According to a series of videos by David H. he must be the one. Although he admits that the orchestra is so-so, the conductor is not a major conductor, and the performances are mainly just good but not the best, he praises the VOX recordings newly rereleased by Naxos of several Tchaikovsky recordings to heaven. Most recently Abravanel's recording of the Manfred Symphony seems to be the best evvvver.
Dave seems to like such conductors a lot, also Slatkin and Neeme Järvi..
But are these really worth listening and acquiring?

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 12:42:25 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>
> But are these really worth listening and acquiring?

Of course not.
What do you think is going to happen; you're suddenly going to think Tchaikovsky is a totally different composer than you thought he was?
This is called the Connoisseur Fallacy.
You mention a recording or performance that is not totally mainstream, you claim to hgear things never heard before and talk as if it's a revelation.

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 6:52:59 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 12:42:25 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> >
> > But are these really worth listening and acquiring?
> Of course not.
> What do you think is going to happen; you're suddenly going to think Tchaikovsky is a totally different composer than you thought he was?
> This is called the Connoisseur Fallacy.
> You mention a recording or performance that is not totally mainstream, you claim to hear things never heard before and talk as if it's a revelation.

The actual answer is "who knows"? The role of the critic these days is not as important as it once was. Why waste your energies developing a grand theory of where a writer's taste intersects with sentiment (even if it does, even if patterns can be seen, even if it is verifiably real- is that worth your energies?) Get a free spotify account, suffer through some ads, and listen to them yourself. You'll be no poorer for it.

I'm taking my own medicine on Spotify right now. I don't own a single Abravanel recording. Sampled R&J and Winter Dreams (pedantic and literal to my ears). Twelve minutes in, Manfred has quite good line- it's not a piece I know well or have liked much in the past. This one sounds fine so far, if not th ebest Tchaikovsky. YMMV.

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 3:17:06 PM UTC+2, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:

>You'll be no poorer for it.
>
Oh I definitely will be poorer for it.
I will have listened to some tired old warhorses by a bunch of performers I have no interest in.
That's not what I want to do with my time.

There are millions of 'recommendations' and urgent points of view on youtube every goddamn day. Imagine I were to follow up even one in a thousand of those, I would have no life anymore.

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 8:47:34 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 3:17:06 PM UTC+2, mswd...@gmail..com wrote:
>
> >You'll be no poorer for it.
> >
> Oh I definitely will be poorer for it.
> I will have listened to some tired old warhorses by a bunch of performers I have no interest in.
> That's not what I want to do with my time.
>
> There are millions of 'recommendations' and urgent points of view on youtube every goddamn day. Imagine I were to follow up even one in a thousand of those, I would have no life anymore.

Well, aren't you the life of the party! You've offered an opinion that is no less strong, and seem to think that since it is negative, it is better. I'll simply suggest that when you trust someone else's opinion about something you are curious about to the degree that you won't listen and decide for yourself, that yes, you don't have any musical life.

Op zaterdag 9 september 2023 om 15:17:06 UTC+2 schreef mswd...@gmail.com:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 6:52:59 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 12:42:25 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > >
> > > But are these really worth listening and acquiring?
> > Of course not.
> > What do you think is going to happen; you're suddenly going to think Tchaikovsky is a totally different composer than you thought he was?
> > This is called the Connoisseur Fallacy.
> > You mention a recording or performance that is not totally mainstream, you claim to hear things never heard before and talk as if it's a revelation.
>
> The actual answer is "who knows"? The role of the critic these days is not as important as it once was. Why waste your energies developing a grand theory of where a writer's taste intersects with sentiment (even if it does, even if patterns can be seen, even if it is verifiably real- is that worth your energies?) Get a free spotify account, suffer through some ads, and listen to them yourself. You'll be no poorer for it.
>
> I'm taking my own medicine on Spotify right now. I don't own a single Abravanel recording. Sampled R&J and Winter Dreams (pedantic and literal to my ears). Twelve minutes in, Manfred has quite good line- it's not a piece I know well or have liked much in the past. This one sounds fine so far, if not th ebest Tchaikovsky. YMMV.

