I just rewatched the Between 2 Wars episode on Austrian fascism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqYTTOHc7yM .

In 1934 in real life, Austrian Nazis, trained and funded by Germany, assassinated Dollfuss and began a (mostly ineffective) national uprising. Hitler disavowed involvement and left the plotters to be crushed by Austrian forces.

What if Hitler doesn't blink? I suspect that better coordination among Nazi forces in Austria would be necessary for Hitler to follow through. If Austrian Nazis capture a town or two, declare themselves the government, and request German aid, let's suppose that Hitler sends in troops.

I think there is going to be domestic opposition. The Austrian military had expelled some know Nazis and given their actions during the attempted coup, seem poised to support the government.

Mussolini was on record as promising to support Austria in the context of German aggression. So does that also bring in the other member state of the Rome Protocols, Hungary, in a Catholic coalition opposing Protestant Nazi Germany?

What happens in a war between Nazi Germany and Austrian Nazis on one side and the rest of the Austrian state, plus Italy and Hungary on the other?

I don't think German force structure this early in rearmament would be able to achieve any sort of blitzkrieg in the Austrian terrain. Similarly, I suspect Austrian and Hungarian forces would be infantry heavy and slow moving. So what happens?

Do other countries join in? Does the German military remove Hitler if German forces bog down? Does the League of Nations get involved?

wes

wes

On Tuesday, 18 May 2021 at 02:20:38 UTC+1, Wes Roehl wrote:
> I just rewatched the Between 2 Wars episode on Austrian fascism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqYTTOHc7yM .
>
> In 1934 in real life, Austrian Nazis, trained and funded by Germany, assassinated Dollfuss and began a (mostly ineffective) national uprising. Hitler disavowed involvement and left the plotters to be crushed by Austrian forces.
>
> What if Hitler doesn't blink? I suspect that better coordination among Nazi forces in Austria would be necessary for Hitler to follow through. If Austrian Nazis capture a town or two, declare themselves the government, and request German aid, let's suppose that Hitler sends in troops.
>
> I think there is going to be domestic opposition. The Austrian military had expelled some know Nazis and given their actions during the attempted coup, seem poised to support the government.
>
> Mussolini was on record as promising to support Austria in the context of German aggression. So does that also bring in the other member state of the Rome Protocols, Hungary, in a Catholic coalition opposing Protestant Nazi Germany?
>
> What happens in a war between Nazi Germany and Austrian Nazis on one side and the rest of the Austrian state, plus Italy and Hungary on the other?
>
> I don't think German force structure this early in rearmament would be able to achieve any sort of blitzkrieg in the Austrian terrain. Similarly, I suspect Austrian and Hungarian forces would be infantry heavy and slow moving. So what happens?
>
> Do other countries join in? Does the German military remove Hitler if German forces bog down? Does the League of Nations get involved?
>
Mussolini did more than just promise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Putsch#Events " Mussolini ... his decision to move troops to the Austrian border and tell Hitler that he was not to invade Austria."
https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations/AAI8104816/
"Mussolini sent four Italian divisions to the Brenner Pass as a direct warning to Hitler that Italy would not tolerate a German absorption of Austria."

Have a read at https://www.garethjones.org/german_articles/italy_big_guns.htm - THE WESTERN MAIL & SOUTH WALES NEWS, August 16th 1934
'A dark, excitable Italian - an important Fascist of the district ... he exclaimed: “Germany! The Germans are savages. Hitler is a barbarian. Mussolini will never forgive him, because he has broken all his promises. The murder of Dollfuss has ended for ever and ever my friendship, we had for the Germans.” I described to him the Italian troops I had seen on the frontier. His face gleamed with pride. “They will march, too,” he declared, “the very moment Austria becomes Nazi and joins with Germany. We have 40,000 soldiers ready.'

