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arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

SubjectAuthor
* Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908WolfBear
`* Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908Chrysi Cat
 +- Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908Robert Woodward
 `* Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908The Horny Goat
  `* Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908Chrysi Cat
   `* Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908The Horny Goat
    `* Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908Chrysi Cat
     +- Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908Chrysi Cat
     `- Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908Chrysi Cat

1
Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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Subject: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:02 UTC

What happens if Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908?

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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From: chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Tue, 27 Apr 2021 07:58 UTC

On 4/27/2021 1:02 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> What happens if Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908?
>

He likely either winds up effectively President-for-Life [which doesn't
end before the 1921 inaguration, because for obvious reasons he won't be
exploring Brasil in 1913 if he's still in office and that should get him
well clear of 1919), or the backlash is spectacular enough that you
might not get another GOP President until whoever takes Hoover's place.

This likely means his fourth-cousin-once-removed /can't/ do the same,
though it depends on whether Congress, AND the various States, are
incensed enough to pass an amendment that _may still be the 22nd_, since
he'll only be 71 in 1930--and while the family doesn't SEEM to have
/that/ much in the way of enhanced longevity, TR's famous niece survived
to 78 (and her husband, while he only made 63, WAS also struck by a
mysterious disease that may have shortened his life.

No idea what it means for FOREIGN policy; for domestic, if he can be
elected, he'll likely drive the Business Republicans to the Democratic
party if not a third party. If there's a country that's NOT in danger of
falling to the Communists near or just after the end of the Great War
(IRL, if Lenin hadn't been in position to take Russia and thus prove
that Communist /revolution/ was a threat, it's just as likely a
Communist revolution would have struck the UK or US instead), it will
probably be Roosevelt's America, which would cater to the little guy.
And I'm not *entirely* sure the little guy will even have to be *white*,
since this would obviously prevent the segregation _of the executive
agencies_ that was Wilson's doing.

Though I *will* admit that there's some risk that last part means he
only gets two full terms plus the nearly-full one--the key would be
whether enough working-class Americans are able to vote in *practice* or
only in _theory_, combined with SOME risk that without the Business
Republicans, the leftist version of the GOP won't have enough money to
win elections EXCEPT on name recognition for the men in office by 1909.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

<robertaw-AC1356.21285827042021@news.individual.net>

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From: rober...@drizzle.com (Robert Woodward)
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Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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 by: Robert Woodward - Wed, 28 Apr 2021 04:28 UTC

In article <puPhI.148404$PE7.88622@fx39.iad>,
Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 4/27/2021 1:02 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> > What happens if Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908?
> >
>
> He likely either winds up effectively President-for-Life [which doesn't
> end before the 1921 inaguration, because for obvious reasons he won't be
> exploring Brasil in 1913 if he's still in office and that should get him
> well clear of 1919), or the backlash is spectacular enough that you
> might not get another GOP President until whoever takes Hoover's place.
>
> This likely means his fourth-cousin-once-removed /can't/ do the same,
> though it depends on whether Congress, AND the various States, are
> incensed enough to pass an amendment that _may still be the 22nd_, since
> he'll only be 71 in 1930--and while the family doesn't SEEM to have
> /that/ much in the way of enhanced longevity, TR's famous niece survived
> to 78 (and her husband, while he only made 63, WAS also struck by a
> mysterious disease that may have shortened his life.

Theodore's daughter, Alice, did live to 96.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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 by: The Horny Goat - Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:27 UTC

On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 01:58:12 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com>
wrote:

>This likely means his fourth-cousin-once-removed /can't/ do the same,
>though it depends on whether Congress, AND the various States, are
>incensed enough to pass an amendment that _may still be the 22nd_, since
>he'll only be 71 in 1930--and while the family doesn't SEEM to have
>/that/ much in the way of enhanced longevity, TR's famous niece survived
>to 78 (and her husband, while he only made 63, WAS also struck by a
>mysterious disease that may have shortened his life.

Why would TR lasting much longer derail FDR's career?

Are you suggesting FDR wouldn't have gotten his naval role in this
scenario? I'm not convinced that TR's involvement in WW1 would
necessarily have derailed that.

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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 by: Chrysi Cat - Sat, 1 May 2021 04:23 UTC

On 4/29/2021 9:27 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 01:58:12 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This likely means his fourth-cousin-once-removed /can't/ do the same,
>> though it depends on whether Congress, AND the various States, are
>> incensed enough to pass an amendment that _may still be the 22nd_, since
>> he'll only be 71 in 1930--and while the family doesn't SEEM to have
>> /that/ much in the way of enhanced longevity, TR's famous niece survived
>> to 78 (and her husband, while he only made 63, WAS also struck by a
>> mysterious disease that may have shortened his life.
>
> Why would TR lasting much longer derail FDR's career?
>
> Are you suggesting FDR wouldn't have gotten his naval role in this
> scenario? I'm not convinced that TR's involvement in WW1 would
> necessarily have derailed that.
>

I'm not suggesting it has to derail his ELECTION TO THE PRESIDENCY.

