Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
section gets faded up to MAX.

Mahler 2. It used to be special.

--
- Alex Brown

On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
> Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.
>
> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
> when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
> section gets faded up to MAX.
>
> Mahler 2. It used to be special.

Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.

On 13/04/2023 04:39, Oscar wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
>> Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.
>>
>> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
>> when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
>> section gets faded up to MAX.
>>
>> Mahler 2. It used to be special.
>
> Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.

He's been good on record too. His SWR Mahler 3 is one of my favourites ...

--
- Alex Brown

On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 01:19:46 UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
> Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.
>
> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
> when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
> section gets faded up to MAX.
>
> Mahler 2. It used to be special.
>
> --
> - Alex Brown

We have heard so many Mahler recordings since the day Mahler was the new thing, that we've become Mahlerised. For me his 1st, 6th, 7th and Das Lied are still a bit special, but the 2nd has not worn well. Bruckner has fared better to my ears.

Ray Hall, Taree

raymond....@gmail.com <raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 01:19:46 UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
>> Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.
>>
>> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
>> when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
>> section gets faded up to MAX.
>>
>> Mahler 2. It used to be special.
>>
>> --
>> - Alex Brown
>
> We have heard so many Mahler recordings since the day Mahler was the new
> thing, that we've become Mahlerised. For me his 1st, 6th, 7th and Das
> Lied are still a bit special, but the 2nd has not worn well. Bruckner has
> fared better to my ears.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
>
>
>

Hi Ray, for me it has been the opposite. I have tried to get Bruckner,
hearing some live performances with Chicago and numerous recordings, but to
no avail. For me, Mahler is different. I like everything he wrote and can
find enjoyment even in just average recordings. To each his own I guess :)

—
Paul Goodman

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 2:56:13 PM UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
> On 13/04/2023 04:39, Oscar wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
> >> Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.
> >>
> >> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
> >> when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
> >> section gets faded up to MAX.
> >>
> >> Mahler 2. It used to be special.
> >
> > Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.
> He's been good on record too. His SWR Mahler 3 is one of my favourites ....
>
> --
> - Alex Brown

So the answer lies not in the stars like Mr Bychkov, but in ourselves? Do we, perhaps, feel nostalgia for the days when a new recording of a big Mahler symphony was a rare and much-anticipated event?

Meanwhile, Bychkov has conducted Cosi Fan Tutte at Covent Garden, and the performance, plus a documentary about this production, are available from ROH Stream.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 2023-04-13 23:11:02 +0000, Andrew Clarke said:

> On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 2:56:13 PM UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
>> On 13/04/2023 04:39, Oscar wrote:> > On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at
>> 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:> >> Yet another clean, ho-hum
>> recording of this.> >>> >> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40
>> into the second movement> >> when the mix goes completey awry for
>> several seconds as the woodwind> >> section gets faded up to MAX.> >>>
>> >> Mahler 2. It used to be special.> >> > Bychkov's Mahler was so good
>> in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.
>> He's been good on record too. His SWR Mahler 3 is one of my favourites
>> ...>> --> - Alex Brown
>
> So the answer lies not in the stars like Mr Bychkov, but in ourselves?
> Do we, perhaps, feel nostalgia for the days when a new recording of a
> big Mahler symphony was a rare and much-anticipated event?
>
> Meanwhile, Bychkov has conducted Cosi Fan Tutte at Covent Garden, and
> the performance, plus a documentary about this production, are
> available from ROH Stream.
>

It was not only rare and much anticipated, but it was a race!

All of Bernstein, Solti, and Tennstedt (and others) trying to get on
vinyl their latest recordings. Don't quite know who won, but probably
we all did (though hasn't Solti rather dissipated in admirers lately?)

-Owen

> Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.

He did it with the NYPO around that time, IIRC. Very disappointing. I have a recording of one of the concerts in the run to refresh my memory. An overrated conductor. His current 2nd is also disappointing, as pointed out by French critics who are always right about everything: https://www.forumopera..com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/

Simonel

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 2:34:39 PM UTC+10, simonelvladtepes wrote:
> > Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.
> He did it with the NYPO around that time, IIRC. Very disappointing. I have a recording of one of the concerts in the run to refresh my memory. An overrated conductor. His current 2nd is also disappointing, as pointed out by French critics who are always right about everything: https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/
>
> Simonel

M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian. And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.

Meanwhile, The Davold's acolytes are already eagerly awaiting his reaction to this particular recording. As I rely on this critic's recommendations to compile my must-have list - a new recording of The Planets from Bavaria being the latest example - I suppose I will eventually have to buy Mr Bychkov's Mahler myself.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 3:35:27 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
>
> M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian.
> And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.