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 10:58:27 AM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> On Tuesday, 18 May 2021 at 02:20:38 UTC+1, Wes Roehl wrote:
> > I just rewatched the Between 2 Wars episode on Austrian fascism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqYTTOHc7yM .
> >
> > In 1934 in real life, Austrian Nazis, trained and funded by Germany, assassinated Dollfuss and began a (mostly ineffective) national uprising. Hitler disavowed involvement and left the plotters to be crushed by Austrian forces.
> >
> > What if Hitler doesn't blink? I suspect that better coordination among Nazi forces in Austria would be necessary for Hitler to follow through. If Austrian Nazis capture a town or two, declare themselves the government, and request German aid, let's suppose that Hitler sends in troops.
> >
> > I think there is going to be domestic opposition. The Austrian military had expelled some know Nazis and given their actions during the attempted coup, seem poised to support the government.
> >
> > Mussolini was on record as promising to support Austria in the context of German aggression. So does that also bring in the other member state of the Rome Protocols, Hungary, in a Catholic coalition opposing Protestant Nazi Germany?
> >
> > What happens in a war between Nazi Germany and Austrian Nazis on one side and the rest of the Austrian state, plus Italy and Hungary on the other?
> >
> > I don't think German force structure this early in rearmament would be able to achieve any sort of blitzkrieg in the Austrian terrain. Similarly, I suspect Austrian and Hungarian forces would be infantry heavy and slow moving. So what happens?
> >
> > Do other countries join in? Does the German military remove Hitler if German forces bog down? Does the League of Nations get involved?
> >
> Mussolini did more than just promise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_Putsch#Events " Mussolini ... his decision to move troops to the Austrian border and tell Hitler that he was not to invade Austria."
> https://epublications.marquette.edu/dissertations/AAI8104816/
> "Mussolini sent four Italian divisions to the Brenner Pass as a direct warning to Hitler that Italy would not tolerate a German absorption of Austria."
>
> Have a read at https://www.garethjones.org/german_articles/italy_big_guns..htm - THE WESTERN MAIL & SOUTH WALES NEWS, August 16th 1934
> 'A dark, excitable Italian - an important Fascist of the district ... he exclaimed: “Germany! The Germans are savages. Hitler is a barbarian.. Mussolini will never forgive him, because he has broken all his promises. The murder of Dollfuss has ended for ever and ever my friendship, we had for the Germans.” I described to him the Italian troops I had seen on the frontier. His face gleamed with pride. “They will march, too,” he declared, “the very moment Austria becomes Nazi and joins with Germany. We have 40,000 soldiers ready.'

Mussolini apparently had more guts than the Anglo-French had before 1939.

On Tue, 18 May 2021 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> Have a read at https://www.garethjones.org/german_articles/italy_big_guns.htm - THE WESTERN MAIL & SOUTH WALES NEWS, August 16th 1934
>> 'A dark, excitable Italian - an important Fascist of the district ... he exclaimed: “Germany! The Germans are savages. Hitler is a barbarian. Mussolini will never forgive him, because he has broken all his promises. The murder of Dollfuss has ended for ever and ever my friendship, we had for the Germans.” I described to him the Italian troops I had seen on the frontier. His face gleamed with pride. “They will march, too,” he declared, “the very moment Austria becomes Nazi and joins with Germany. We have 40,000 soldiers ready.'
>
>Mussolini apparently had more guts than the Anglo-French had before 1939.

I don't know about that necessarily but no question he had more troops
in Spain 1936-39 than Hitler. By a country mile.

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:56:24 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 18 May 2021 12:22:17 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Have a read at https://www.garethjones.org/german_articles/italy_big_guns.htm - THE WESTERN MAIL & SOUTH WALES NEWS, August 16th 1934
> >> 'A dark, excitable Italian - an important Fascist of the district ... he exclaimed: “Germany! The Germans are savages. Hitler is a barbarian. Mussolini will never forgive him, because he has broken all his promises. The murder of Dollfuss has ended for ever and ever my friendship, we had for the Germans.” I described to him the Italian troops I had seen on the frontier. His face gleamed with pride. “They will march, too,” he declared, “the very moment Austria becomes Nazi and joins with Germany. We have 40,000 soldiers ready.'
> >
> >Mussolini apparently had more guts than the Anglo-French had before 1939..
> I don't know about that necessarily but no question he had more troops
> in Spain 1936-39 than Hitler. By a country mile.

He and Hitler were on the same side in Spain, no?

