velvet Claws, was published in 1933.
Currently reading the 2nd one.

> That was his shyster era; if he had
> been caught, he would have been disbarred.

But he's very good at not getting caught, and getting caught is
rather harder than in later eras.

For instance, when he needs to attach a name and address to an
unlisted phone number, he just walks into the squad room of the
local police station and offers his detective buddy a bribe (though
he doesn't use that word) for $25 (a lot of money in 1933) to get
it for him on the sly. Without a thought about the other detectives
present.

> IIRC, he managed to
> get one killer off scotch free and, in another case, the killer
> wasn't even a suspect (thanks to incompetent police work in both
> cases).

He describes himself as a problem solver, and takes his obligation
to protect his client's interests more seriously than anything
else.

It's very 30s, and very noir, and very pot boiler. A clear product
of its day.

Interestingly, in the first book, he says, point blank, that very
few of his cases go to trial, and he likes it that way. But in the
TV show, every episode has a court action of some kind; not always
a trial as such, but hearings as a prelude to a trial.

> That period ended with, IIRC, _The Case of the Silent
> Partner_ when Tragg became the new man in the Homicide squad.

That appears to be #17, published in 1940. That was, at worse, the
tail end of the Depression, and the world was changing. Be
interesting to view it in that light.

> BTW, I say killer rather than murderer because in both cases the
> deceased was a recent murderer and would have added to his total
> if it wasn't for a women with a gun in her purse.
>
Sounds to me like getting off scott free was, in fact, justice,
then. But I reserve judgement until I read them (and I probably
will).

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 1:57:15 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?

Non-magical unrealism?
..........................................
> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre because it's
> not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined just by what it lacks.
> Nobody needs a special label for isekai stories where the protagonist
> doesn't have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include space
> travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.

"I'll never forget the day I read a book.
It was contagious, seventy pages.
There were pictures here and there,
So it wasn't hard to bear,
The day I read a book."

"It's a shame I don't recall the name of the book.
It wasn't a history. I know because it had no plot.
It wasn't a mystery, because nobody there got shot.
The day I read a book I can't remember when,
But one o' these days, I'm gonna do it again."
Jimmy Durante

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
> > On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
> >> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
> >>
> >> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
> >> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or technological
> >> elements.
> >>
> >> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's
> >> a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die
> >> they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they
> >> live inside it.
> >>
> >> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
> >> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations
> >> and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real world.
> >>
> >> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
> >>
> >> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens??
> >> Is that right????
> >>
> >>
> >> ·
> >> 12h
> >> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
> >> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
> >> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for isekai
> >> stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem, or science
> >> fiction that doesn't include space travel, or mystery stories
> >> that don't have a murder.
> >
> > I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last month,
> > American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows Universe by
> > Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I live in but
> > included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy less plausible
> > than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
> >
> > In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air with
> > his finger predicting the future.
> > In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
> > Genres seem to be disappearing.
> >
> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so these
> days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in the 30s.
> They've stood the test of time. The TV series was remarkably true
> to the story lines, and remarkably not so to the characters, with
> Perry being an action hero who punches people out, carries a gun at
> times, and literally forces his way into people's homes under
> circumstances that today would result in prison sentences. They're
> *very* 30s.)

Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the farther away it
gets in time, the more the early 20th century attracts me as a reader.

William Hyde

On 06/09/2021 16.23, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:

> "I'll never forget the day I read a book.
> It was contagious, seventy pages.
> There were pictures here and there,
> So it wasn't hard to bear,
> The day I read a book."
>
> "It's a shame I don't recall the name of the book.
> It wasn't a history. I know because it had no plot.
> It wasn't a mystery, because nobody there got shot.
> The day I read a book I can't remember when,
> But one o' these days, I'm gonna do it again."
> Jimmy Durante

"What is the use of a book, without pictures or conversations?"
- Alice

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 10:1-2

On 06/09/2021 16.49, William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:

>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so these
>> days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in the 30s.
>> They've stood the test of time. The TV series was remarkably true
>> to the story lines, and remarkably not so to the characters, with
>> Perry being an action hero who punches people out, carries a gun at
>> times, and literally forces his way into people's homes under
>> circumstances that today would result in prison sentences. They're
>> *very* 30s.)
>
> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the farther away it
> gets in time, the more the early 20th century attracts me as a reader.