Even Belgians agree that Belgians are stupid.

dk

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:41:19 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 3:35:27 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> >
> > M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian.
> > And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.
> Even Belgians agree that Belgians are stupid.
>
> dk

The exception being Bobby Jaspar,

On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:40:30 PM UTC+10, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:41:19 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 3:35:27 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> > >
> > > M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian.
> > > And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.
> > Even Belgians agree that Belgians are stupid.
> >
> > dk
> The exception being Bobby Jaspar from Liege, a brilliant saxophonist and flautist who was mixing it with the big boys in the USA just before his early death. He was also bright enough to be married to Blossom Dearie for a few years ...

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 2:17:48 PM UTC-4, Paul Goodman wrote:
> raymond....@gmail.com <raymond....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 01:19:46 UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
> >> Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.
> >>
> >> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
> >> when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
> >> section gets faded up to MAX.
> >>
> >> Mahler 2. It used to be special.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Alex Brown
> >
> > We have heard so many Mahler recordings since the day Mahler was the new
> > thing, that we've become Mahlerised. For me his 1st, 6th, 7th and Das
> > Lied are still a bit special, but the 2nd has not worn well. Bruckner has
> > fared better to my ears.
> >
> > Ray Hall, Taree
> >
> >
> >
> Hi Ray, for me it has been the opposite. I have tried to get Bruckner,
> hearing some live performances with Chicago and numerous recordings, but to
> no avail. For me, Mahler is different. I like everything he wrote and can
> find enjoyment even in just average recordings. To each his own I guess :)

It took a while, but Bruckner's fourth and eighth have for decades been works
I enjoy. I do listen to other Bruckner, but so far, while I don't actively dislike
those works, none have yet become favourites.

For the record, I like everything by Mahler except the eighth. I'm working on
that.

William Hyde

> https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/

Bychkov strongly disappoints

We will certainly not claim that any symphony by Mahler is easy to
play, and even less to record. This being said, the Second is
undoubtedly the one that poses the fewest challenges to the conductor:
its rectilinear trajectory from shadow to light, its gradual rise in
power, its logical use of musical means, which add up instead of to
disperse as in the Third, the luminosity of its finale, the story that
underlies the musical text, all combine to make the work readable, and
to ensure its effect, in concert as on disc. Just let yourself be
carried away by the fiery breath of Mahlerian lyricism, link the
different episodes of the epic, trust the text, and you're done. We
understand even less the obvious failure of Semyon Bychkov. While his
first two parts of what promises to be a new complete (the Fourth and
the Fifth) laid more than respectable milestones, we are surprised to
see a confirmed conductor collapse in this way in a studio recording.
In terms of interpretation, Bychkov's only project seems to be to
break up the musical text into a multitude of unrelated
micro-episodes, transforming these 86 minutes into a succession of
explosions followed by the most impalpable pianissimi, without that
one perceives the slightest necessity in the passage from one to the
other.

This excessive solicitation of the text is particularly irritating in
the first movement, which never manages to find its unity and which
makes you seasick by dint of hesitating between affects that sound
arbitrary. It seems that the chef takes a malicious pleasure in giving
reason to the critics of the creation, who heard in all this nothing
but hullabaloo. Debussy, who spoke of a "pneumatic giant", can breathe
easily. The second movement is better off, although it still falls
short of its poetic potential, and the pizzicati sequence is much too
slow and amorphous. The scherzo does not advance, and we are surprised
to look at his watch, whereas it is normally a breathless episode,
where we are as if hanging on the conductor's baton. But how stuffy,
heavy, noisy and shallow it all sounds. The Urlicht passes without
problem, thanks to the brass of a Czech Philharmonic Orchestra who
remain great musicians (the trumpets!) and to the beautiful mezzo of
Elisabeth Kulman, who knows how to phrase her lied with pleasure.

Alas, the finale returns to all the flaws mentioned, and never leaves
a sequential and anecdotal tone, making the vast apocalyptic fresco
look like a banal peplum. One might have hoped that the choral
intervention would save the day, but the Prague Philharmonic Choir is
poorly captured at first (a sound that is too diffuse), its German
diction is indecisive, and it trips over the carpet several times. ,
especially when the tempo increases, and the phrases have to bounce
from one desk to another. Rather than fluttering, they drag and the
overall effect is completely missed.

Is this recording devoid of qualities? Certainly not. As we have said,
the Czech Philharmonic remains a first-rate phalanx, and the way in
which the strings detail their different levels of writing can amaze
at times, as well as certain individualities in the woodwinds (the
flutes). Two problems however: these beautiful sounds are hardly
distinguishable from those found on the international circuit, and
above all they are not really used by the conductor to build something
coherent at the interpretative level. We will however set aside the
performance of the soprano, Christiane Karg, whose voice escaped from
paradise and the delicate crack hover light years above all this
pensum. Bernstein, Mehta and Haitink can rest easy, their discographic
supremacy is hardly threatened.

