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arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

SubjectAuthor
* Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the EasternWolfBear
+- Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front dSolomonW
+* Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front dpyotr filipivich
|`* Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front dThe Horny Goat
| +- Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and theWolfBear
| `- Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front dpyotr filipivich
`* Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and theRich Rostrom
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  +- Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front dpyotr filipivich
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Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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Subject: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern
Front during WWI?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Thu, 20 May 2021 01:05 UTC

Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during World War I? This question came to me when I was thinking about how the US significantly helped the Soviet Union during World War II by sending it a lot of food, such as Spam, and also by the US's capacity (though never actually utilized) to send US troops to the Eastern Front during World War II had the Soviet Union actually requested this. This made me wonder if the US could have put much more effort into helping Russia in 1917--specifically by sending a lot of food to Russia and also possibly by sending some US troops to Russia or at least promising to do so. I seem to recall previously reading that the US sent a lot of food aid to Russia during the famine there in 1921-1922, so I'm wondering if the US was capable of sending a lot of food to Russia and especially to Russian cities several years earlier and thus possibly helping reduce food shortages in Russian cities in 1917.

At the same time, though, I also wonder just how good Russia's refrigeration system actually was during this time; after all, American food would be useless if it will spoil and go rotten before it reaches its desired Russian consumers. I also wonder just how much US troops would have actually helped Russia in 1917; after all, AFAIK, the US didn't have very many troops to spare until 1918 and any US troops who would have reached Russia in 1917 could have simply been exposed to defeatist Bolshevik propaganda--though they might obviously be less inclined to accept the arguments in this propaganda than Russian troops were simply due to them (as in, American troops) not being exhausted from years of warfare like Russian troops were. Ultimately, though, I'm just trying to speculate about what exactly the best way for the US to help Russia during World War I would have been. Specifically a way that would have actually been enough to prevent Russia from experiencing the Bolshevik Revolution in late 1917.

Any thoughts on all of this?

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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From: Solom...@citi.com (SolomonW)
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Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?
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 by: SolomonW - Thu, 20 May 2021 10:32 UTC

On Wed, 19 May 2021 18:05:55 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:

> Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during World War I? This question came to me when I was thinking about how the US significantly helped the Soviet Union during World War II by sending it a lot of food, such as Spam, and also by the US's capacity (though never actually utilized) to send US troops to the Eastern Front during World War II
> had the Soviet Union actually requested this. This made me wonder if the US could have put much more effort into helping Russia in 1917--specifically by sending a lot of food to Russia and also possibly by sending some US troops to Russia or at least promising to do so. I seem to recall previously reading that the US sent a lot of food aid to Russia during the famine there in
> 1921-1922, so I'm wondering if the US was capable of sending a lot of food to Russia and especially to Russian cities several years earlier and thus possibly helping reduce food shortages in Russian cities in 1917.
>
> At the same time, though, I also wonder just how good Russia's refrigeration system actually was during this time; after all, American food would be useless if it will spoil and go rotten before it reaches its desired Russian consumers. I also wonder just how much US troops would have actually helped Russia in 1917; after all, AFAIK, the US didn't have very many troops to spare
> until 1918 and any US troops who would have reached Russia in 1917 could have simply been exposed to defeatist Bolshevik propaganda--though they might obviously be less inclined to accept the arguments in this propaganda than Russian troops were simply due to them (as in, American troops) not being exhausted from years of warfare like Russian troops were. Ultimately, though,
> I'm just trying to speculate about what exactly the best way for the US to help Russia during World War I would have been. Specifically a way that would have actually been enough to prevent Russia from experiencing the Bolshevik Revolution in late 1917.
>
> Any thoughts on all of this?

I cannot see the US getting involved in the conflict much earlier than it
did.

