novaBBS - alt.history.what-if - Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?

Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?

<49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6092&group=alt.history.what-if#6092

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

X-Received: by 2002:a37:7246:: with SMTP id n67mr23447460qkc.71.1620681697373;
Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:37 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:2e47:: with SMTP id b7mr35169686ybn.397.1620681697158;
Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:37 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!border2.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!feeder1.cambriumusenet.nl!feed.tweak.nl!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.228.73.154; posting-account=ZUrk_QoAAABZ9y2QYeTVPJa9mdyxu9a6
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.228.73.154
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually
*realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that
the US would subsequently declare war against them?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
Injection-Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 21:21:37 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 2

by: WolfBear - Mon, 10 May 2021 21:21 UTC

Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?

<1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6093&group=alt.history.what-if#6093

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.uzoreto.com!fdcspool5.netnews.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx27.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
Message-ID: <1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com>
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 17
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 20:32:43 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 1762

by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 11 May 2021 03:32 UTC

On Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>USW = unrestricted submarine warfare.
>
>FWIW, I'm also talking about alternate TLs here--so, for instance, an alt-WWI where the Franco-Russians fight against the Anglo-Germans.

Realistically only Britain - France didn't have nearly enough subs.

And the UK and USA had not been at war since 1815 unless you include
the 1859 "Pig War" and I would argue that both Buchanan and Lincoln
had far more on their plates than simply trading post pigs. (In fact I
would argue the death of John Brown around the same time was far more
important than a minor kerfuffle in the San Juan Islands between
mainland North America and Vancouver Island.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_War_(1859)

<4y08xtekfpal.cot1zez9bc26.dlg@40tude.net>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6094&group=alt.history.what-if#6094

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:27:55 +1000
Organization: Truth with honesty
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4y08xtekfpal.cot1zez9bc26.dlg@40tude.net>
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com> <1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="654119f019140f0c2192fa7c7f8b23f2";
logging-data="17895"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+3N/05Boz0JFqGcOKCq89rvFcRNgolsj8="
User-Agent: 40tude_Dialog/2.0.15.1
Cancel-Lock: sha1:KsASVjyIbA/kTq/wRFanU1xi6fs=

by: SolomonW - Tue, 11 May 2021 05:27 UTC

On Mon, 10 May 2021 20:32:43 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>USW = unrestricted submarine warfare.
>>
>>FWIW, I'm also talking about alternate TLs here--so, for instance, an alt-WWI where the Franco-Russians fight against the Anglo-Germans.
>
> Realistically only Britain - France didn't have nearly enough subs.

France was a pioneer in submarine technology and had a few. Moreover, its
naval bases were well-positioned for such a conflict.

ttps://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/france/submarines

In comparison,
Germany had few submarines before ww1 and was starting up this technology.

<bc6b2e91-dfa3-4557-a89e-6530a4df597cn@googlegroups.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6095&group=alt.history.what-if#6095

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

X-Received: by 2002:a37:7906:: with SMTP id u6mr27305847qkc.225.1620729760166;
Tue, 11 May 2021 03:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:8543:: with SMTP id f3mr38352399ybn.80.1620729760014;
Tue, 11 May 2021 03:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 03:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=98.209.100.189; posting-account=i-GfvwoAAACgKovgfW2If8T__qEDN8Dj
NNTP-Posting-Host: 98.209.100.189
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com> <1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <bc6b2e91-dfa3-4557-a89e-6530a4df597cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever
actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a
point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
From: edstasia...@gmail.com (edstas...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 10:42:40 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

by: edstas...@gmail.com - Tue, 11 May 2021 10:42 UTC

> The Horny Goat
> > WolfBear
> >
> > USW = unrestricted submarine warfare.
>
> Realistically only Britain - France didn't have nearly enough subs.

The Japanese could have done it prior to WWII, had they realized the
war in the Pacific would be about logistics and not an epic showdown
between battleships. Which the U.S. _did_ realize and ended up choking
the life out’a Japan with subs.

