On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:57:35 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:45:35 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:06:40 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5,
> > > > > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
> > > > > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
> > > > > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > > > > According to this:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > > > > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> > > > I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
> > > >
> > > > it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...
> > > Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always been economically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?
> > >
> > > According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's:
> > > - ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to carry out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_life
> > interesting to consider what kinds of economic transformations were happening such that the court could become so impoverished at that time. i guess wrapped up with whatever transformations enabled the merchant classes to so far outpace the wealth of landed aristocrats soon after...
> >
> > anyway the idea of gagaku performance as static / a living fossil is totally mythological, even leaving aside the multiple 50 or 100 year gaps in performance after which the music was 'revived'/recreated/reimagined, there is also significant evidence that performance practice changed hugely with transitions from court-employed entertainers to amateur aristocratic circles to temple ritualists and back to court-employed ritualists. so, to your idea about changing performance venue, it makes sense, but it's hard to say anything stronger than 'maybe'.
> According to this:
>
> - Daiei 5, on the 1st day of the 1st month (1525): All ceremonies in the court were suspended because of the lack of funds to support them.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Kashiwabara#Events_of_Go-Kashiwabara's_life

According to this:

- After the end of the War, there was little enthusiasm for reviving the Imperial Court's ancient ceremonies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Tsuchimikado#Events_of_Go-Tsuchimikado's_life

On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:22:23 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:57:35 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:45:35 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:06:40 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5,
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
> > > > > > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
> > > > > > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > > > > > According to this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > > > > > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> > > > > I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
> > > > >
> > > > > it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...
> > > > Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always been economically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?
> > > >
> > > > According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's:
> > > > - ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to carry out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_life
> > > interesting to consider what kinds of economic transformations were happening such that the court could become so impoverished at that time. i guess wrapped up with whatever transformations enabled the merchant classes to so far outpace the wealth of landed aristocrats soon after...
> > >
> > > anyway the idea of gagaku performance as static / a living fossil is totally mythological, even leaving aside the multiple 50 or 100 year gaps in performance after which the music was 'revived'/recreated/reimagined, there is also significant evidence that performance practice changed hugely with transitions from court-employed entertainers to amateur aristocratic circles to temple ritualists and back to court-employed ritualists. so, to your idea about changing performance venue, it makes sense, but it's hard to say anything stronger than 'maybe'.
> > According to this:
> >
> > - Daiei 5, on the 1st day of the 1st month (1525): All ceremonies in the court were suspended because of the lack of funds to support them.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Kashiwabara#Events_of_Go-Kashiwabara's_life
> According to this:
>
> - After the end of the War, there was little enthusiasm for reviving the Imperial Court's ancient ceremonies.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Tsuchimikado#Events_of_Go-Tsuchimikado's_life

According to this:

- Tenbun 20, 8th to 9th month (1551): Courtiers in preparation to move the emperor from war-torn Kyoto to the Ōuchi city of Yamaguchi were caught in the Tainei-ji incident, a coup within the Ōuchi clan. The massacre of the courtiers in Yamaguchi resulted in a widespread loss of court records along with knowledge of court rituals and imperial calendar-making.[5] The emperor remained in Kyoto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_life

On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
> > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > >
> > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
> > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > >
> > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > According to this:
> > >
> > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > >
> > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
>
> it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...

Could this apply to gagaku?:

https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/PKYnU5QcFIU

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:37:57 AM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for..... Qin
> > > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again..
> > > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > > >
> > > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > > According to this:
> > > >
> > > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> > I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
> >
> > it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...
> Could this apply to gagaku?:
>
> https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/PKYnU5QcFIU

IMO, Nietzsche is here identifying something real about the development of both gagaku and WCM, but in typical enlightenment and post-enlightenment European philosopher fashion, he pretty much arbitrarily universalizes his observation to end up at a basically absurd claim. I can think of roughly a million counterexamples.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:35:43 AM UTC-4, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 2:37:57 AM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for..... Qin
> > > > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
> > > > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > > > According to this:
> > > > >
> > > > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > > > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> > > I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
> > >
> > > it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...
> > Could this apply to gagaku?:
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/PKYnU5QcFIU
> IMO, Nietzsche is here identifying something real about the development of both gagaku and WCM, but in typical enlightenment and post-enlightenment European philosopher fashion, he pretty much arbitrarily universalizes his observation to end up at a basically absurd claim. I can think of roughly a million counterexamples.