On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 8:03:17 AM UTC+10, Mr. Mike wrote:
> > https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/
>
> Bychkov strongly disappoints
>

Thankyou for your translation, Mike.
BTW apart from the OP, has anybody else actually heard the recording?
I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:46:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Clarke
<andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:

>I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.

Harding did Ives' Three Places in New England with Berlin Philharmonic
some time ago. The audience was hard-pressed to bring him back with
applause even once!

On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 1:33:36 AM UTC+10, Mr. Mike wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:46:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Clarke
> <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.
> Harding did Ives' Three Places in New England with Berlin Philharmonic
> some time ago. The audience was hard-pressed to bring him back with
> applause even once!

One swallow some time ago does not make a summer. Especially if the swallow is Ives and the perch is the Philharmoniker.

Have you listened to his The Planets or does his alleged failure in Berlin some time ago excuse you from so doing?

Andrew Clarke
Canberra

On 22/04/2023 17:11, Andrew Clarke wrote:
> On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 1:33:36 AM UTC+10, Mr. Mike wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:46:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Clarke
>> <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.
>> Harding did Ives' Three Places in New England with Berlin Philharmonic
>> some time ago. The audience was hard-pressed to bring him back with
>> applause even once!
>
> One swallow some time ago does not make a summer. Especially if the swallow is Ives and the perch is the Philharmoniker.
>
> Have you listened to his The Planets or does his alleged failure in Berlin some time ago excuse you from so doing?
>
> Andrew Clarke
> Canberra

My interest was piqued by this exchange so I did start to listen, but
only got through Mars. Mr Hurwitz was right in that it is a very
soft-grained affair without menace or tang, and is very much not helped
by a low-impact, distant recording (unusually from this label for the
BRSO).

- Alex.

On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-5, Alex Brown wrote:
> My interest was piqued by this exchange so I did start to listen, but
> only got through Mars. Mr Hurwitz was right in that it is a very
> soft-grained affair without menace or tang, and is very much not helped
> by a low-impact, distant recording (unusually from this label for the
> BRSO).
> - Alex.

To my mind the BRSO has had some of the most beautiful recordings over recent years, so I was interested to hear this. When I say that, I'm talking about the recordings themselves, which I've always suspected of being digitally "juiced" to create a warmer, more spacious acoustic. Not that I care where it comes from- they sound great. So when Jansons was his somewhat soggy self, the results were sometimes still entirely delightful (Shchedrin Carmen) while other recordings were fatally flabby (Beethoven and Brahms symphonies).

The listen: it's not as bad as I expected. In fact, there's some good and some bad. But the value of Boult's martial air is clear. This is simply not an orchestra that is willing to take a rhythmic phrase and drive it in time, and Harding is not the one to bring such discipline. Nope, what we get are plump, pleasant sounds. Mercury and Jupiter seemed pretty well-executed if a bit tame. Listening to Saturn now and four minutes in, the funeral-march manner has not abated. I like what I'm hearing- it's a rather surprising take. Lordy, here we are at 6:00 and they are playing this like the scale is just epic. It is an interesting interpretive idea. Not a first choice, or anywhere near, but I'm not bored by it. Very dreamy. Uh-oh- the manner continues into Uranus. Big mistake. This is the worst movement so far. Climaxes are cloudy and the pacing is stuck in low gear. Almost all the rhythms are too softened up. Neptune: more slog. There's no thread to the line at all.. Dreadful. No wonder Dave savaged this. The performances seem to get worse and worse the further out of the solar system you get.

I'm listening on headphones. Calling the recording "distant" isn't really fair. That makes me think of Chandos recordings where the mics seemed further back and the stereo image was more compressed for it. Chandos was reasonably honest in exposing the tradeoffs in mic placement. Here we have stereo ambiance galore. And I'm not sure the mics are that distant at all; it's just there is so much ambiance, you do tend to lose the rhythmic line when quieter instruments are so submerged. This really is a recording where the more instruments play, the worse the sound is. The dynamics are fairly compressed, overall.

C-

Someone check out Neptune from 4:18 to 4:28. Isn't that some sort of phase issue with the recording? There is no way that pulse pattern should be coming from the horns.

El jueves 20 de abril, William Hyde escribió:
> For the record, I like everything by Mahler except the eighth. I'm working
> on that.

Listen to the Abbado one. It has a great amount of 8th magic :)

--
Davinci