While listening to the internet radio station Positively Baroque, I heard Buxtehude's Ciconia in e minor. I was struck with how similar it sounds to sections of Glass's Koyaanisqatsi sound track.

Aside from obvious theft as in "Stranger in Paradise" and variations on a theme are there any serious works which seem influenced by an earlier work?

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:00:13 PM UTC+8, sci.space wrote:
> While listening to the internet radio station Positively Baroque, I heard Buxtehude's Ciconia in e minor. I was struck with how similar it sounds to sections of Glass's Koyaanisqatsi sound track.
>
> Aside from obvious theft as in "Stranger in Paradise" and variations on a theme are there any serious works which seem influenced by an earlier work?

my understanding is that the valorization of some kind of pure originality (as if such a thing were possible) in western classical composition is a relatively recent phenomenon - bach and mozart and all the rest relentlessly imitated (plagiarized?) their predecessors, their contemporaries, and their own earlier works - and without any secrecy or shame, it was totally unremarkable. this situation started to change with beethoven's generation.

On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 9:49:37 AM UTC+2, cheregi wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:00:13 PM UTC+8, sci.space wrote:
> > While listening to the internet radio station Positively Baroque, I heard Buxtehude's Ciconia in e minor. I was struck with how similar it sounds to sections of Glass's Koyaanisqatsi sound track.
> >
> > Aside from obvious theft as in "Stranger in Paradise" and variations on a theme are there any serious works which seem influenced by an earlier work?
> my understanding is that the valorization of some kind of pure originality (as if such a thing were possible) in western classical composition is a relatively recent phenomenon - bach and mozart and all the rest relentlessly imitated (plagiarized?) their predecessors, their contemporaries, and their own earlier works - and without any secrecy or shame, it was totally unremarkable. this situation started to change with beethoven's generation.

Not sure if this was the case with Mozart, who was pushing the new-new-new envelope all the time.
However, part of the problem is we often do not know everything about the musical environment our canonical composers worked in. For instance, Schumann much admired Jan Kalliwoda, whom no one listens to anymore. And Kalliwoda we know, but there are waaayy more composers we don't know anything about, and who may or may not have contributed to the ideas and sounds of the canonical composers without us knowing so.

On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 7:22:06 PM UTC+8, Herman wrote:
> On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 9:49:37 AM UTC+2, cheregi wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:00:13 PM UTC+8, sci.space wrote:
> > > While listening to the internet radio station Positively Baroque, I heard Buxtehude's Ciconia in e minor. I was struck with how similar it sounds to sections of Glass's Koyaanisqatsi sound track.
> > >
> > > Aside from obvious theft as in "Stranger in Paradise" and variations on a theme are there any serious works which seem influenced by an earlier work?
> > my understanding is that the valorization of some kind of pure originality (as if such a thing were possible) in western classical composition is a relatively recent phenomenon - bach and mozart and all the rest relentlessly imitated (plagiarized?) their predecessors, their contemporaries, and their own earlier works - and without any secrecy or shame, it was totally unremarkable. this situation started to change with beethoven's generation.
> Not sure if this was the case with Mozart, who was pushing the new-new-new envelope all the time.
> However, part of the problem is we often do not know everything about the musical environment our canonical composers worked in. For instance, Schumann much admired Jan Kalliwoda, whom no one listens to anymore. And Kalliwoda we know, but there are waaayy more composers we don't know anything about, and who may or may not have contributed to the ideas and sounds of the canonical composers without us knowing so.

Interesting, I'd never heard of this Kalliwoda guy and I think you raise a good point more broadly also.

On 9/23/23 7:07 AM, cheregi wrote:
> On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 7:22:06 PM UTC+8, Herman wrote:
>> On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 9:49:37 AM UTC+2, cheregi wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:00:13 PM UTC+8, sci.space
>>> wrote:
>>>> While listening to the internet radio station Positively
>>>> Baroque, I heard Buxtehude's Ciconia in e minor. I was struck
>>>> with how similar it sounds to sections of Glass's Koyaanisqatsi
>>>> sound track.
>>>>
>>>> Aside from obvious theft as in "Stranger in Paradise" and
>>>> variations on a theme are there any serious works which seem
>>>> influenced by an earlier work?

Brahm's first symphony.