Only rarely I listen online, mostly sampling on prestomusic.com.
In this case I listened to fragments of 2 symphonies and Manfred, and didn't hear anything "special", except for beginning of the last movement of Manfred, but nothing that could make this recording unique or incomparable or better than anyone else.
I suppose we can expect more D.H. videos like this about the Vox rereleases.. The 2 Gershwin disks with Slatkin are in the same category (Slatkin seems te be a personal friend of D.H.).

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 3:44:05 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> Op zaterdag 9 september 2023 om 15:17:06 UTC+2 schreef mswd...gmail.com:
> > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 6:52:59 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 12:42:25 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > > >
> > > > But are these really worth listening and acquiring?
> > > Of course not.
> > > What do you think is going to happen; you're suddenly going to think Tchaikovsky is a totally different composer than you thought he was?
> > > This is called the Connoisseur Fallacy.
> > > You mention a recording or performance that is not totally mainstream, you claim to hear things never heard before and talk as if it's a revelation.
> >
> > The actual answer is "who knows"? The role of the critic these days is not as important as it once was. Why waste your energies developing a grand theory of where a writer's taste intersects with sentiment (even if it does, even if patterns can be seen, even if it is verifiably real- is that worth your energies?) Get a free spotify account, suffer through some ads, and listen to them yourself. You'll be no poorer for it.
> >
> > I'm taking my own medicine on Spotify right now. I don't own a single Abravanel recording. Sampled R&J and Winter Dreams (pedantic and literal to my ears). Twelve minutes in, Manfred has quite good line- it's not a piece I know well or have liked much in the past. This one sounds fine so far, if not th ebest Tchaikovsky. YMMV.
> Only rarely I listen online, mostly sampling on prestomusic.com.
> In this case I listened to fragments of 2 symphonies and Manfred, and didn't hear anything "special", except for beginning of the last movement of Manfred, but nothing that could make this recording unique or incomparable or better than anyone else.
> I suppose we can expect more D.H. videos like this about the Vox rereleases. The 2 Gershwin disks with Slatkin are in the same category (Slatkin seems te be a personal friend of D.H.).

Since practically everything you want to hear these days is on YouTube, why not listen and see what you think? ... For example ...

Abravanel conducts Tchaikovsky 1st Symphony complete ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wizk4Bkgco

Ditto the 2nd Symphony ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSq31gc15go

Dittto the 4th Symphony ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcfsdj0YRcQ

The 5th is uploaded in its four separate movements, so just do the usual search.

Ditto the 6th Symphony complete ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS--bqDL160
Highlights from "Swan Lake" are on there plus the "1812 Overture" should anyone wish to investigate further, along with numerous uploads of D Hurtwiz raving about every Abravanel / Tchaikovsky recording ever issued.

Best of luck!

Op zaterdag 9 september 2023 om 17:51:06 UTC+2 schreef Kerrison:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 3:44:05 PM UTC+1, Gerard wrote:
> > Op zaterdag 9 september 2023 om 15:17:06 UTC+2 schreef mswd...gmail.com:
> > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 6:52:59 AM UTC-5, Herman wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 12:42:25 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > But are these really worth listening and acquiring?
> > > > Of course not.
> > > > What do you think is going to happen; you're suddenly going to think Tchaikovsky is a totally different composer than you thought he was?
> > > > This is called the Connoisseur Fallacy.
> > > > You mention a recording or performance that is not totally mainstream, you claim to hear things never heard before and talk as if it's a revelation.
> > >
> > > The actual answer is "who knows"? The role of the critic these days is not as important as it once was. Why waste your energies developing a grand theory of where a writer's taste intersects with sentiment (even if it does, even if patterns can be seen, even if it is verifiably real- is that worth your energies?) Get a free spotify account, suffer through some ads, and listen to them yourself. You'll be no poorer for it.
> > >
> > > I'm taking my own medicine on Spotify right now. I don't own a single Abravanel recording. Sampled R&J and Winter Dreams (pedantic and literal to my ears). Twelve minutes in, Manfred has quite good line- it's not a piece I know well or have liked much in the past. This one sounds fine so far, if not th ebest Tchaikovsky. YMMV.
> > Only rarely I listen online, mostly sampling on prestomusic.com.
> > In this case I listened to fragments of 2 symphonies and Manfred, and didn't hear anything "special", except for beginning of the last movement of Manfred, but nothing that could make this recording unique or incomparable or better than anyone else.
> > I suppose we can expect more D.H. videos like this about the Vox rereleases. The 2 Gershwin disks with Slatkin are in the same category (Slatkin seems te be a personal friend of D.H.).
> Since practically everything you want to hear these days is on YouTube, why not listen and see what you think? ... For example ...
>
> Abravanel conducts Tchaikovsky 1st Symphony complete ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wizk4Bkgco
>
> Ditto the 2nd Symphony ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSq31gc15go
>
> Dittto the 4th Symphony ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcfsdj0YRcQ
>
> The 5th is uploaded in its four separate movements, so just do the usual search.
>
> Ditto the 6th Symphony complete ...
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS--bqDL160
>
> Highlights from "Swan Lake" are on there plus the "1812 Overture" should anyone wish to investigate further, along with numerous uploads of D Hurtwiz raving about every Abravanel / Tchaikovsky recording ever issued.
>
> Best of luck!