But the only way HE'S serving for life is if Congress in 1920- or
30-something doesn't make the same obvious rule patch to avoid it in the
future as it did IOTL 1947.

And I'm honestly not sure that the same feelings about breaking
Washington's Rule aren't going to be in play then.

So that means that *FDR* can only serve 2 terms *because TR served more*.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 2 May 2021 17:17 UTC

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:23:34 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I'm not suggesting it has to derail his ELECTION TO THE PRESIDENCY.
>
>But the only way HE'S serving for life is if Congress in 1920- or
>30-something doesn't make the same obvious rule patch to avoid it in the
>future as it did IOTL 1947.
>
>And I'm honestly not sure that the same feelings about breaking
>Washington's Rule aren't going to be in play then.
>
>So that means that *FDR* can only serve 2 terms *because TR served more*.

As I understand your argument you're suggesting something like the
22nd amendment on term limits would have come long before FDR?

My preferred WI is what would have been the results if FDR had been
sicker in 1940 and chose not to run for a 3rd term despite the
European war. I'm thinking both in terms of what would have been the
result in 1940 and also "WI no 22nd amendment?"

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Mon, 3 May 2021 07:57 UTC

On 5/2/2021 11:17 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:23:34 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not suggesting it has to derail his ELECTION TO THE PRESIDENCY.
>>
>> But the only way HE'S serving for life is if Congress in 1920- or
>> 30-something doesn't make the same obvious rule patch to avoid it in the
>> future as it did IOTL 1947.
>>
>> And I'm honestly not sure that the same feelings about breaking
>> Washington's Rule aren't going to be in play then.
>>
>> So that means that *FDR* can only serve 2 terms *because TR served more*.
>
> As I understand your argument you're suggesting something like the
> 22nd amendment on term limits would have come long before FDR?

As pointed out, since *TR* was never prone to illness unitl the
Expedition, I'm even suggesting the amendment _number_ might still be
22. So maybe not "long before" TR, but "in time that the President
elected in 1932 is subject to them,. Or if he isn't, that's because it
was TR's term, but he SHOULD still die in office before '36".

>
> My preferred WI is what would have been the results if FDR had been
> sicker in 1940 and chose not to run for a 3rd term despite the
> European war. I'm thinking both in terms of what would have been the
> result in 1940 and also "WI no 22nd amendment?"
>

If he manages to communicate to Willkie that he's retiring, and thus
Willkie doesn't seek the REPUBLICAN nom but the Dem one, quite possibly
"a president who dies in office even EARLIER in WWII than IOTL". I DO
have to think that since Willkie was the nearest thing to a Business
DEMOCRAT, he will /not/ be succeeded by Henry Wallace, and I'm terrified
that his running mate might ALSO die (at a time when there's no revised
line of succession yet, so we have an acting President and an election
that as I understand both acting-President statutes, takes the
presidential election permanently out of sync with the current rotation
of Senatorial classes, and might even place it on odd years--I see
nothing about those elections being for the REMAINDER OF THE
PRE-EXISTING TERM)--I seem to recall researching this for another
purpose a few months ago and finding that FAR too many men considered
Presidential timber in 1940 failed to outlive FDR. Further, you have to
wonder if a Willkie who's President will even reach October '44; it's
unlikely that the Presidential Physician of the time would be able to
keep himself to death, and he'd likely do even _more_ stress drinking
than IOTL. Can we kill him (and have him have chosen a VP who kicks it
in '41 or '42) in time to force a 1943 Presidential election?

And If I'm right about "not just to fill the rest of the pre-existing
term", what ARE the long-term effects of Presidential elections coming
in previous off-years?

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

<Z2OjI.73490$D16.58636@fx40.iad>

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Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Mon, 3 May 2021 07:58 UTC

On 5/3/2021 1:57 AM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> On 5/2/2021 11:17 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:23:34 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not suggesting it has to derail his ELECTION TO THE PRESIDENCY.
>>>
>>> But the only way HE'S serving for life is if Congress in 1920- or
>>> 30-something doesn't make the same obvious rule patch to avoid it in the
>>> future as it did IOTL 1947.
>>>
>>> And I'm honestly not sure that the same feelings about breaking
>>> Washington's Rule aren't going to be in play then.
>>>
>>> So that means that *FDR* can only serve 2 terms *because TR served
>>> more*.
>>
>> As I understand your argument you're suggesting something like the
>> 22nd amendment on term limits would have come long before FDR?
>
> As pointed out, since *TR* was never prone to illness unitl the
> Expedition, I'm even suggesting the amendment _number_ might still be
> 22. So maybe not "long before" TR, but "in time that the President
> elected in 1932 is subject to them,. Or if he isn't, that's because it
> was TR's term, but he SHOULD still die in office before '36".
>

Gah. "Maybe not long before *FDR*".