And even in the case of gagaku and WCM it's important to note that 'a tradition' simply 'aging' is not at all the driver of the trend.

On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 11:56:17 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 10:13:22 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 12:28:51 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
> > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > >
> > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
> > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > >
> > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > According to this:
> > >
> > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > >
> > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
>
> it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...

If you go to 16:30 of the following Youtube upload, you can hear the sound of the soo (gagaku koto) played by itself:

"Sounds of the Court: Gagaku and Ryukyu Uzagaku　国立劇場令和4年11月雅楽公演「宮廷の響き"

On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:22:23 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 4:57:35 PM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 28, 2023 at 11:45:35 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:06:40 PM UTC-5, gggg gggg wrote:
> > > > On Monday, January 9, 2023 at 7:01:11 AM UTC-8, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 3:12:34 PM UTC-5,
> > > > > > > > > On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 5:24:37 PM UTC-8, Todd M. McComb wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > In article <794e0443-1ecd-4cbc...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > > > > > > > cheregi <elir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >... i go in a direction of privileging the amateur, non-'pyrotechnics'
> > > > > > > > > > >virtuosity of like, qin music for example.
> > > > > > > > > > There's always a question of asking what virtuosity is for.... Qin
> > > > > > > > > > music is a good example, because there it's about developing oneself.
> > > > > > > > > > I.e., in some sense, it's irrelevant to the listener.
> > > > > > > > > Concerning your comment, "...It's irrelevant to the listener", as far as I know, the qin was never meant to be played before an audience, much less a paying audience.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Listening to the qin and especially playing it seems to have a calming effect--like stroking the back of a purring cat over and over again.
> > > > > > > > do you play qin? i'm envious.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > anyway, though i of course object to language like 'meant to' in this context, it's certainly true that the concert hall is a novel environment for qin ... but available historical evidence strongly suggests also that for the whole history of the qin a MAJOR performance context has been parties at which wine is drunk, poems are extemporized, etc. Bell Yung's book on Tsar Teh-yun gives what I can only assume is a good impression of the vibe...
> > > > > > > According to this:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > - The sound of guqin is quite unique, deep, remote, lingering, ethereal and especially “quiet,” which means that the instrument is designed to be performed in intimate settings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.shine.cn/feature/art-culture/1804042663/
> > > > > > As far as I am concerned, even qin recordings give the impression that the instrument is louder than it really is as if the qin was miked too closely.
> > > > > I am glad to get this from someone who it seems has actually heard qin in person, because i do get the sense for example in Jin Wei or some Sou Si-tai recordings that the instrument can't possibly really be that bassy and huge-sounding, and it's kind of annoying to think there's a specific agenda even at the audio-mixing level of making the music more 'exciting'.
> > > > >
> > > > > it reminds me of finding out that when gagaku is performed live and unamplified, the zithers are basically inaudible, but in virtually every gagaku recording the levels of the zithers are brought up to match the winds and drums out of a sense of 'orchestral' logic where every instrument group should be 'balanced'... whereas to me it's much more interesting to consider the specific needs of 'ritual sound' and how those differ from the aesthetic sensibilities of a human audience attending for pleasure...
> > > > Considering how close modern performances are to ancient performances (and whether modern performances have been made to adapt to the expectations of modern audiences), it may be of interest to know that the emperor of Japan has not always been economically prosperous. At those times, were the musicians and their performances affected and did that influence performances of the future in not being as lavish as in the past?
> > > >
> > > > According to Wikipedia's article on an emperor who lived in the 1500's:
> > > > - ...The Imperial Court was so impoverished, that a nationwide appeal for contributions went out. Contributions from the Hōjō clan, the Ōuchi clan, the Imagawa clan, and other great daimyō clans of the Sengoku period allowed the Emperor to carry out the formal coronation ceremonies ten years later. The Imperial Court's poverty was so extreme that the Emperor was forced to sell his calligraphy.
> > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Nara#Events_of_Go-Nara's_life
> > > interesting to consider what kinds of economic transformations were happening such that the court could become so impoverished at that time. i guess wrapped up with whatever transformations enabled the merchant classes to so far outpace the wealth of landed aristocrats soon after...
> > >
> > > anyway the idea of gagaku performance as static / a living fossil is totally mythological, even leaving aside the multiple 50 or 100 year gaps in performance after which the music was 'revived'/recreated/reimagined, there is also significant evidence that performance practice changed hugely with transitions from court-employed entertainers to amateur aristocratic circles to temple ritualists and back to court-employed ritualists. so, to your idea about changing performance venue, it makes sense, but it's hard to say anything stronger than 'maybe'.
> > According to this:
> >
> > - Daiei 5, on the 1st day of the 1st month (1525): All ceremonies in the court were suspended because of the lack of funds to support them.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Kashiwabara#Events_of_Go-Kashiwabara's_life
>
> According to this:
>
> - After the end of the War, there was little enthusiasm for reviving the Imperial Court's ancient ceremonies.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Go-Tsuchimikado#Events_of_Go-Tsuchimikado's_life

