The Russian advance in 1914 was stopped at the Battle of Tannenberg. This
was a crushing German victory over the Russians.

With better Russian leadership or luck, it could have avoided the battle
and facing little German resistance could have entered Berlin in 1914. This
would have forced the Germans to move significant troops from the Western
Front.

Quite likely Germany would ask for terms.

What do you think would happen
here?

On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 11:35:18 PM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
> The Russian advance in 1914 was stopped at the Battle of Tannenberg. This
> was a crushing German victory over the Russians.
>
>
>
> With better Russian leadership or luck, it could have avoided the battle
> and facing little German resistance could have entered Berlin in 1914. This
> would have forced the Germans to move significant troops from the Western
> Front.
>
> Quite likely Germany would ask for terms.
>
> What do you think would happen
> here?

Logistics, logistics, logistics.

> SolomonW
>
> What do you think would happen here?

The Russians were playing the "Savior of the Slavs" routine
and would want the rest of what would have been in the OTL,
pre-WWII Poland and probably more, such as Silesia (it’s where
most of the mineral resources are) and Pomerania for the easy
access to the Baltic (maybe leaving a German East Prussia?).

And if the Germans lose, the Austraians don’t stand a chance
and will collapse right after them, effectively giving Imperial
Russia everything Soviet Russia got after WWII.

I’d say the next question is; do the Russians straight-up absorb
Central/Eastern/Balkan Europe into their empire or do they set
up puppet states? Either way, the Poles for sure and other ethnic
groups will want full independence.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 11:43:08 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:

> On Thursday, April 29, 2021 at 11:35:18 PM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
>> The Russian advance in 1914 was stopped at the Battle of Tannenberg. This
>> was a crushing German victory over the Russians.
>>
>>
>>
>> With better Russian leadership or luck, it could have avoided the battle
>> and facing little German resistance could have entered Berlin in 1914. This
>> would have forced the Germans to move significant troops from the Western
>> Front.
>>
>> Quite likely Germany would ask for terms.
>>
>> What do you think would happen
>> here?
>
> Logistics, logistics, logistics.

I cannot see that stopping Russia here.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:25:05 -0700 (PDT), edstas...@gmail.com wrote:

>> SolomonW
>>
>> What do you think would happen here?
>
> The Russians were playing the "Savior of the Slavs" routine
> and would want the rest of what would have been in the OTL,
> pre-WWII Poland and probably more, such as Silesia (it’s where
> most of the mineral resources are) and Pomerania for the easy
> access to the Baltic (maybe leaving a German East Prussia?).
>
> And if the Germans lose, the Austraians don’t stand a chance
> and will collapse right after them, effectively giving Imperial
> Russia everything Soviet Russia got after WWII.

I am not sure Imperial Russia wants that much.

Germany would find that France would probably want something too.

Then you have Britain that would be worried if one state became too
powerful in Europe.

>
> I’d say the next question is; do the Russians straight-up absorb
> Central/Eastern/Balkan Europe into their empire or do they set
> up puppet states?

Tzarist Russia would absorb.

> Either way, the Poles for sure and other ethnic
> groups will want full independence.

I doubt they will get it soon.

On Sat, 1 May 2021 18:06:28 +1000, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:25:05 -0700 (PDT), edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> SolomonW
>>>
>>> What do you think would happen here?
>>
>> The Russians were playing the "Savior of the Slavs" routine
>> and would want the rest of what would have been in the OTL,
>> pre-WWII Poland and probably more, such as Silesia (it’s where
>> most of the mineral resources are) and Pomerania for the easy
>> access to the Baltic (maybe leaving a German East Prussia?).
>>
>> And if the Germans lose, the Austraians don’t stand a chance
>> and will collapse right after them, effectively giving Imperial
>> Russia everything Soviet Russia got after WWII.
>
>I am not sure Imperial Russia wants that much.
>
>Germany would find that France would probably want something too.
>
>Then you have Britain that would be worried if one state became too
>powerful in Europe.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I’d say the next question is; do the Russians straight-up absorb
>> Central/Eastern/Balkan Europe into their empire or do they set
>> up puppet states?
>
>Tzarist Russia would absorb.
>
>
>> Either way, the Poles for sure and other ethnic
>> groups will want full independence.
>
>I doubt they will get it soon.

With a victorious Russia? Hahahahaha!

What made 1918 almost unique in modern history is that BOTH Russia and
Germany were on their knees. Most wars since the Renaissance that have
involved these powers have had one of them completely defeated but I
don't know of another case where both were simultaneously.

This is what made Versailles unique though as I have documented
elsewhere it was NOT notably harsh towards the losing side as compared
to pretty much all peace treaties from 1763 forward.

> SolomonW
> > Ed Stasiak
> >
> > And if the Germans lose, the Austraians don’t stand a chance
> > and will collapse right after them, effectively giving Imperial
> > Russia everything Soviet Russia got after WWII.
>
> I am not sure Imperial Russia wants that much.

I’m thinking they would, the Russians picked-up the imperialism bug
from the Mongols and got a booster-shot from the Germanized Czars
and this is their best chance ever to grab the whole shebang.

> Germany would find that France would probably want something too.

Everything they got after OTL WWI-WWII.

> Then you have Britain that would be worried if one state became too
> powerful in Europe.

Dunno what the Brits could do about it at that point, other then fund
and try to supply anti-Russian forces in the East?

On the other hand, neither the UK nor France has taken horrendous
causalities as in the OTL.

> > Either way, the Poles for sure and other ethnic groups will want
> > full independence.
>
> I doubt they will get it soon.

