UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 10/17/2021 2:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>
>
> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>
>
>

Let's begin with a philosophical discussion on
the most basic of all aspects of science from
this author in the paper cited below.

AKA Step #1 in understanding science.

Complexity, Reductionism, and Holism
in Science and Philosophy of Science
JÜRGEN MITTELSTRASS

Just so no one thinks this is quack science
about the author...

"Mittelstraß is member of numerous scientific and
philosophical societies and has received several awards.
He has been awarded honorary doctorates from six
universities.

He is a member of the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of Sciences
and Humanities, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and the
Academia Europaea.

Awards

Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz Prize (German Research Foundation, 1989)
Order of Merit of the State of Berlin (1993)
Merit Cross 1st Class of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic
of Germany (Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse) (1999)
Arthur Burkhardt Prize (1992)
Lorenz Oken Medal (Society of German Scientists and Physicians
Award of the Dr. Margrit Egnér Foundation (2000)
Werner Heisenberg Medal (Alexander von Humboldt Foundation, 2000)
Bavarian Order of Merit (2006)
Austrian Cross of Honour for Science and Art, 1st class (2011)
Nicholas Rescher Prize for Systematic Philosophy[3] (University
of Pittsburgh, 2012)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Mittelstra%C3%9F#Academic_recognition

But before citing from the paper...

The starting point of ANY scientific method (Step #1)
is deciding the initial frame of reference.
As anyone versed in physics knows, a frame of reference
error carries throughout and renders the conclusion
ABJECT NONSENSE.

The very first assumption that ANY scientific method
needs to determine is causation. Are we to use a method
that starts from parts to understand the whole called
reductionism, or the reverse, begin with the system or whole
called holism?

For building things, a reductionist or part driven model
is needed as has become habit for centuries now.
BUT THE PRIMARY REASON THE WORLD IS BURNING is we try
to apply this reductionist approach to...NATURE.

That is a gross misapplication of the scientific method.
99.6% of our reality concerns Nature, and if you
don't clearly understand the points of this post...

YOU DON'T KNOW A FLIPPIN' THING ABOUT SCIENCE.

You've begun from a false assumption and all
that follows is ABJECT NONSENSE. Which helps
to explain why our WORLD IS BURNING.

Sorry but it's true, I've done my homework.

For NATURE we need to take a holistic approach, as with
the new Complexity Sciences has done. In this way we
can have a chance AT LAST in understanding how Nature
works and SAVE THE PLANET FROM OUR DARK AGE REDUCTIONIST
scientific method.

If one doesn't understand this MOST BASIC OF ALL
scientific assumptions, when to apply reductionism
or holism then nature and reality itself will
remain a mystery, and the planet WILL CONTINUE
TO BURN.

Again...

FOR BUILDING THINGS OBJECTIVE REDUCTIONISM
FOR EVERYTHING ELSE SYSTEMS COMES FIRST or HOLISM.

It doesn't get any more basic than this...IT'S STEP ONE
(Step #1) in scientific thought and method.

In summation the paper states that only through the
concept of emergence, a systems or holistic frame
can nature be understood. Which is why I go on and on
about emergence, it's the path to understanding the
world around us, yet few have the FIRST CLUE about
the concept. And worse few seem to care.

Showing clearly we are in the midst of the
SCIENTIFIC DARK AGES.

Even though the Scientific Renaissance is already here.

................

Complexity, Reductionism, and Holism
in Science and Philosophy of Science
JÜRGEN MITTELSTRASS

Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Acta 22, Vatican City
2014

(excerpts)

There are concepts that belong to the basic terminology of
science but which are not used in everyday scientific work –
such as the concepts of natural law and causality. Such
concepts touch on the epistemological foundations of science,
and thus transcend individual disciplines and presuppose a
particular interest, the interest in foundational questions
of science,..

In the following, as an introduction to considerations of
a theoretical, methodological and epistemological nature,
which especially deal with aspects of complex structures, I
offer some brief explications of a conceptual nature oriented
towards the concepts of complexity, reduction and holism.

In a comprehensive presentation of the role that the concept
of complexity plays in the development of modern science we read:
“Complexity determines the spirit of twenty-first century science.
The expansion of the universe, the evolution of life, and
the globalization of human economies and societies all involve
phase transitions of complex dynamical systems”.