When I watch the 1939 film version of _The Wizard of Oz_, the
parts that now (as opposed to fifty-sixty years ago) that I find
the most fantastical are the bits set in Kansas. (Which I think
was 1939 Kansas, rather than the 1900 Kansas.)

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 10:1-2

On 2021-09-06 3:49 p.m., William Hyde wrote:
> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>>> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>>
>>>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>>>> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or technological
>>>> elements.
>>>>
>>>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's
>>>> a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die
>>>> they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they
>>>> live inside it.
>>>>
>>>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>>>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations
>>>> and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>>>>
>>>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>>>
>>>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens??
>>>> Is that right????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ·
>>>> 12h
>>>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>>>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>>>> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for isekai
>>>> stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem, or science
>>>> fiction that doesn't include space travel, or mystery stories
>>>> that don't have a murder.
>>>
>>> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last month,
>>> American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows Universe by
>>> Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I live in but
>>> included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy less plausible
>>> than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>>
>>> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air with
>>> his finger predicting the future.
>>> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
>>> Genres seem to be disappearing.
>>>
>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so these
>> days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in the 30s.
>> They've stood the test of time. The TV series was remarkably true
>> to the story lines, and remarkably not so to the characters, with
>> Perry being an action hero who punches people out, carries a gun at
>> times, and literally forces his way into people's homes under
>> circumstances that today would result in prison sentences. They're
>> *very* 30s.)
>
> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the farther away it
> gets in time, the more the early 20th century attracts me as a reader.
>

Oh Perry Mason is one period series (of novels) that really stands the
test of time where other books of that vintage have gone stale.

In article <sh6i6v$8ik$1@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2021-09-06 3:49 p.m., William Hyde wrote:
>> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
>>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>>>
>>>>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>>>>> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or technological
>>>>> elements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe there's
>>>>> a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when people die
>>>>> they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is hollow and they
>>>>> live inside it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>>>>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe nations
>>>>> and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races aliens??
>>>>> Is that right????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ·
>>>>> 12h
>>>>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>>>>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>>>>> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for isekai
>>>>> stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem, or science
>>>>> fiction that doesn't include space travel, or mystery stories
>>>>> that don't have a murder.
>>>>
>>>> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last month,
>>>> American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows Universe by
>>>> Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I live in but
>>>> included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy less plausible
>>>> than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>>>
>>>> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air with
>>>> his finger predicting the future.
>>>> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
>>>> Genres seem to be disappearing.
>>>>
>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so these
>>> days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in the 30s.
>>> They've stood the test of time. The TV series was remarkably true
>>> to the story lines, and remarkably not so to the characters, with
>>> Perry being an action hero who punches people out, carries a gun at
>>> times, and literally forces his way into people's homes under
>>> circumstances that today would result in prison sentences. They're
>>> *very* 30s.)
>>
>> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the farther away it
>> gets in time, the more the early 20th century attracts me as a reader.
>>
>
>Oh Perry Mason is one period series (of novels) that really stands the
>test of time where other books of that vintage have gone stale.

I have not read them recently, but I found The Saint entries from the 30s
held up well as did several of the "fair play" Ellery Queens from the same
timeframe. I've got Bulldog Drummond on the list to try sometime.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote in
news:a19d323b-bed0-4531-931b-41251d5ea352n@googlegroups.com:

> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda
> Jibini wrote:
>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>> > On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>> >> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>> >>
>> >> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>> >> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>> >> technological elements.
>> >>
>> >> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe
>> >> there's a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when
>> >> people die they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is
>> >> hollow and they live inside it.
>> >>
>> >> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>> >> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe
>> >> nations and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real
>> >> world.
>> >>
>> >> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>> >>
>> >> That person also said this makes those fantasy races
>> >> aliens?? Is that right????
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ·
>> >> 12h
>> >> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>> >> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>> >> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for
>> >> isekai stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem,
>> >> or science fiction that doesn't include space travel, or
>> >> mystery stories that don't have a murder.
>> >
>> > I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>> > month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>> > Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>> > live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy
>> > less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>> >
>> > In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air
>> > with his finger predicting the future.
>> > In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
>> > Genres seem to be disappearing.
>> >
>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>
> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the
> farther away it gets in time, the more the early 20th century
> attracts me as a reader.
>
Gardner was a master of the craft. I'm not seeing that much art,
mind you, but that's sort of appropriate for a pot boiler detective
story, and for all I know, it was innnovative for the day.

It's certainly easy to see why they were among the best selling
novels published for many years.