The immediate problem the Russians faced in ww1 was the railway system.
This is something the US will not help much unless we assume the aid starts
flowing before the US entry into the war. However, I doubt US citizens
would be that keen to supply the Tzar. He had, in many quarters of the US,
a terrible reputation. Interestingly the United States declaration of war
on Germany (1917) came only after the Tzar was overthrown in the February
Revolution.

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 20 May 2021 15:20 UTC

Yes. The US _could_ have.

But why? Why get into a foreign entanglement?
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the
Eastern Front during WWI?
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Thu, 20 May 2021 23:36 UTC

On 5/19/21 8:05 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern
> Front during World War I? This question came to me when I was
> thinking about how the US significantly helped the Soviet Union
> during World War II by sending it a lot of food, such as Spam, and
> also by the US's capacity (though never actually utilized) to send US
> troops to the Eastern Front during World War II had the Soviet Union
> actually requested this. This made me wonder if the US could have put
> much more effort into helping Russia in 1917--specifically by sending
> a lot of food to Russia and also possibly by sending some US troops
> to Russia or at least promising to do so. I seem to recall previously
> reading that the US sent a lot of food aid to Russia during the
> famine there in 1921-1922, so I'm wondering if the US was capable of
> sending a lot of food to Russia and especially to Russian cities
> several years earlier and thus possibly helping reduce food shortages
> in Russian cities in 1917.
The US did ship some aid to Russia in 1917-1918; it piled up
at Murmansk and Vladivostok for want of transport to move it
anywhere. It was largely arms aid AIUI; one reason US forces
were deployed to those points in 1918-1920 was to recover all
the military stuff, rather than leave it to fall into the hands
of whoever (and especially not the Bolsheviks).

The food aid that arrived after the war was mostly shipped in
via the Black Sea ports and Petrograd, which hadn't been
available during the war.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the
Eastern Front during WWI?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Fri, 21 May 2021 02:37 UTC

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 4:36:17 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 5/19/21 8:05 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern
> > Front during World War I? This question came to me when I was
> > thinking about how the US significantly helped the Soviet Union
> > during World War II by sending it a lot of food, such as Spam, and
> > also by the US's capacity (though never actually utilized) to send US
> > troops to the Eastern Front during World War II had the Soviet Union
> > actually requested this. This made me wonder if the US could have put
> > much more effort into helping Russia in 1917--specifically by sending
> > a lot of food to Russia and also possibly by sending some US troops
> > to Russia or at least promising to do so. I seem to recall previously
> > reading that the US sent a lot of food aid to Russia during the
> > famine there in 1921-1922, so I'm wondering if the US was capable of
> > sending a lot of food to Russia and especially to Russian cities
> > several years earlier and thus possibly helping reduce food shortages
> > in Russian cities in 1917.
> The US did ship some aid to Russia in 1917-1918; it piled up
> at Murmansk and Vladivostok for want of transport to move it
> anywhere. It was largely arms aid AIUI; one reason US forces
> were deployed to those points in 1918-1920 was to recover all
> the military stuff, rather than leave it to fall into the hands
> of whoever (and especially not the Bolsheviks).
>
> The food aid that arrived after the war was mostly shipped in
> via the Black Sea ports and Petrograd, which hadn't been
> available during the war.
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Would it have been possible for the Allies to attempt to unjam the Baltic Sea during World War I? Or would that have been way too risky due to such an operation being WAY too close to Germany and thus easy for Germany to counter?

Also, in hindsight, maybe the US Navy should have been used together with the other Western Allied navies to unjam the Straits in 1917 and thus to open the Black Sea to Russian shipping as well as to Western food supplies to Russia?

Of course, there was another way to sent food to Russia--specifically through the Trans-Siberian Railroad. Why exactly was this option never actually considered? Insufficient logistics, or what?

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Fri, 21 May 2021 05:19 UTC

On Thu, 20 May 2021 08:20:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>
> Yes. The US _could_ have.
>
> But why? Why get into a foreign entanglement?