According to Chatbot BARD:

Gagaku is a very well-preserved ancient form of music and dance that originated in China and was introduced to Japan in the 7th century. It is still performed today in Japan, and it is considered to be a national treasure.

Gagaku is characterized by its use of traditional instruments, such as the koto (a 13-string zither), the flute, and the drum. The music is often accompanied by dance, and it is performed in a very formal and elegant style.

Gagaku is a very important part of Japanese culture. It is seen as a symbol of Japan's long and rich history, and it is used to mark important occasions, such as the coronation of a new emperor.

There are a number of reasons why gagaku has been so well-preserved. One reason is that it has always been supported by the Japanese government. The government has established schools and academies where gagaku is taught, and it has also sponsored performances of gagaku.

Another reason for the preservation of gagaku is that it has always been seen as a very important part of Japanese culture. It is associated with the imperial court, and it is seen as a symbol of Japan's national identity.

Finally, gagaku has been able to survive because it is a very beautiful and elegant form of music and dance. It is something that people enjoy listening to and watching, and it is something that they are proud to be a part of..

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 2:09:49 AM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> According to Chatbot BARD:
>
>
> Gagaku is a very well-preserved ancient form of music and dance that originated in China and was introduced to Japan in the 7th century. It is still performed today in Japan, and it is considered to be a national treasure.
>
> Gagaku is characterized by its use of traditional instruments, such as the koto (a 13-string zither), the flute, and the drum. The music is often accompanied by dance, and it is performed in a very formal and elegant style.
>
> Gagaku is a very important part of Japanese culture. It is seen as a symbol of Japan's long and rich history, and it is used to mark important occasions, such as the coronation of a new emperor.
>
> There are a number of reasons why gagaku has been so well-preserved. One reason is that it has always been supported by the Japanese government. The government has established schools and academies where gagaku is taught, and it has also sponsored performances of gagaku.
>
> Another reason for the preservation of gagaku is that it has always been seen as a very important part of Japanese culture. It is associated with the imperial court, and it is seen as a symbol of Japan's national identity.
>
> Finally, gagaku has been able to survive because it is a very beautiful and elegant form of music and dance. It is something that people enjoy listening to and watching, and it is something that they are proud to be a part of.

awful

On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 12:34:46 PM UTC-7, Ellie Kerry wrote:
> On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 2:09:49 AM UTC-4, gggg gggg wrote:
> > According to Chatbot BARD:
> >
> >
> > Gagaku is a very well-preserved ancient form of music and dance that originated in China and was introduced to Japan in the 7th century. It is still performed today in Japan, and it is considered to be a national treasure..
> >
> > Gagaku is characterized by its use of traditional instruments, such as the koto (a 13-string zither), the flute, and the drum. The music is often accompanied by dance, and it is performed in a very formal and elegant style.
> >
> > Gagaku is a very important part of Japanese culture. It is seen as a symbol of Japan's long and rich history, and it is used to mark important occasions, such as the coronation of a new emperor.
> >
> > There are a number of reasons why gagaku has been so well-preserved. One reason is that it has always been supported by the Japanese government. The government has established schools and academies where gagaku is taught, and it has also sponsored performances of gagaku.
> >
> > Another reason for the preservation of gagaku is that it has always been seen as a very important part of Japanese culture. It is associated with the imperial court, and it is seen as a symbol of Japan's national identity..
> >
> > Finally, gagaku has been able to survive because it is a very beautiful and elegant form of music and dance. It is something that people enjoy listening to and watching, and it is something that they are proud to be a part of.
> awful

In the 1300's, the royal family split and after World War II, a man named Kumazawa Hiromichi claimed that Hirohito was illegitimate:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Court