(And they're not nearly as sexist - by today's standards - as Edgar
Rice Burroughs.)

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:sh6i6v$8ik$1@dont-email.me:

> On 2021-09-06 3:49 p.m., William Hyde wrote:
>> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>> Jibini wrote:
>>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>>>
>>>>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>>>>> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>>>>> technological elements.
>>>>>
>>>>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe
>>>>> there's a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when
>>>>> people die they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is
>>>>> hollow and they live inside it.
>>>>>
>>>>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>>>>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe
>>>>> nations and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real
>>>>> world.
>>>>>
>>>>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>>>>
>>>>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races
>>>>> aliens?? Is that right????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ·
>>>>> 12h
>>>>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>>>>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>>>>> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for
>>>>> isekai stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem,
>>>>> or science fiction that doesn't include space travel, or
>>>>> mystery stories that don't have a murder.
>>>>
>>>> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>>>> month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>>>> Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>>>> live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy
>>>> less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>>>
>>>> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air
>>>> with his finger predicting the future.
>>>> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
>>>> Genres seem to be disappearing.
>>>>
>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>
>> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the
>> farther away it gets in time, the more the early 20th century
>> attracts me as a reader.
>>
>
> Oh Perry Mason is one period series (of novels) that really
> stands the test of time where other books of that vintage have
> gone stale.
>
That's because the storied they tell are not dependent on the time
in which they're set. Murder mysteries are universal stories, if
they're done right.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

"Michael F. Stemper" <michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote in
news:sh633j$rls$1@dont-email.me:

> On 06/09/2021 16.49, William Hyde wrote:
>> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>> Jibini wrote:
>
>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>
>> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the
>> farther away it gets in time, the more the early 20th century
>> attracts me as a reader.
>
> When I watch the 1939 film version of _The Wizard of Oz_, the
> parts that now (as opposed to fifty-sixty years ago) that I find
> the most fantastical are the bits set in Kansas. (Which I think
> was 1939 Kansas, rather than the 1900 Kansas.)
>
Liberties have been taken on every film version of it. 1939 was what,
the third for fourth one?

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

In article <XnsAD9DEEE7081BBtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
>news:sh6i6v$8ik$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 2021-09-06 3:49 p.m., William Hyde wrote:
>>> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>>> Jibini wrote:
>>>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>>>>>> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>>>>>> technological elements.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe
>>>>>> there's a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when
>>>>>> people die they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is
>>>>>> hollow and they live inside it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>>>>>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe
>>>>>> nations and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real
>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races
>>>>>> aliens?? Is that right????
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ·
>>>>>> 12h
>>>>>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>>>>>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>>>>>> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for
>>>>>> isekai stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem,
>>>>>> or science fiction that doesn't include space travel, or
>>>>>> mystery stories that don't have a murder.
>>>>>
>>>>> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>>>>> month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>>>>> Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>>>>> live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy
>>>>> less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air
>>>>> with his finger predicting the future.
>>>>> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
>>>>> Genres seem to be disappearing.
>>>>>
>>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>>
>>> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the
>>> farther away it gets in time, the more the early 20th century
>>> attracts me as a reader.
>>>
>>
>> Oh Perry Mason is one period series (of novels) that really
>> stands the test of time where other books of that vintage have
>> gone stale.
>>
>That's because the storied they tell are not dependent on the time
>in which they're set. Murder mysteries are universal stories, if
>they're done right.
>
Consider _The War of the Worlds_. When Wells wrote the book, it
was about "how would you feel if some alien race invaded you and
did as it pleased with you, as Britain has been doing with the
rest of the world?"

When Orson Welles did it on radio in 1938, he was drawing on what
Hitler was doing in Europe, and because practically everyone was
listening to Charlie McCarthy at the beginning and only later
turned to another station, an indeterminate number thought it was
either Nazis or Martians.

When George Pal filmed it in 1953, the Cold War was on and people
were afraid of invading Russians. The subsequent TV series in
2019 picked up on the movie, but now the Martians (who had been
hibernating in hazmat drums) were infesting humans' bodies,
because now the thing people were afraid of was AIDS.

I didn't see the Spielberg movie, but the publicity made it clear
that it was feeding off 9/11.