>
>>
>> My preferred WI is what would have been the results if FDR had been
>> sicker in 1940 and chose not to run for a 3rd term despite the
>> European war. I'm thinking both in terms of what would have been the
>> result in 1940 and also "WI no 22nd amendment?"
>>
>
> If he manages to communicate to Willkie that he's retiring, and thus
> Willkie doesn't seek the REPUBLICAN nom but the Dem one, quite possibly
> "a president who dies in office even EARLIER in WWII than IOTL". I DO
> have to think that since Willkie was the nearest thing to a Business
> DEMOCRAT, he will /not/ be succeeded by Henry Wallace, and I'm terrified
> that his running mate might ALSO die (at a time when there's no revised
> line of succession yet, so we have an acting President and an election
> that as I understand both acting-President statutes, takes the
> presidential election permanently out of sync with the current rotation
> of Senatorial classes, and might even place it on odd years--I see
> nothing about those elections being for the REMAINDER OF THE
> PRE-EXISTING TERM)--I seem to recall researching this for another
> purpose a few months ago and finding that FAR too many men considered
> Presidential timber in 1940 failed to outlive FDR. Further, you have to
> wonder if a Willkie who's President will even reach October '44; it's
> unlikely that the Presidential Physician of the time would be able to
> keep himself to death, and he'd likely do even _more_ stress drinking
> than IOTL. Can we kill him (and have him have chosen a VP who kicks it
> in '41 or '42) in time to force a 1943 Presidential election?
>
> And If I'm right about "not just to fill the rest of the pre-existing
> term", what ARE the long-term effects of Presidential elections coming
> in previous off-years?
>

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908

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Subject: Re: Teddy Roosevelt runs again in 1908
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From: chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Mon, 3 May 2021 08:01 UTC

On 5/3/2021 1:57 AM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> On 5/2/2021 11:17 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 22:23:34 -0600, Chrysi Cat <chrysicat@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not suggesting it has to derail his ELECTION TO THE PRESIDENCY.
>>>
>>> But the only way HE'S serving for life is if Congress in 1920- or
>>> 30-something doesn't make the same obvious rule patch to avoid it in the
>>> future as it did IOTL 1947.
>>>
>>> And I'm honestly not sure that the same feelings about breaking
>>> Washington's Rule aren't going to be in play then.
>>>
>>> So that means that *FDR* can only serve 2 terms *because TR served
>>> more*.
>>
>> As I understand your argument you're suggesting something like the
>> 22nd amendment on term limits would have come long before FDR?
>
> As pointed out, since *TR* was never prone to illness unitl the
> Expedition, I'm even suggesting the amendment _number_ might still be
> 22. So maybe not "long before" TR, but "in time that the President
> elected in 1932 is subject to them,. Or if he isn't, that's because it
> was TR's term, but he SHOULD still die in office before '36".
>
>>
>> My preferred WI is what would have been the results if FDR had been
>> sicker in 1940 and chose not to run for a 3rd term despite the
>> European war. I'm thinking both in terms of what would have been the
>> result in 1940 and also "WI no 22nd amendment?"
>>
>
> If he manages to communicate to Willkie that he's retiring, and thus
> Willkie doesn't seek the REPUBLICAN nom but the Dem one, quite possibly
> "a president who dies in office even EARLIER in WWII than IOTL". I DO
> have to think that since Willkie was the nearest thing to a Business
> DEMOCRAT, he will /not/ be succeeded by Henry Wallace, and I'm terrified
> that his running mate might ALSO die (at a time when there's no revised
> line of succession yet, so we have an acting President and an election
> that as I understand both acting-President statutes, takes the
> presidential election permanently out of sync with the current rotation
> of Senatorial classes, and might even place it on odd years--I see
> nothing about those elections being for the REMAINDER OF THE
> PRE-EXISTING TERM)--I seem to recall researching this for another
> purpose a few months ago and finding that FAR too many men considered
> Presidential timber in 1940 failed to outlive FDR. Further, you have to
> wonder if a Willkie who's President will even reach October '44; it's
> unlikely that the Presidential Physician of the time would be able to
> keep

--HIM FROM DRINKING!-- Dammit, Kat, what is WITH you and deleting
important content?

>himself to death, and he'd likely do even _more_ stress drinking
> than IOTL. Can we kill him (and have him have chosen a VP who kicks it
> in '41 or '42) in time to force a 1943 Presidential election?
>
> And If I'm right about "not just to fill the rest of the pre-existing
> term", what ARE the long-term effects of Presidential elections coming
> in previous off-years?
>

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

1
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