Then the Russians are looking at revolts all over the place and
unlike after OTL WWII, Poland, Czechia, the Balkans, the Baltics,
etc. aren’t utterly trashed from 5+ years of the worst war in
history.

Plus a lot of those Imperial Russian troops (including my maternal
grandfather) are Poles, Lithuanians and such as well as lot of the
German and Austrian armies (including my paternal grandfather).

Furthermore, The Russians in 1914 don’t have tanks, trucks, high
speed fighters and bombers, katyusha rocket launchers, etc. so
the fighting would be much more even.

On Sun, 02 May 2021 10:14:05 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Sat, 1 May 2021 18:06:28 +1000, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 16:25:05 -0700 (PDT), edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>> SolomonW
>>>>
>>>> What do you think would happen here?
>>>
>>> The Russians were playing the "Savior of the Slavs" routine
>>> and would want the rest of what would have been in the OTL,
>>> pre-WWII Poland and probably more, such as Silesia (it’s where
>>> most of the mineral resources are) and Pomerania for the easy
>>> access to the Baltic (maybe leaving a German East Prussia?).
>>>
>>> And if the Germans lose, the Austraians don’t stand a chance
>>> and will collapse right after them, effectively giving Imperial
>>> Russia everything Soviet Russia got after WWII.
>>
>>I am not sure Imperial Russia wants that much.
>>
>>Germany would find that France would probably want something too.
>>
>>Then you have Britain that would be worried if one state became too
>>powerful in Europe.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I’d say the next question is; do the Russians straight-up absorb
>>> Central/Eastern/Balkan Europe into their empire or do they set
>>> up puppet states?
>>
>>Tzarist Russia would absorb.
>>
>>
>>> Either way, the Poles for sure and other ethnic
>>> groups will want full independence.
>>
>>I doubt they will get it soon.
>
> With a victorious Russia? Hahahahaha!

Russia would grab all of Poland.

>
> What made 1918 almost unique in modern history is that BOTH Russia and
> Germany were on their knees. Most wars since the Renaissance that have
> involved these powers have had one of them completely defeated but I
> don't know of another case where both were simultaneously.
>
> This is what made Versailles unique though as I have documented
> elsewhere it was NOT notably harsh towards the losing side as compared
> to pretty much all peace treaties from 1763 forward.

What it was, was unenforceable in practice.

On Sun, 2 May 2021 16:13:19 -0700 (PDT), edstas...@gmail.com wrote:

>> SolomonW
>>> Ed Stasiak
>>>
>>> And if the Germans lose, the Austraians don’t stand a chance
>>> and will collapse right after them, effectively giving Imperial
>>> Russia everything Soviet Russia got after WWII.
>>
>> I am not sure Imperial Russia wants that much.
>
> I’m thinking they would, the Russians picked-up the imperialism bug
> from the Mongols and got a booster-shot from the Germanized Czars
> and this is their best chance ever to grab the whole shebang.

Russia gave up Alaska

>
>> Germany would find that France would probably want something too.
>
> Everything they got after OTL WWI-WWII.

What they got was nothing Germany.

>
>> Then you have Britain that would be worried if one state became too
>> powerful in Europe.
>
> Dunno what the Brits could do about it at that point, other then fund
> and try to supply anti-Russian forces in the East?
>
> On the other hand, neither the UK nor France has taken horrendous
> causalities as in the OTL.
>
>>> Either way, the Poles for sure and other ethnic groups will want
>>> full independence.
>>
>> I doubt they will get it soon.
>
> Then the Russians are looking at revolts all over the place and
> unlike after OTL WWII, Poland, Czechia, the Balkans, the Baltics,
> etc. aren’t utterly trashed from 5+ years of the worst war in
> history.
>
> Plus a lot of those Imperial Russian troops (including my maternal
> grandfather) are Poles, Lithuanians and such as well as lot of the
> German and Austrian armies (including my paternal grandfather).
>
> Furthermore, The Russians in 1914 don’t have tanks, trucks, high
> speed fighters and bombers, katyusha rocket launchers, etc. so
> the fighting would be much more even.

But Russia had a bigger army then anyone else in 1914.

On Tue, 4 May 2021 17:37:00 +1000, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> wrote:

>> This is what made Versailles unique though as I have documented
>> elsewhere it was NOT notably harsh towards the losing side as compared
>> to pretty much all peace treaties from 1763 forward.
>
>What it was, was unenforceable in practice.

Which I would argue was most of all a failure of will.

I think everybody at Versailles knew that at some point Germany would
recover and probably Russia too (though less certain since during
Versailles was the Russian Civil War period) but don't think they
envisioned the sort of totalitarian regimes that actually happened.

On Thu, 06 May 2021 08:54:11 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Tue, 4 May 2021 17:37:00 +1000, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com> wrote:
>
>>> This is what made Versailles unique though as I have documented
>>> elsewhere it was NOT notably harsh towards the losing side as compared
>>> to pretty much all peace treaties from 1763 forward.
>>
>>What it was, was unenforceable in practice.
>
> Which I would argue was most of all a failure of will.

In theory, the French and Polish could have gone in force into Germany in
1936 and crushed Hitler and installed a democratic republic. However, I am
not sure what the future consequences would have been. Hitler in 1936 was
very popular in Germany. It would produce a much more dubious legitimate
government than the Weimar Republic.

>
> I think everybody at Versailles knew that at some point Germany would
> recover and probably Russia too (though less certain since during
> Versailles was the Russian Civil War period) but don't think they
> envisioned the sort of totalitarian regimes that actually happened.

Agreed.

They must have known that few governments or peoples in Central or
Eastern Europe were happy with what they came delivered.

Would they care about this?