Was not avoiding foreign entanglements the cornerstone of American
policy in that era? (e.g. after the Spanish American war?)

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the
Eastern Front during WWI?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Fri, 21 May 2021 20:14 UTC

On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 10:19:04 PM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Thu, 20 May 2021 08:20:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
> <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes. The US _could_ have.
> >
> > But why? Why get into a foreign entanglement?
> Was not avoiding foreign entanglements the cornerstone of American
> policy in that era? (e.g. after the Spanish American war?)

Sure, but then the US got involved in World War I.

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Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Fri, 21 May 2021 23:30 UTC

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> on Thu, 20 May 2021 22:19:02 -0700
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Thu, 20 May 2021 08:20:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes. The US _could_ have.
>>
>> But why? Why get into a foreign entanglement?
>
>Was not avoiding foreign entanglements the cornerstone of American
>policy in that era? (e.g. after the Spanish American war?)

As it had been before. I'd say that it wasn't until WW2 that
there really was any support for getting involved in other people's
wars, and then only in the sense that If We Don't, then it will just
be worse. That Wilsonian/Roosevelt idealistic spreading Democracy,
"nation building", etc.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?
Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 09:12:43 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Tue, 25 May 2021 16:12 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Thu, 20 May 2021 19:37:45 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>> The food aid that arrived after the war was mostly shipped in
>> via the Black Sea ports and Petrograd, which hadn't been
>> available during the war.
>> --
>> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
>> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
>
>Would it have been possible for the Allies to attempt to unjam the Baltic Sea during World War I? Or would that have been way too risky due to such an operation being WAY too close to Germany and thus easy for Germany to counter?

The Baltic is bottle necked between Denmark and Sweden. Granted,
both were neutral in the war but ... any Allied Fleet would still have
to transit what is still constricted waters.
>
>Also, in hindsight, maybe the US Navy should have been used together with the other Western Allied navies to unjam the Straits in 1917 and thus to open the Black Sea to Russian shipping as well as to Western food supplies to Russia?

The issue in the Dardanelle as I understand it, is that the Royal
Navy 'knew' there were mines in the straits, and were rightfully
reluctant to risk their ships. Mines work.
>
>Of course, there was another way to sent food to Russia--specifically through the Trans-Siberian Railroad. Why exactly was this option never actually considered? Insufficient logistics, or what?

I suspect that in 1916, shipping sufficient supplies from
Vladivostok was a non-starter. I'm not sure when the route became
more than a single set of tracks, but until that happened having to
run two sets of trains on the same track posses ... issue.

--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the Eastern Front during WWI?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Could the US have done much more to reinforce Russia and the
Eastern Front during WWI?
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Thu, 27 May 2021 11:56 UTC

On 5/20/21 9:37 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> Would it have been possible for the Allies to attempt to unjam the
> Baltic Sea during World War I?

No. Jacky Fisher fantasized about an operation to force
the Baltic narrows, but no one else ever considered it
seriously.

> Also, in hindsight, maybe the US Navy should have been used together
> with the other Western Allied navies to unjam the Straits in 1917 and
> thus to open the Black Sea to Russian shipping as well as to Western
> food supplies to Russia?

That had already been tried and failed at enormous cost.

Having said that - the US Navy had 19 pre-dreadnought battleships
which IMO were expendable. If that entire force was rammed into
the Dardanelles (along with some minesweepers and other escorts),
enough of it could get through to force Turkey out of the war. If
six or eight or ten were were sunk - as noted, they were expendable.

But I doubt if anyone considered anything that drastic.

> Of course, there was another way to sent food to Russia--specifically
> through the Trans-Siberian Railroad. Why exactly was this option
> never actually considered? Insufficient logistics, or what?

The Trans-Siberian Railroad had limited capacity to begin with, and
by 1917 was falling apart, organizationally if not physically. As
noted, much US aid was landed at Vladivostok, but the Russians
couldn't move most of it.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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