And further: “The theory of nonlinear complex systems has become
a successful problem solving approach in the natural sciences –
from laser physics, quantum chaos, and meteorology to
molecular modelling in chemistry and computer assisted simulations
of cellular growth in biology. On the other hand, the
social sciences are recognizing that the main problems of mankind
are global, complex, nonlinear, and often random, too. Local changes
in the ecological, economic, or political system can cause a
global crisis. Linear thinking and the belief that the whole
is only the sum of its parts are evidently obsolete”.

In fact, complexity has become not only an important topic
but also the key to scientific explanations in all areas
of science.

The line of thought pursued here in the case of the concepts
complexity, reduction and analogy lead in the philosophy of science
to a position that on the one hand turns against the
reductionist programme and on the other hand represents the attempt
to do justice to the actual complexity of scientific objects,
concepts or theories in a different manner as well,
namely in the sense of a unity to be regained, a holistic unity
of disciplinary and transdisciplinary explanations.

Conceptually or methodologically, the issue is in particular
the distinction between the part-whole relation and the
element relation, since wholes are understood as compositions
of parts but not merely as the sum of their parts. This is
the case because the relations determining the composition
make the whole an independent unity, whose qualities cannot
be completely traced back to the qualities of the parts

In physics the appearance of so-called entangled states in
quantum theory is often viewed as a violation of the principle
of separation and as the basis for an ontological holism.

This principle states that every physical system possesses
its fundamental properties independent of other systems distinct
from it. The exhibition of these properties, but not their presence,
can be influenced by their interactions with other systems.
In composite systems the state of the aggregate system
results from the states of the subsystems and their interactions.

In entangled states, such as described in the so-called
Einstein-Podol sky-Rosen paradox, an aggregate system consisting,
for instance, of two initially coupled and later separated
particles, has constant properties – it is in a pure state –
although this does not hold for the subsystems. The
aggregate system exists in a well-defined state, whereas the
subsystems do not possess the correlated properties (such as spin
and polarization) independently of one another.

The holism of quantum theory is expressed in the violation
of the principle of separation, through which the whole is
ascribed primacy before the parts.

As an aside let me remark that holistic approaches of this kind lead
to the concept of emergence insofar as, both in the sense of
the confirmation holism and also in the sense of semantic holism,
it is the system-properties that give us information about the
behaviour of the system. These properties are in turn emergent.

Emergence says again that it is impossible to use characteristics
of elements and the interrelations between these to
describe characteristics of ensembles or make predictions about
them. The core element of a strong emergence thesis is a
non-derivability or non-explainability hypothesis of the
system characteristics shaped from the characteristics
of the system components. An emergent characteristic is
non-derivable; its occurrence is in this sense unexpected
and unpredictable.

Here, too, our considerations return us to the concept of
complexity, which is, from the perspective of philosophy of science
as well, the key concept of the modern development of science and
points to the future, possibly also to the limits, of
scientific progress.

http://www.xn--academiadascincias-6wb.va/content/dam/accademia/pdf/acta22/acta22-mittelstrass.pdf

EMERGENCE TAXONOMY

https://arxiv.org/ftp/nlin/papers/0506/0506028.pdf

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>
>
> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!

Nah. FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to make
an interesting space opera story without FTL. Heinlein ("Orphans of the
Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make interesting sub FTL
stories but they are few and far between.

Lynn

On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>
>>
>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>
> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to make
> an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein ("Orphans of the
> Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make interesting sub FTL
> stories but they are few and far between.
>
> Lynn
>
>
>

But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
Understanding how nature and reality truly works
can inspire all kinds of unique stories.

For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
and an idea all are created and evolves following
the very same abstract evolutionary process.

For instance, with natural systems the whole comes first
the parts later. How is that even possible? But it's true.

For instance, the Earth is the center of our universe
since every ecosystem is a unique mini-universe of
it's own. And old growth forest has more 'universes'
constructively and destructively overlapping, in
both space, scale and time than any sci-fi plot
could possibly envision.

Yet such a massively complex cacophony of interacting
'universes' manage to sum-over to ever higher forms of
evolution over time.

For instance, the secret to nature, the ultimate source
of the creation of all visible order in the universe
can easily be seen in the Mona Lisa Smile.

Who needs FTL to visit strange new worlds, as they
are all around us if you know how to see it.

