Had Japan given citizenship and full legal equality to both Koreans and Taiwanese and avoided war with the US, could Japan have permanently kept Korea and Taiwan? I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Greater Japanese Federation here--specifically one with three federal units: Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

On Fri, 14 May 2021 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:

> Had Japan given citizenship and full legal equality to both Koreans and Taiwanese and avoided war with the US, could Japan have permanently kept Korea and Taiwan? I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Greater Japanese Federation here--specifically one with three federal units: Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

There is also China, large areas were under Japanese control.

On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 1:20:38 AM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
> On Fri, 14 May 2021 16:18:39 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:
>
> > Had Japan given citizenship and full legal equality to both Koreans and Taiwanese and avoided war with the US, could Japan have permanently kept Korea and Taiwan? I'm thinking of something along the lines of a Greater Japanese Federation here--specifically one with three federal units: Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.
> There is also China, large areas were under Japanese control.

Yes, especially but not only Manchuria.

On 5/14/21 6:18 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> Had Japan given citizenship and full legal equality to both Koreans
> and Taiwanese and avoided war with the US, could Japan have permanently
> kept Korea and Taiwan? I'm thinking of something along the lines of a
> Greater Japanese Federation here--specifically one with three federal
> units: Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.

All Japan has to do is avoid war, and remain a
semi-dictatorship. Full equality for the lesser
domains probably works against continued unity
(at least in Korea). Japan is quite likely to
get into the same position as Britain was in the
late 1800s: stuck with a large bloc in in the
legislature who do nothing but obstruct business
till they get what they want.

(In the British case - the Irish Nationalists
led by Parnell of just talking - and talking and
talking and _talking_, making it impossible for
Parliament to get anything done. And if there's
anything Irishmen can do, it's talk.)

Taiwan is less likely to seek separation; they
would probably fear absorption by China.

And I really don't see a "federal" system at all.
That sort of devolution means effective internal
autonomy for Korea and Taiwan, but complete
dominance for all other purposes by Japan.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

>
> Taiwan is less likely to seek separation; they
> would probably fear absorption by China.

If China is a Nationalist, this may not be true, particularly if, as you
state that the Japanese treat them as second class citizens.

Assuming Japan sits it out, then the Nationalist control about 3/4 China.
Consider that in 2019, the GDP per capita in Taiwan under mainly Nationist
rule amounted to around 25,873 U.S. dollars. This is almost double what
China under communism has done where 10,261.68 USD in 2019.

China will want 1/4 of China, including Taiwan, back.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:39:33 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 5/14/21 6:18 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > Had Japan given citizenship and full legal equality to both Koreans
> > and Taiwanese and avoided war with the US, could Japan have permanently
> > kept Korea and Taiwan? I'm thinking of something along the lines of a
> > Greater Japanese Federation here--specifically one with three federal
> > units: Japan, Korea, and Taiwan.
> All Japan has to do is avoid war, and remain a
> semi-dictatorship. Full equality for the lesser
> domains probably works against continued unity
> (at least in Korea). Japan is quite likely to
> get into the same position as Britain was in the
> late 1800s: stuck with a large bloc in in the
> legislature who do nothing but obstruct business
> till they get what they want.
>
> (In the British case - the Irish Nationalists
> led by Parnell of just talking - and talking and
> talking and _talking_, making it impossible for
> Parliament to get anything done. And if there's
> anything Irishmen can do, it's talk.)
>
> Taiwan is less likely to seek separation; they
> would probably fear absorption by China.
>
> And I really don't see a "federal" system at all.
> That sort of devolution means effective internal
> autonomy for Korea and Taiwan, but complete
> dominance for all other purposes by Japan.
>
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Koreans are going to be THAT determined to get their independence from Japan, eh?

As for Taiwanese, didn't they already consider themselves to be ethnic Chinese back then? Well, 80+% of them, at least.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:

> As for Taiwanese, didn't they already consider themselves to be ethnic Chinese back then? Well, 80+% of them, at least.

What is the alternative here to be a Chinese or a second class Japanese?

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 5:16:00 AM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
> On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:
>
> > As for Taiwanese, didn't they already consider themselves to be ethnic Chinese back then? Well, 80+% of them, at least.
> What is the alternative here to be a Chinese or a second class Japanese?

Being a Chinese might be more attractive if China isn't led by a totalitarian regime.

On Tue, 18 May 2021 12:21:28 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:

> On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 5:16:00 AM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:
>>
>>> As for Taiwanese, didn't they already consider themselves to be ethnic Chinese back then? Well, 80+% of them, at least.
>> What is the alternative here to be a Chinese or a second class Japanese?
>
> Being a Chinese might be more attractive if China isn't led by a totalitarian regime.

Indeed, not that Japanese is that much better in this POD

On Wednesday, May 19, 2021 at 12:50:18 AM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
> On Tue, 18 May 2021 12:21:28 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 5:16:00 AM UTC-7, SolomonW wrote:
> >> On Mon, 17 May 2021 14:35:47 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear wrote:
> >>
> >>> As for Taiwanese, didn't they already consider themselves to be ethnic Chinese back then? Well, 80+% of them, at least.
> >> What is the alternative here to be a Chinese or a second class Japanese?
> >
> > Being a Chinese might be more attractive if China isn't led by a totalitarian regime.
> Indeed, not that Japanese is that much better in this POD

Very true. I wonder how Xi Jinping's China and Imperial Japan from before 1945 compare relative to the Western world of their times. As in, which one is worse?