>>> my understanding is that the valorization of some kind of pure
>>> originality (as if such a thing were possible) in western
>>> classical composition is a relatively recent phenomenon - bach
>>> and mozart and all the rest relentlessly imitated (plagiarized?)
>>> their predecessors, their contemporaries, and their own earlier
>>> works - and without any secrecy or shame, it was totally
>>> unremarkable. this situation started to change with beethoven's
>>> generation.
>> Not sure if this was the case with Mozart, who was pushing the
>> new-new-new envelope all the time. However, part of the problem is
>> we often do not know everything about the musical environment our
>> canonical composers worked in. For instance, Schumann much admired
>> Jan Kalliwoda, whom no one listens to anymore. And Kalliwoda we
>> know, but there are waaayy more composers we don't know anything
>> about, and who may or may not have contributed to the ideas and
>> sounds of the canonical composers without us knowing so.
>
> Interesting, I'd never heard of this Kalliwoda guy and I think you
> raise a good point more broadly also.

Looks like a Hurwitz find based on Christoph Spering-led symphony
recordings.

The adult Mozart, of course, took inspiration from Handel; Schubert
from Mozart; Bruckner from Schubert, etc.

On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 3:53:56 PM UTC+2, mINE109 wrote:
>

> >
> > Interesting, I'd never heard of this Kalliwoda guy and I think you
> > raise a good point more broadly also.
> Looks like a Hurwitz find based on Christoph Spering-led symphony
> recordings.
>
Really?
Anyone who plays the violin has had some Kalliwoda pieces on his or her stand early on.
And I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for some other instruments. Like flute or recorder.
Music exists outside 'recordings'.

On 9/23/23 11:05 AM, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 3:53:56 PM UTC+2, mINE109 wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> Interesting, I'd never heard of this Kalliwoda guy and I think you
>>> raise a good point more broadly also.
>> Looks like a Hurwitz find based on Christoph Spering-led symphony
>> recordings.
>>
> Really?
> Anyone who plays the violin has had some Kalliwoda pieces on his or her stand early on.

Anyone who doesn't won't have that experience.

> And I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for some other instruments. Like flute or recorder.
> Music exists outside 'recordings'.

Although the name of this group is "rec.music.classical.recordings," I
defer to those with knowledge of the string teaching repertoire. I see
his Nocturnes are represented in Suzuki Level 8 for viola.

IMSLP shows an impressive 233 pages of which I've encountered none to my
memory.

Cool, songs for soprano, clarinet and piano to keep the shepherd on the
rock company.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 2:00:13 PM UTC+1, sci.space wrote:
> While listening to the internet radio station Positively Baroque, I heard Buxtehude's Ciconia in e minor. I was struck with how similar it sounds to sections of Glass's Koyaanisqatsi sound track.
>
> Aside from obvious theft as in "Stranger in Paradise" and variations on a theme are there any serious works which seem influenced by an earlier work?

Is Louis Andriessen’s “The nine symphonies of Beethoven for orchestra and ice cream bell” a serious work?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBRJTnFOHA&pp=ygUfSWNlIGNyZWFtIGJlZXRob3ZlbiBzeW1waG9uaWVzIA%3D%3D

On 9/23/2023 12:05 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 3:53:56 PM UTC+2, mINE109 wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> Interesting, I'd never heard of this Kalliwoda guy and I think you
>>> raise a good point more broadly also.
>> Looks like a Hurwitz find based on Christoph Spering-led symphony
>> recordings.
>>
> Really?
> Anyone who plays the violin has had some Kalliwoda pieces on his or her stand early on.
> And I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for some other instruments. Like flute or recorder.
> Music exists outside 'recordings'.

Did you consider that "Hurwitz find" did mean that Killiwoda was discovered by Hurwitz? That it referred to recordings?

On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 4:55:49 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
> On 9/23/2023 12:05 PM, Herman wrote:
>
> Did you consider that "Hurwitz find" did mean that Killiwoda was discovered by Hurwitz? That it referred to recordings?

It's Kalliwoda, with an A.

On 9/24/2023 12:11 PM, Herman wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 4:55:49 PM UTC+2, Frank Berger wrote:
>> On 9/23/2023 12:05 PM, Herman wrote:
>>
>> Did you consider that "Hurwitz find" did mean that Killiwoda was discovered by Hurwitz? That it referred to recordings?
>
> It's Kalliwoda, with an A.

Did you consider that "Hurwitz find" did not mean that Kalliwoda was discovered by Hurwitz? That it referred to recordings?