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 10/18/2021 5:46 PM, Jonathan wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>
>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein ("Orphans
>> of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make interesting
>> sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>
>> Lynn
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>
> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
> and an idea all are created and evolves following
> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>
> For instance, with natural systems the whole comes first
> the parts later. How is that even possible? But it's true.
>
> For instance, the Earth is the center of our universe
> since every ecosystem is a unique mini-universe of
> it's own. And old growth forest has more 'universes'
> constructively and destructively overlapping, in
> both space, scale and time than any sci-fi plot
> could possibly envision.
>
> Yet such a massively complex cacophony of interacting
> 'universes' manage to sum-over to ever higher forms of
> evolution over time.
>
> For instance, the secret to nature, the ultimate source
> of the creation of all visible order in the universe
> can easily be seen in the Mona Lisa Smile.
>
> Who needs FTL to visit strange new worlds, as they
> are all around us if you know how to see it.

Do you actually read science fiction ?

Lynn

On 2021-10-18 4:46 p.m., Jonathan wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>
>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein ("Orphans
>> of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make interesting
>> sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>
>> Lynn
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>
> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
> and an idea all are created and evolves following
> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>

No. They don't.

On 10/18/2021 6:58 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 5:46 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>>
>>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein
>>> ("Orphans of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make
>>> interesting sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
>> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
>> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>>
>> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
>> and an idea all are created and evolves following
>> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>>
>> For instance, with natural systems the whole comes first
>> the parts later. How is that even possible? But it's true.
>>
>> For instance, the Earth is the center of our universe
>> since every ecosystem is a unique mini-universe of
>> it's own. And old growth forest has more 'universes'
>> constructively and destructively overlapping, in
>> both space, scale and time than any sci-fi plot
>> could possibly envision.
>>
>> Yet such a massively complex cacophony of interacting
>> 'universes' manage to sum-over to ever higher forms of
>> evolution over time.
>>
>> For instance, the secret to nature, the ultimate source
>> of the creation of all visible order in the universe
>> can easily be seen in the Mona Lisa Smile.
>>
>> Who needs FTL to visit strange new worlds, as they
>> are all around us if you know how to see it.
>
> Do you actually read science fiction ?
>

Read? The last book I read was the Wartime Journals
of Charles Lindbergh a couple of decades ago.

And the only reason I read it is because the cover
showed a single page of his handwriting, I looked
at it and read one line off the cover. Then I opened
the book randomly 4 or 500 pages in or so and looked
at the page and read one line. It was the same line
I read on the cover. Considering the book was
over a 1000 pages long I was drawn to that
incredible stroke of random luck.

I had to read it~

Look you guys are into fiction, I'm into science.
What is so odd about that?

I'm here to show that in the last ten years or so
science has been upended. Everything has changed.
And this scientific revolution is still mired mostly
in the ivory towers.

Let me tell you the hard truth. EVERYTHING IN THE
UNIVERSE IS EMERGENT.

Everything! And you know what that means? If one
isn't well-versed in the concept of emergence
than one DOESN'T KNOW A GODDAMMED THING ABOUT
THE UNIVERSE.

If you don't know the difference between say
types 1 - 4 emergence, tunneling emergence,
strong emergence, the barrier of relevance
etc etc.

Then the creation and evolution of everything in
the universe is a complete mystery to you.
EVERYTHING!

It's like I'm talking to people from the 19th century
that haven't heard about an atom, or a cell.

This ng and much of the lay world is that far behind.

> Lynn
>
>

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 10/18/2021 10:11 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2021-10-18 4:46 p.m., Jonathan wrote:
>> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>>
>>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein
>>> ("Orphans of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make
>>> interesting sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>>
>>> Lynn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
>> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
>> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>>
>> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
>> and an idea all are created and evolves following
>> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>>
>
> No.  They don't.

Why? Can you back up your claim with more than
a wave of the hand? I can back up my claim
with all the cites you could want.

In a debate it's not good enough to merely say
"you're wrong". One must point out precisely
the issue being disputed and give their reasons.

Otherwise it's just children in a sandbox kicking
sand in each others face...no it isn't - yes it is.
no it isn't - yes it is...no it isn't - yes it is.
until someone finally cries...

Momma!