<91f6acaa-e2af-4ed8-ad45-d3bd07f1c92an@googlegroups.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6096&group=alt.history.what-if#6096

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:240c:: with SMTP id d12mr8394685qkn.190.1620734668810;
Tue, 11 May 2021 05:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:880f:: with SMTP id c15mr38316823ybl.247.1620734668545;
Tue, 11 May 2021 05:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!feeder1.cambriumusenet.nl!feed.tweak.nl!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 05:04:28 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <bc6b2e91-dfa3-4557-a89e-6530a4df597cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=50.222.115.110; posting-account=09VrTAoAAAB_TCOu-ilK7mcryQpoQfic
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.222.115.110
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com>
<1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com> <bc6b2e91-dfa3-4557-a89e-6530a4df597cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <91f6acaa-e2af-4ed8-ad45-d3bd07f1c92an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever
actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a
point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
From: damark...@gmail.com (dama...@gmail.com)
Injection-Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 12:04:28 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

by: dama...@gmail.com - Tue, 11 May 2021 12:04 UTC

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 6:42:40 AM UTC-4, edstas...@gmail.com wrote:
> > The Horny Goat
> > > WolfBear
> > >
> > > USW = unrestricted submarine warfare.
> >
> > Realistically only Britain - France didn't have nearly enough subs.
> The Japanese could have done it prior to WWII, had they realized the
> war in the Pacific would be about logistics and not an epic showdown
> between battleships. Which the U.S. _did_ realize and ended up choking
> the life out’a Japan with subs.
No, Japanese subs of WWI were coastal types without the range needed to interdict US shipping. I suppose they could have intercepted shipping approaching China but even then, the Japanese Navy did not see subs as anti-merchant shipping. Rather they already had the idea to use subs to pick of the US Navy heavies.

<6j6l9g1rbja50v7kc8bo2iu1dsau4ftedg@4ax.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6097&group=alt.history.what-if#6097

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!news.dns-netz.com!news.freedyn.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed9.news.xs4all.nl!feeder5.feed.usenet.farm!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx45.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
Message-ID: <6j6l9g1rbja50v7kc8bo2iu1dsau4ftedg@4ax.com>
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com> <1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com> <4y08xtekfpal.cot1zez9bc26.dlg@40tude.net>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 33
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 07:55:32 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 2265

by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 11 May 2021 14:55 UTC

On Tue, 11 May 2021 15:27:55 +1000, SolomonW <SolomonW@citi.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 10 May 2021 20:32:43 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>USW = unrestricted submarine warfare.
>>>
>>>FWIW, I'm also talking about alternate TLs here--so, for instance, an alt-WWI where the Franco-Russians fight against the Anglo-Germans.
>>
>> Realistically only Britain - France didn't have nearly enough subs.
>
>France was a pioneer in submarine technology and had a few. Moreover, its
>naval bases were well-positioned for such a conflict.
>
>
>ttps://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/france/submarines
>
>
>In comparison,
>Germany had few submarines before ww1 and was starting up this technology.
>
>
>
I'm aware of all that - but unrestricted submarine warfare against the
USA in the 50 years following the Civil War (which I presume is the
era you're discussing) is in my opinion too much of a stretch given
French forces - there's simply too much coast to cover.

Even if you handwave French bases in Mexico (even Maximillian wouldn't
be that daft!) the logistics simply don't work.

<f331c61d-3782-4218-a766-aae8287fd279n@googlegroups.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6098&group=alt.history.what-if#6098

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1121:: with SMTP id p1mr29414661qkk.299.1620771784820;
Tue, 11 May 2021 15:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:6ec4:: with SMTP id j187mr43600065ybc.313.1620771784724;
Tue, 11 May 2021 15:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:23:04 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <6j6l9g1rbja50v7kc8bo2iu1dsau4ftedg@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.228.73.154; posting-account=ZUrk_QoAAABZ9y2QYeTVPJa9mdyxu9a6
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.228.73.154
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com>
<1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com> <4y08xtekfpal.cot1zez9bc26.dlg@40tude.net>
<6j6l9g1rbja50v7kc8bo2iu1dsau4ftedg@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <f331c61d-3782-4218-a766-aae8287fd279n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever
actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a
point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
Injection-Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 22:23:04 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