Thanks!
However, I only rarely listen online, I do mostly sampling. I don't like very much watching complete symphonies on a computer screen. (My computer also is not connected to my stereo equipment.)
I was just curious about other opinions about Abravanel's Tchaikovsky.
My own impression so far: OK, good as many others, nothing special.
So I don't understand the raving (like many of his ravings).

OTOH I also don't understand why D.H. writes in a review on his webiste "Paavo Järvi Thrills in Tchaik 5" (title of the review) and "the performance of the Fifth Symphony is spectacular", but does not find this recording worth ONE word in his video "The Best and Worst Tchaikovsky Fifth Symphonies" a few days later.

On 9/9/23 7:52 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 12:42:25 PM UTC+2, Gerard wrote:
>>
>> But are these really worth listening and acquiring?
>
> Of course not.
> What do you think is going to happen; you're suddenly going to think Tchaikovsky is a totally different composer than you thought he was?
> This is called the Connoisseur Fallacy.
> You mention a recording or performance that is not totally mainstream, you claim to hgear things never heard before and talk as if it's a revelation.

Of course, there are these irritating, smug know-it-alls who think they
are Connoisseurs: "You can take your Furtwanglers - you haven't really
heard the Bruckner 8th until you've savored the unique insights of
Maestro Amleto Toscali and the All-Union Mongolian Orchestra - finally
tracked down a copy in a thrift shop in Addis-Ababa..."

But enough about me.

Schnabel said it best - many works are better than they can be performed
- and I believe a quest for a superior performance is well worthwhile.

And you are right - there are a great many very fine performances of
mainstream works readily available, and there is only a small chance
that we can find something better.

But just today Mandryka brought up Valery Afanassiev - I greatly enjoyed
his Schubert B-flat major - a performance unlike any other:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1oNW4SnGWQ

And for Tchaikovsky, Nikolai Golovanov's Pathétique is unique:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwOI5NOltA8

I'm hoping that you are not proposing that RMCR be dissolved - maybe
like the fabled "Society for Placing Things on Top of Other Things" it
is just very silly??

(Oh - about Maestro Abravanel - I have many of his recordings - like
many conductors he was always competent and sometimes inspired. I enjoy
his Tchaikovsky ballet suites - and his Goldmark Rustic Wedding is great
- not that there is much competition)

On 2023-09-09 4:42 a.m., Gerard wrote:
> According to a series of videos by David H. he must be the one. Although he admits that the orchestra is so-so, the conductor is not a major conductor, and the performances are mainly just good but not the best, he praises the VOX recordings newly rereleased by Naxos of several Tchaikovsky recordings to heaven. Most recently Abravanel's recording of the Manfred Symphony seems to be the best evvvver.
> Dave seems to like such conductors a lot, also Slatkin and Neeme Järvi.
> But are these really worth listening and acquiring?

It has always struck me that his records belong on the shelf next to
the Readers' Digest condensed books.