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

On 19/10/2021 9:55 a.m., Jonathan wrote:
> On 10/18/2021 10:11 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2021-10-18 4:46 p.m., Jonathan wrote:
>>> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>>>
>>>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>>>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein
>>>> ("Orphans of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did make
>>>> interesting sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
>>> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
>>> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>>>
>>> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
>>> and an idea all are created and evolves following
>>> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>>>
>>
>> No.  They don't.
>
>
> Why? Can you back up your claim with more than
> a wave of the hand? I can back up my claim
> with all the cites you could want.
>

No. You can't. You can't back up your claim with any cites about how
ideas are created because the mechanics of idea creation aren't nearly
understood enough for that. And natural selection has nothing
whatsoever to do with how clouds are formed and change.

On 10/27/2021 9:58 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 19/10/2021 9:55 a.m., Jonathan wrote:
>> On 10/18/2021 10:11 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-18 4:46 p.m., Jonathan wrote:
>>>> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>>>>
>>>>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>>>>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein
>>>>> ("Orphans of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did
>>>>> make interesting sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>>>>
>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
>>>> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
>>>> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>>>>
>>>> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
>>>> and an idea all are created and evolves following
>>>> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No.  They don't.
>>
>>
>> Why? Can you back up your claim with more than
>> a wave of the hand? I can back up my claim
>> with all the cites you could want.
>>
>
> No.  You can't.  You can't back up your claim with any cites about how
> ideas are created because the mechanics of idea creation aren't nearly
> understood enough for that.

What came up first in a quick 3 minute search, it's lunchtime,
no time for any more.

HUMAN SYSTEMS DYNAMICS INSTITUTE

Complex Adaptive System

This representation of a Complex Adaptive System (CAS) offers you a way
to think about how patterns emerge from the complex interdependencies
around you. Use it to inform understanding and action as you work to
influence dominant patterns in your system.

In human systems at all scales, you see patterns that emerge from the
interactions of agents in that system. Thoughts, experiences,
perceptions interact to create patterns of thought.
https://www.hsdinstitute.org/resources/complex-adaptive-system.html

Examining innovation in hospital units: a complex adaptive systems approach

Broberg and Edwards [24] do mention that because the hospital unit is a
“complex sociotechnical system” comprised of both technical and social
components, that the culture between professional domains must be
considered when generating innovative ideas. Another study suggests that
complexity theory would help in determining predictors for innovation [25].

Table 1 Sampling of Empirical Studies of Hospital Unit Innovation

Full size table

In studies that examine innovation at the organizational level, we find
more examples of the consideration of complexity and how it may relate
to the unit level.
https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-020-05403-2

  And natural selection has nothing
> whatsoever to do with how clouds are formed and change.

(iZone) Computer Science in Science PD: Introduction to
Complex Adaptive Systems #4

The study of weather, particularly the formation of clouds is an example
of a complex adaptive system. Clouds are adaptive, they self organize
into patterns in response to interactions with agents: Temperature,
humidity, energy from the sun. If any element of the system is changed,
clouds react/adapt.
The characteristics of the Complex Adaptive System met by the cloud
systems are
emergent patterns
non linear
self organizing
feedback loop
adaptive
chaotic behavior
stochastic

https://forum.code.org/t/izone-computer-science-in-science-pd-introduction-to-complex-adaptive-systems-4/119/2

So clouds and ideas seem to be linked by a common
theory, eh? Any curious mind would want to find
out how.

Of course this very same concept can also be
put to use in teaching one....HOW TO LEARN.

Learning and Complex Adaptive Systems

This paper examines the basic characteristics of complex adaptive
systems and asks whether these are relevant to human cognition.
Definitions and examples of complex adaptive systems are provided as an
introduction. As not all complex adaptive systems are biological, the
concept of autopoesis is introduced as a framework for further
exploration of these ideas in a human context. Evidence is presented in
support of the brain and neurological system as self organized via
synchrony. With this in mind, learning at both the unconscious and
conscious levels is considered. The learning landscape within the
individual human and in which the human individual participates is
explored through the lens of complex adaptive systems and autopoesis,
and the physiological and philosophical implications of this point of
view for the design of formal learning experiences are discussed. It is
suggested that fostering curiosity in the search for excellent solutions
(rather than single right answers), allowing time for exploration and
then mastery, and acceptance of the disequilibrium that is a necessary
part of the ever-changing learning landscape are approaches that could
help create formal learning environments in which learners thrive.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266141276_Learning_and_Complex_Adaptive_Systems

And the same concept is used for even the Universe Itself...