There will probably be more versions after a while, reflecting
whatever people are fearing at the time.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:qz2F5r.206F@kithrup.com:

> In article <XnsAD9DEEE7081BBtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>news:sh6i6v$8ik$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-06 3:49 p.m., William Hyde wrote:
>>>> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>>>> Jibini wrote:
>>>>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that
>>>>>>> doesn't feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>>>>>>> technological elements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe
>>>>>>> there's a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe
>>>>>>> when people die they turn into trees. Maybe their planet
>>>>>>> is hollow and they live inside it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>>>>>>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe
>>>>>>> nations and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real
>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races
>>>>>>> aliens?? Is that right????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ·
>>>>>>> 12h
>>>>>>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>>>>>>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is
>>>>>>> defined just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special
>>>>>>> label for isekai stories where the protagonist doesn't
>>>>>>> have a harem, or science fiction that doesn't include
>>>>>>> space travel, or mystery stories that don't have a murder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>>>>>> month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>>>>>> Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>>>>>> live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of
>>>>>> fantasy less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air
>>>>>> with his finger predicting the future.
>>>>>> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply
>>>>>> ridiculous. Genres seem to be disappearing.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the
>>>> farther away it gets in time, the more the early 20th century
>>>> attracts me as a reader.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh Perry Mason is one period series (of novels) that really
>>> stands the test of time where other books of that vintage have
>>> gone stale.
>>>
>>That's because the storied they tell are not dependent on the
>>time in which they're set. Murder mysteries are universal
>>stories, if they're done right.
>>
> Consider _The War of the Worlds_. When Wells wrote the book, it
> was about "how would you feel if some alien race invaded you and
> did as it pleased with you, as Britain has been doing with the
> rest of the world?"
>
> When Orson Welles did it on radio in 1938, he was drawing on
> what Hitler was doing in Europe, and because practically
> everyone was listening to Charlie McCarthy at the beginning and
> only later turned to another station, an indeterminate number
> thought it was either Nazis or Martians.
>
> When George Pal filmed it in 1953, the Cold War was on and
> people were afraid of invading Russians. The subsequent TV
> series in 2019 picked up on the movie, but now the Martians (who
> had been hibernating in hazmat drums) were infesting humans'
> bodies, because now the thing people were afraid of was AIDS.
>
> I didn't see the Spielberg movie, but the publicity made it
> clear that it was feeding off 9/11.
>
> There will probably be more versions after a while, reflecting
> whatever people are fearing at the time.
>
Any creative type that wants to succeed as an artist needs to make
their work topical, to be certain. Science fiction, in particular,
has always been more about the day in which it is written than the
future, but i9t's really just more overt than other genres usually
are.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 17:42:57 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
<taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:

>Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
>news:robertaw-D550A2.10140906092021@news.individual.net:
>
>> In article <XnsAD9DAE7E20Dtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.245>,
>> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1@dont-email.me:
>>>
>>> > On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>> >> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>> >>
>>> >> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>>> >> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>>> >> technological elements.
>>> >>
>> <SNIP>
>>> >
>>> > I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>>> > month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>>> > Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>>> > live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy
>>> > less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>> <snip>
>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>
>> Perry Mason from the 1930s?
>
>The first one, The Case of the Velvet Claws, was published in 1933.
>Currently reading the 2nd one.
>
>> That was his shyster era; if he had
>> been caught, he would have been disbarred.
>
>But he's very good at not getting caught, and getting caught is
>rather harder than in later eras.
>
>For instance, when he needs to attach a name and address to an
>unlisted phone number, he just walks into the squad room of the
>local police station and offers his detective buddy a bribe (though
>he doesn't use that word) for $25 (a lot of money in 1933) to get
>it for him on the sly. Without a thought about the other detectives
>present.
>
>> IIRC, he managed to
>> get one killer off scotch free and, in another case, the killer
>> wasn't even a suspect (thanks to incompetent police work in both
>> cases).
>
>He describes himself as a problem solver, and takes his obligation
>to protect his client's interests more seriously than anything
>else.
>
>It's very 30s, and very noir, and very pot boiler. A clear product
>of its day.
>
>Interestingly, in the first book, he says, point blank, that very
>few of his cases go to trial, and he likes it that way. But in the
>TV show, every episode has a court action of some kind; not always
>a trial as such, but hearings as a prelude to a trial.

Back in the '80s, a new UHF station appeared. Since they were working
for peanuts (slowly building an audience so they could charge
advertisers enough to actually make money), they focused on older
shows. Once of which was the B&W /Perry Mason/. These were
fascinating, showing a much more active Perry than the later TV movies
did.