On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:17:05 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> >Mussolini apparently had more guts than the Anglo-French had before 1939=
>.
>> I don't know about that necessarily but no question he had more troops=20
>> in Spain 1936-39 than Hitler. By a country mile.
>
>He and Hitler were on the same side in Spain, no?

Of course they were. What I am saying is that Mussolini sent many more
troops to Spain than Hitler did. (I am not of course discussing the
International Brigades who definitely included both Germans and
Italians but on the other side) There were also more Italian
casualties in Spain than German.

Of course beyond that Italy and Britain nearly went to war in Spain
when Italian ships attacked Royal Navy ships parked outside the
Spanish territorial limits.

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> on Fri, 28 May 2021 20:06:48 -0700
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:17:05 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>> >Mussolini apparently had more guts than the Anglo-French had before 1939=
>>.
>>> I don't know about that necessarily but no question he had more troops=20
>>> in Spain 1936-39 than Hitler. By a country mile.
>>
>>He and Hitler were on the same side in Spain, no?
>
>Of course they were. What I am saying is that Mussolini sent many more
>troops to Spain than Hitler did. (I am not of course discussing the
>International Brigades who definitely included both Germans and
>Italians but on the other side) There were also more Italian
>casualties in Spain than German.

When I lived in Spain, I was pointed at an area near Guadalajara,
where during said "Events' occurred the "Italian Civil War". It is
where a Republican unit composed largely of Italian Left Socialists
met up with a contingent of the Nationalist forces composed of a
detachment of the Italian Army. Supposedly was where some of the
fiercest fighting of the war went on.

>Of course beyond that Italy and Britain nearly went to war in Spain
>when Italian ships attacked Royal Navy ships parked outside the
>Spanish territorial limits.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

On Fri, 28 May 2021 22:15:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

> When I lived in Spain, I was pointed at an area near Guadalajara,
>where during said "Events' occurred the "Italian Civil War". It is
>where a Republican unit composed largely of Italian Left Socialists
>met up with a contingent of the Nationalist forces composed of a
>detachment of the Italian Army. Supposedly was where some of the
>fiercest fighting of the war went on.

I confess I am in the habit of telling "progressives" who use the term
"fascism" to refer generically to "people of a conservative bent I
disagree with" to read Homage to Catalonia to read about REAL
Fascists. I'm pretty sure Orwell mentions the battle you refer to.

(In Turtledove's The War that Came Early" series he has lots of
Spanish Civil War stories which he insisted were mostly true though
retold to fit his alt-hist scenario (which is basically that WW2
started in 1938 after Henlein - the Sudeten German Nazi leader was
assassinated just before the end of the Munich conference and Hitler's
response was to declare war) But Turtledove did say many of his
Spanish Civil War vignettes in the series were lifted from actual
events, especially stories about members of the International
Brigades.

On Saturday, May 29, 2021 at 5:19:22 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Fri, 28 May 2021 22:15:33 -0700, pyotr filipivich
> <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > When I lived in Spain, I was pointed at an area near Guadalajara,
> >where during said "Events' occurred the "Italian Civil War". It is
> >where a Republican unit composed largely of Italian Left Socialists
> >met up with a contingent of the Nationalist forces composed of a
> >detachment of the Italian Army. Supposedly was where some of the
> >fiercest fighting of the war went on.
> I confess I am in the habit of telling "progressives" who use the term
> "fascism" to refer generically to "people of a conservative bent I
> disagree with" to read Homage to Catalonia to read about REAL
> Fascists. I'm pretty sure Orwell mentions the battle you refer to.
>
> (In Turtledove's The War that Came Early" series he has lots of
> Spanish Civil War stories which he insisted were mostly true though
> retold to fit his alt-hist scenario (which is basically that WW2
> started in 1938 after Henlein - the Sudeten German Nazi leader was
> assassinated just before the end of the Munich conference and Hitler's
> response was to declare war) But Turtledove did say many of his
> Spanish Civil War vignettes in the series were lifted from actual
> events, especially stories about members of the International
> Brigades.

Frankly, a lot of terms have lost their real meanings over the years: Nazi, fascist, anti-Semite, racist, misogynist, bigot, et cetera.