Complex Systems in Cosmology: "The Antennae" Case Study.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221135241_Complex_Systems_in_Cosmology_The_Antennae_Case_Study

And even life...

Gaia as a complex adaptive system
June 2002Philosophical Transactions of The Royal Society
Biological Sciences
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11294720_Gaia_as_a_complex_adaptive_system

--
BIG LIE From Wiki - "The German expression was coined by Adolf Hitler
when he dictated his 1925 book Mein Kampf, to describe the use of a lie
so *colossal* that no one would believe that someone "could have the
impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie

I bet you can't name a single natural discipline where this
concept DOES NOT APPLY.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 07:58:17 -0600, David Johnston
<davidjohnston29@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 19/10/2021 9:55 a.m., Jonathan wrote:
>> On 10/18/2021 10:11 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2021-10-18 4:46 p.m., Jonathan wrote:

<snippo>

>>>> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
>>>> and an idea all are created and evolves following
>>>> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>>>>
>>>
>>> No.  They don't.
>>
>>
>> Why? Can you back up your claim with more than
>> a wave of the hand? I can back up my claim
>> with all the cites you could want.
>>
>
>No. You can't. You can't back up your claim with any cites about how
>ideas are created because the mechanics of idea creation aren't nearly
>understood enough for that. And natural selection has nothing
>whatsoever to do with how clouds are formed and change.

Ah, but he is using "evolution". The basic meaning of which is
"change". Note that he did not specify the "abstract evolutionary
process"; "things change" may be what he had in mind (so to speak),
who can say?

And, indeed, everything he cites /changes/. It is, in fact, in /this/
sense that all of Science is said to be based on evolution. This is in
opposition to the older view, where /nothing/ changed but everthing
was the same as it was when God created it. That is why discovering
seashells on mountaintops was so revolutionary: it implied /change/
(among other things).

OTOH, you are correct that Natural Selection is only involved (AFAIK)
with biological evolution. Stellar evolution, for example, certainly
does not involve Natural Selection. Or genes, or reproduction.

Although I suppose it would be possible to regard things like the
working of the Marketplace as somewhat similar. But I don't recall
anyone worth listening to using "Natural Selection" in that context.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 27 Oct 2021 11:36:08 -0400, Jonathan <Mail.Instead@gmail.com>
wrote:

<skippo pre>

>What came up first in a quick 3 minute search, it's lunchtime,
>no time for any more.
>
>
>HUMAN SYSTEMS DYNAMICS INSTITUTE
>
>Complex Adaptive System
>
>This representation of a Complex Adaptive System (CAS) offers you a way
>to think about how patterns emerge from the complex interdependencies
>around you. Use it to inform understanding and action as you work to
>influence dominant patterns in your system.
>
>In human systems at all scales, you see patterns that emerge from the
>interactions of agents in that system. Thoughts, experiences,
>perceptions interact to create patterns of thought.
>https://www.hsdinstitute.org/resources/complex-adaptive-system.html

Humans see patterns /everywhere/. It is hard-wired into our brains.

We are especially good at seeing them if we are looking for them.

The question is not, do humans see patterns? The question is, are the
patterns /real/?

Consider Grave's /The White Goddess/. This is a fascinating but very
speculative work by a very learned man which has, as its common
thread, the "discovery" that a certain /pattern/ of vowels appears in
various contexts. From something called "The Battle of the Trees" to
the True Name of God known to the ancient Hebrews.

He searches for this pattern. He finds it wherever he looks. So, what
else is new?