The court action most often seen was the Preliminary Hearing. This was
used, in lieu of a grand jury, to determine if the Prosecution had
enough actual evidence to make a trial worth while. The trial itself
would be where the Defense was allowed to present its evidence. Perry
almost always turned this into an actual bench trial by adroitly
questioning the Prosecution's witnesses. Actual trials were, as you
note, very rare.

The one I most remember is a country episode, where Perry finds
himself defending his client out in the boonies. He makes a motion;
the prosecutor immediately goes into his "us country bumpkins aren't
impressed by this city-slicker stuff", the Judge looks at him
pityingly and says:

When a man's right, he's right.

and rules for Perry.

>> That period ended with, IIRC, _The Case of the Silent
>> Partner_ when Tragg became the new man in the Homicide squad.
>
>That appears to be #17, published in 1940. That was, at worse, the
>tail end of the Depression, and the world was changing. Be
>interesting to view it in that light.
>
>> BTW, I say killer rather than murderer because in both cases the
>> deceased was a recent murderer and would have added to his total
>> if it wasn't for a women with a gun in her purse.
>>
>Sounds to me like getting off scott free was, in fact, justice,
>then. But I reserve judgement until I read them (and I probably
>will).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 13:08:15 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
wrote:

>In article <XnsAD9DEEE7081BBtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.232>,
>Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>news:sh6i6v$8ik$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>>> On 2021-09-06 3:49 p.m., William Hyde wrote:
>>>> On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 3:04:05 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>>>> Jibini wrote:
>>>>> Titus G <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1...@dont-email.me:
>>>>>> On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that doesn't
>>>>>>> feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>>>>>>> technological elements.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Like, they're just different cultures and races. Maybe
>>>>>>> there's a dragon, but it's just a flying lizard. Maybe when
>>>>>>> people die they turn into trees. Maybe their planet is
>>>>>>> hollow and they live inside it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But there's no magic. No one's brewing potions, chanting
>>>>>>> spells, or drawing summoning circles. Just make-believe
>>>>>>> nations and imaginative stuff that can't exist in the real
>>>>>>> world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Think Six of Crows minus Grisha stuff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That person also said this makes those fantasy races
>>>>>>> aliens?? Is that right????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ·
>>>>>>> 12h
>>>>>>> Here's the thing. You don't need a name for that subgenre
>>>>>>> because it's not a subgenre. No genre or subgenre is defined
>>>>>>> just by what it lacks. Nobody needs a special label for
>>>>>>> isekai stories where the protagonist doesn't have a harem,
>>>>>>> or science fiction that doesn't include space travel, or
>>>>>>> mystery stories that don't have a murder.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>>>>>> month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>>>>>> Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>>>>>> live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of fantasy
>>>>>> less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Boy Swallows Universe, a pre-teen mute writes in the air
>>>>>> with his finger predicting the future.
>>>>>> In American Dirt scenarios and events are simply ridiculous.
>>>>>> Genres seem to be disappearing.
>>>>>>
>>>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for that, I'd never have considered them. But the
>>>> farther away it gets in time, the more the early 20th century
>>>> attracts me as a reader.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh Perry Mason is one period series (of novels) that really
>>> stands the test of time where other books of that vintage have
>>> gone stale.
>>>
>>That's because the storied they tell are not dependent on the time
>>in which they're set. Murder mysteries are universal stories, if
>>they're done right.
>>
>Consider _The War of the Worlds_. When Wells wrote the book, it
>was about "how would you feel if some alien race invaded you and
>did as it pleased with you, as Britain has been doing with the
>rest of the world?"
>
>When Orson Welles did it on radio in 1938, he was drawing on what
>Hitler was doing in Europe, and because practically everyone was
>listening to Charlie McCarthy at the beginning and only later
>turned to another station, an indeterminate number thought it was
>either Nazis or Martians.
>
>When George Pal filmed it in 1953, the Cold War was on and people
>were afraid of invading Russians. The subsequent TV series in
>2019 picked up on the movie, but now the Martians (who had been
>hibernating in hazmat drums) were infesting humans' bodies,
>because now the thing people were afraid of was AIDS.
>
>I didn't see the Spielberg movie, but the publicity made it clear
>that it was feeding off 9/11.
>
>There will probably be more versions after a while, reflecting
>whatever people are fearing at the time.

And people are always fearing something because (a) it sells
newspapers and gathers clicks and (b) without people being afraid of
something the politicians would have to actually come up with
something constructive to do to justify their existence.