by: WolfBear - Tue, 11 May 2021 22:23 UTC

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 7:55:36 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 11 May 2021 15:27:55 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 10 May 2021 20:32:43 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 10 May 2021 14:21:36 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>USW = unrestricted submarine warfare.
> >>>
> >>>FWIW, I'm also talking about alternate TLs here--so, for instance, an alt-WWI where the Franco-Russians fight against the Anglo-Germans.
> >>
> >> Realistically only Britain - France didn't have nearly enough subs.
> >
> >France was a pioneer in submarine technology and had a few. Moreover, its
> >naval bases were well-positioned for such a conflict.
> >
> >
> >ttps://www.naval-encyclopedia.com/ww1/france/submarines
> >
> >
> >In comparison,
> >Germany had few submarines before ww1 and was starting up this technology.
> >
> >
> >
> I'm aware of all that - but unrestricted submarine warfare against the
> USA in the 50 years following the Civil War (which I presume is the
> era you're discussing) is in my opinion too much of a stretch given
> French forces - there's simply too much coast to cover.
>
> Even if you handwave French bases in Mexico (even Maximillian wouldn't
> be that daft!) the logistics simply don't work.

The French USW would be against Britain and Germany, not against the US. But this would drag the US into a general European war just like it did with German USW in real life.

<offm9gddsdimi6eljrie2p33cv51ai0fmf@4ax.com>

copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6099&group=alt.history.what-if#6099

copy link Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if

Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fdcspool3.netnews.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed8.news.xs4all.nl!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx46.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?
Message-ID: <offm9gddsdimi6eljrie2p33cv51ai0fmf@4ax.com>
References: <49221493-86e7-4659-b5b4-9d79ba3d65e6n@googlegroups.com> <1fuj9g92uuset4m6iacg509qjdjh0afugr@4ax.com> <4y08xtekfpal.cot1zez9bc26.dlg@40tude.net> <6j6l9g1rbja50v7kc8bo2iu1dsau4ftedg@4ax.com> <f331c61d-3782-4218-a766-aae8287fd279n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 25
X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com
Organization: Easynews - www.easynews.com
X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 19:33:36 -0700
X-Received-Bytes: 2385

by: The Horny Goat - Wed, 12 May 2021 02:33 UTC

On Tue, 11 May 2021 15:23:04 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 7:55:36 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Tue, 11 May 2021 15:27:55 +1000, SolomonW <Solo...@citi.com>
>> wrote:
>> >In comparison,
>> >Germany had few submarines before ww1 and was starting up this technology.
>> >
>> I'm aware of all that - but unrestricted submarine warfare against the
>> USA in the 50 years following the Civil War (which I presume is the
>> era you're discussing) is in my opinion too much of a stretch given
>> French forces - there's simply too much coast to cover.
>>
>> Even if you handwave French bases in Mexico (even Maximillian wouldn't
>> be that daft!) the logistics simply don't work.
>
>The French USW would be against Britain and Germany, not against the US. But this would drag the US into a general European war just like it did with German USW in real life.

And would have the same long term impact as 1814-15 - and I >don't<
mean the battle of New Orleans either!

Overall I'd say the balance of power pretty much any time after 1865
is far more against France than Germany in 1914. And that this is
particularly true at sea.

There is no sin but ignorance. -- Christopher Marlowe

arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually realistically capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?

Subject	Author
Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually	WolfBear
Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *reali	The Horny Goat
Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *reali	SolomonW
Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *reali	The Horny Goat
Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever	WolfBear
*Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually reali**	The Horny Goat
Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever	edstas...@gmail.com
Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever	dama...@gmail.com

There is no sin but ignorance. -- Christopher Marlowe

arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually *realistically* capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?

arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Which Great Powers other than Germany do you think were ever actually realistically capable of launching USW against the US to such a point that the US would subsequently declare war against them?