<skippo rest>
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2021-10-27 9:36 a.m., Jonathan wrote:
> On 10/27/2021 9:58 AM, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 19/10/2021 9:55 a.m., Jonathan wrote:
>>> On 10/18/2021 10:11 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2021-10-18 4:46 p.m., Jonathan wrote:
>>>>> On 10/18/2021 2:37 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/17/2021 1:34 PM, Jonathan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> UNDERSTANDING SCIENCE!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nah.  FTL is probably not actually possible but it is difficult to
>>>>>> make an interesting space opera story without FTL.  Heinlein
>>>>>> ("Orphans of the Sky") and Bujold ("Dreamweaver's Dilemma") did
>>>>>> make interesting sub FTL stories but they are few and far between.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lynn
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But my point is that truth is stranger than fiction.
>>>>> Understanding how nature and reality truly works
>>>>> can inspire all kinds of unique stories.
>>>>>
>>>>> For instance, the universe, a simple cloud, humanity
>>>>> and an idea all are created and evolves following
>>>>> the very same abstract evolutionary process.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No.  They don't.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why? Can you back up your claim with more than
>>> a wave of the hand? I can back up my claim
>>> with all the cites you could want.
>>>
>>
>> No.  You can't.  You can't back up your claim with any cites about how
>> ideas are created because the mechanics of idea creation aren't nearly
>> understood enough for that.
>
> What came up first in a quick 3 minute search, it's lunchtime,
> no time for any more.
>
>
> HUMAN SYSTEMS DYNAMICS INSTITUTE
>
> Complex Adaptive System
>
> This representation of a Complex Adaptive System (CAS) offers you a way
> to think about how patterns emerge from the complex interdependencies
> around you. Use it to inform understanding and action as you work to
> influence dominant patterns in your system.
>
> In human systems at all scales, you see patterns that emerge from the
> interactions of agents in that system. Thoughts, experiences,
> perceptions interact to create patterns of thought.
> https://www.hsdinstitute.org/resources/complex-adaptive-system.html
>
>
>
>
> Examining innovation in hospital units: a complex adaptive systems approach
>
> Broberg and Edwards [24] do mention that because the hospital unit is a
> “complex sociotechnical system” comprised of both technical and social
> components, that the culture between professional domains must be
> considered when generating innovative ideas. Another study suggests that
> complexity theory would help in determining predictors for innovation [25].
>
> Table 1 Sampling of Empirical Studies of Hospital Unit Innovation
>
> Full size table
>
> In studies that examine innovation at the organizational level, we find
> more examples of the consideration of complexity and how it may relate
> to the unit level.
> https://bmchealthservres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12913-020-05403-2
>
>
>
>
>   And natural selection has nothing
>> whatsoever to do with how clouds are formed and change.
>
>
>
> (iZone) Computer Science in Science PD: Introduction to
> Complex Adaptive Systems #4
>
> The study of weather, particularly the formation of clouds is an example
> of a complex adaptive system. Clouds are adaptive, they self organize
> into patterns in response to interactions with agents: Temperature,
> humidity, energy from the sun. If any element of the system is changed,
> clouds react/adapt.
> The characteristics of the Complex Adaptive System met by the cloud
> systems are
> emergent patterns
> non linear
> self organizing
> feedback loop
> adaptive
> chaotic behavior
> stochastic
>
> https://forum.code.org/t/izone-computer-science-in-science-pd-introduction-to-complex-adaptive-systems-4/119/2
>
>
>
> So clouds and ideas seem to be linked by a common
> theory, eh? Any curious mind would want to find
> out how.
>
> Of course this very same concept can also be
> put to use in teaching one....HOW TO LEARN.
>
>
> Learning and Complex Adaptive Systems
>
> This paper examines the basic characteristics of complex adaptive
> systems and asks whether these are relevant to human cognition.
> Definitions and examples of complex adaptive systems are provided as an
> introduction. As not all complex adaptive systems are biological, the
> concept of autopoesis is introduced as a framework for further
> exploration of these ideas in a human context. Evidence is presented in
> support of the brain and neurological system as self organized via
> synchrony. With this in mind, learning at both the unconscious and
> conscious levels is considered. The learning landscape within the
> individual human and in which the human individual participates is
> explored through the lens of complex adaptive systems and autopoesis,
> and the physiological and philosophical implications of this point of
> view for the design of formal learning experiences are discussed. It is
> suggested that fostering curiosity in the search for excellent solutions
> (rather than single right answers), allowing time for exploration and
> then mastery, and acceptance of the disequilibrium that is a necessary
> part of the ever-changing learning landscape are approaches that could
> help create formal learning environments in which learners thrive.
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/266141276_Learning_and_Complex_Adaptive_Systems
>
>
>
> And the same concept is used for even the Universe Itself...
>
> Complex Systems in Cosmology: "The Antennae" Case Study.
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221135241_Complex_Systems_in_Cosmology_The_Antennae_Case_Study
>
>
>
> And even life...
>
> Gaia as a complex adaptive system
> June 2002Philosophical Transactions of The Royal Society
> Biological Sciences
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11294720_Gaia_as_a_complex_adaptive_system
>
>

..
No. "Both processes are complex" doesn't mean "Both processes happen in
the same way"