David Johnston <davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>

I'd just go with "fables" or "fabular fiction." That covers
most sins.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

Paul S Person <psperson1@ix.netcom.invalid> wrote in
news:0s1fjglhl6re954io42lhmiqp3q9hi3b43@4ax.com:

> On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 17:42:57 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
> <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote in
>>news:robertaw-D550A2.10140906092021@news.individual.net:
>>
>>> In article <XnsAD9DAE7E20Dtaustincagmailcom@85.12.62.245>,
>>> Ninapenda Jibini <taustinca@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in
>>>> news:sh46rm$22c$1@dont-email.me:
>>>>
>>>> > On 6/09/21 6:57 am, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> >> What's the subgenre of a fantasy with no magic system?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Somebody told me this is the sci-fi genre, but that
>>>> >> doesn't feeeel right because there are no futuristic or
>>>> >> technological elements.
>>>> >>
>>> <SNIP>
>>>> >
>>>> > I read two pathetic general fiction (NON SF) books last
>>>> > month, American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins and Boy Swallows
>>>> > Universe by Trent Dalton. Both were set in the same world I
>>>> > live in but included ridiculous illogical elements of
>>>> > fantasy less plausible than FTL travel, aliens and faeries.
>>> <snip>
>>>> I've always been pretty picky about what I read. I'm more so
>>>> these days. (Currently reading Perry Mason novels written in
>>>> the 30s. They've stood the test of time. The TV series was
>>>> remarkably true to the story lines, and remarkably not so to
>>>> the characters, with Perry being an action hero who punches
>>>> people out, carries a gun at times, and literally forces his
>>>> way into people's homes under circumstances that today would
>>>> result in prison sentences. They're *very* 30s.)
>>>
>>> Perry Mason from the 1930s?
>>
>>The first one, The Case of the Velvet Claws, was published in
>>1933. Currently reading the 2nd one.
>>
>>> That was his shyster era; if he had
>>> been caught, he would have been disbarred.
>>
>>But he's very good at not getting caught, and getting caught is
>>rather harder than in later eras.
>>
>>For instance, when he needs to attach a name and address to an
>>unlisted phone number, he just walks into the squad room of the
>>local police station and offers his detective buddy a bribe
>>(though he doesn't use that word) for $25 (a lot of money in
>>1933) to get it for him on the sly. Without a thought about the
>>other detectives present.
>>
>>> IIRC, he managed to
>>> get one killer off scotch free and, in another case, the
>>> killer wasn't even a suspect (thanks to incompetent police
>>> work in both cases).
>>
>>He describes himself as a problem solver, and takes his
>>obligation to protect his client's interests more seriously than
>>anything else.
>>
>>It's very 30s, and very noir, and very pot boiler. A clear
>>product of its day.
>>
>>Interestingly, in the first book, he says, point blank, that
>>very few of his cases go to trial, and he likes it that way. But
>>in the TV show, every episode has a court action of some kind;
>>not always a trial as such, but hearings as a prelude to a
>>trial.
>
> Back in the '80s, a new UHF station appeared. Since they were
> working for peanuts (slowly building an audience so they could
> charge advertisers enough to actually make money), they focused
> on older shows. Once of which was the B&W /Perry Mason/. These
> were fascinating, showing a much more active Perry than the
> later TV movies did.
>
> The court action most often seen was the Preliminary Hearing.
> This was used, in lieu of a grand jury, to determine if the
> Prosecution had enough actual evidence to make a trial worth
> while. The trial itself would be where the Defense was allowed
> to present its evidence. Perry almost always turned this into an
> actual bench trial by adroitly questioning the Prosecution's
> witnesses. Actual trials were, as you note, very rare.

While procedures may have changed since ~1960, I'm pretty sure that
was a liberty taken by Hollywood (one of many) because grand jury
hearings are nothing like a court hearing, and the defense
basically isn't allowed to participate (more or less). Ergo, Perry
couldn't do his song and dance there, ergo, it has to be a prelim
hearing of some type.

But in the books, at least so far, it doesn't even get to that
point. They're not courtroom dramas, they're detective stories.
>
> The one I most remember is a country episode, where Perry finds
> himself defending his client out in the boonies. He makes a
> motion; the prosecutor immediately goes into his "us country
> bumpkins aren't impressed by this city-slicker stuff", the Judge
> looks at him pityingly and says:
>
> When a man's right, he's right.
>
> and rules for Perry.

Which isn't all that different from the usual scenario with Berger
and the regular judge.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB