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arts / alt.history.what-if / Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

SubjectAuthor
* Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsWolfBear
+* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
|+* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsWolfBear
||`- Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
|`* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsRich Rostrom
| +* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionspyotr filipivich
| |`* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsWolfBear
| | `- Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionspyotr filipivich
| `* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsWolfBear
|  `* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionspyotr filipivich
|   `* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
|    `* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionspyotr filipivich
|     +* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
|     |`* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsRobert Woodward
|     | `- Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsThe Horny Goat
|     `* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsRich Rostrom
|      `* Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsWolfBear
|       `- Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionsRich Rostrom
`- Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questionspyotr filipivich

1
Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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Subject: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Sun, 13 Jun 2021 01:36 UTC

I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:

1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle Eastern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a nation-state for the Jews?

2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the late 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader effort? For what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several centuries here. If so, when and under which European power(s)?

Interestingly enough, it seems like the Eastern Slavic lands, such as Russia, seem to have had the best demographics for a renewed crusader effort if this effort would have actually come sufficiently late, such as during the Industrial Era.

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sun, 13 Jun 2021 16:48 UTC

On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:
>
>1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle Eastern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a nation-state for the Jews?
>
>2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the late 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader effort? For what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several centuries here. If so, when and under which European power(s)?
>
>Interestingly enough, it seems like the Eastern Slavic lands, such as Russia, seem to have had the best demographics for a renewed crusader effort if this effort would have actually come sufficiently late, such as during the Industrial Era.

What's your timeframe on this? For instance does "Suvorov more
successful against the Ottomans" count?

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Sun, 13 Jun 2021 22:56 UTC

On Sunday, June 13, 2021 at 9:48:36 AM UTC-7, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:
> >
> >1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle Eastern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a nation-state for the Jews?
> >
> >2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the late 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader effort? For what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several centuries here. If so, when and under which European power(s)?
> >
> >Interestingly enough, it seems like the Eastern Slavic lands, such as Russia, seem to have had the best demographics for a renewed crusader effort if this effort would have actually come sufficiently late, such as during the Industrial Era.
> What's your timeframe on this? For instance does "Suvorov more
> successful against the Ottomans" count?

Why the hell not?

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

<5kbdcg97jpt9d8haorjmmg3rqg2bj040rn@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 01:28 UTC

On Sun, 13 Jun 2021 15:56:37 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> >I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:=20
>> >=20
>> >1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle E=
>astern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a natio=
>n-state for the Jews?=20
>> >=20
>> >2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the late=
> 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader effort? For =
>what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several centuries here. If so, w=
>hen and under which European power(s)?=20
>> >=20
>> >Interestingly enough, it seems like the Eastern Slavic lands, such as Ru=
>ssia, seem to have had the best demographics for a renewed crusader effort =
>if this effort would have actually come sufficiently late, such as during t=
>he Industrial Era.
>> What's your timeframe on this? For instance does "Suvorov more=20
>> successful against the Ottomans" count?
>
>Why the hell not?

The reason I asked is that you started your question starting in the
13th century - and in between then and Suvarov you have two Ottoman
assaults on Vienna.

If you look at the map showing Austrian and allied gains after 1683
you see great gains
(https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/cal0b1/map_showing_ottoman_territorial_losses_16831718/)

which tells me with Russian or Polish support they could have reached
the Black Sea.

Which is of course two generations before Suvorov.

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:40:54 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 03:40 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Sat, 12 Jun 2021 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:
>
>1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle Eastern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a nation-state for the Jews?

We called it The Empire, back in The Day.

So a restoration of the Greek speaking Roman Empire is what you're
after.
>
>2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the late 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader effort? For what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several centuries here. If so, when and under which European power(s)?

One could ask, what was the 19th century colonization efforts by
the French and British in that region?
>
>Interestingly enough, it seems like the Eastern Slavic lands, such as Russia, seem to have had the best demographics for a renewed crusader effort if this effort would have actually come sufficiently late, such as during the Industrial Era.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Mon, 14 Jun 2021 22:49 UTC

On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:
>
> 1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle
> Eastern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a
> nation-state for the Jews?

"Middle Eastern Christians" includes:

Georgian Christians
Armenian Christians (including diaspora Armenians
outside the homeland).

"Assyrian" Christians in Iraq.
"Chaldaean" Christians in Iraq.

Maronite Christians in Lebanon.

Coptic Christians in Egypt (at least two varieties, IIRC).

Greek Christians in Asia Minor (and many other areas).

Plus additional Christians of related flavors in Syria,
Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.

These groups have very little in common, and very
few of any of them would agree to abandon their
historic homes.

> 2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the
> late 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader
> effort? For what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several
> centuries here. If so, when and under which European power(s)?

Possible? Yes. Even slightly likely? No.

Napoleon might have done it.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:42 UTC

Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> on Mon, 14 Jun 2021 17:49:57 -0500
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>"Middle Eastern Christians" includes:
>
>Georgian Christians
>Armenian Christians (including diaspora Armenians
>outside the homeland).
>
>"Assyrian" Christians in Iraq.
>"Chaldaean" Christians in Iraq.
>
>Maronite Christians in Lebanon.
>
>Coptic Christians in Egypt (at least two varieties, IIRC).
>
>Greek Christians in Asia Minor (and many other areas).
>
>Plus additional Christians of related flavors in Syria,
>Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.
>
>These groups have very little in common, and very
>few of any of them would agree to abandon their
>historic homes.

I'd go so far as to say that most of them consider themselves to
already _be_ in their homeland, which had been Christian since the
Apostles (or St 'Equal to the Apostles') had converted them.
>
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Wed, 16 Jun 2021 03:54 UTC

On Monday, June 14, 2021 at 3:50:00 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2021 18:36:23 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've got two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions:
> >
> > 1. Was it ever possibly to create a Zion (nation-state) for all Middle
> > Eastern Christians similar to how Zionism pushed for the creation of a
> > nation-state for the Jews?
> "Middle Eastern Christians" includes:
>
> Georgian Christians
> Armenian Christians (including diaspora Armenians
> outside the homeland).
>
> "Assyrian" Christians in Iraq.
> "Chaldaean" Christians in Iraq.
>
> Maronite Christians in Lebanon.
>
> Coptic Christians in Egypt (at least two varieties, IIRC).
>
> Greek Christians in Asia Minor (and many other areas).
>
> Plus additional Christians of related flavors in Syria,
> Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.
>
> These groups have very little in common, and very
> few of any of them would agree to abandon their
> historic homes.

What about if they, or at least some of them, would have been forced to do so, similar to most of Iraq's Christian population after 2003 in real life?

> > 2. Was it ever possible after the end of the Crusader states in the
> > late 13th century to actually and successfully revive the Crusader
> > effort? For what it's worth, I'm talking over the next several
> > centuries here. If so, when and under which European power(s)?
> Possible? Yes. Even slightly likely? No.
>
> Napoleon might have done it.
>

When?

>
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Wed, 16 Jun 2021 03:54 UTC

On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 8:43:02 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net> on Mon, 14 Jun 2021 17:49:57 -0500
> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >
> >"Middle Eastern Christians" includes:
> >
> >Georgian Christians
> >Armenian Christians (including diaspora Armenians
> >outside the homeland).
> >
> >"Assyrian" Christians in Iraq.
> >"Chaldaean" Christians in Iraq.
> >
> >Maronite Christians in Lebanon.
> >
> >Coptic Christians in Egypt (at least two varieties, IIRC).
> >
> >Greek Christians in Asia Minor (and many other areas).
> >
> >Plus additional Christians of related flavors in Syria,
> >Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.
> >
> >These groups have very little in common, and very
> >few of any of them would agree to abandon their
> >historic homes.
> I'd go so far as to say that most of them consider themselves to
> already _be_ in their homeland, which had been Christian since the
> Apostles (or St 'Equal to the Apostles') had converted them.
> >
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

The chaos in Iraq after 2003 was enough to still push most Iraqi Christians to emigrate in real life.

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 10:31:18 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:31 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:54:09 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>> Plus additional Christians of related flavors in Syria,
>> Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.
>>
>> These groups have very little in common, and very
>> few of any of them would agree to abandon their
>> historic homes.
>
>What about if they, or at least some of them, would have been forced to do so, similar to most of Iraq's Christian population after 2003 in real life?

If they had been forced to flee The Homeland, they would have
settled in enclaves "from the old country".
The saying is that amongst the Jews fleeing the Tsar, the first
generation married someone whose parents came from the same village,
the second generation from the same country, the third generation "at
least he's Jewish" and the fourth marries a Protestant."
Take a look at the Eastern Orthodox parishes in this country. Same
issues: a lot of them were founded as a means of Preserving Our
$Ethnic Heritage.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

<h9ckcgpckgi2iafl4sniolje0qfh6m25ji@4ax.com>

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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2021 10:31:18 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Wed, 16 Jun 2021 17:31 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:54:46 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Tuesday, June 15, 2021 at 8:43:02 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net> on Mon, 14 Jun 2021 17:49:57 -0500
>> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>> >"Middle Eastern Christians" includes:
>> >Georgian Christians
>> >Armenian Christians (including diaspora Armenians
>> >outside the homeland).
>> >"Assyrian" Christians in Iraq.
>> >"Chaldaean" Christians in Iraq.
>> >Maronite Christians in Lebanon.
>> >Coptic Christians in Egypt (at least two varieties, IIRC).
>> >Greek Christians in Asia Minor (and many other areas).
>> >Plus additional Christians of related flavors in Syria,
>> >Jordan, and Israel/Palestine.
>> >
>> >These groups have very little in common, and very
>> >few of any of them would agree to abandon their
>> >historic homes.
>> I'd go so far as to say that most of them consider themselves to
>> already _be_ in their homeland, which had been Christian since the
>> Apostles (or St 'Equal to the Apostles') had converted them.
>> >
>
>The chaos in Iraq after 2003 was enough to still push most Iraqi Christians to emigrate in real life.

True. Which does not necessarily change that "home" is that part
of the former Persian empire. Much like the Jewish Diaspora, there is
a so called "Orthodox Diaspora" (as though emigrating from Greece in
the 1890s is the same as being deported from Judea in the first
century), but I doubt there is much effort for the various "middle
Eastern" to return "home". There is no "Next Year in Jerusalem"
moment.
There is also the assimilation issue. There wasn't much
"multicultural" acceptance for Jews (as Jews) in Europe, whereas the
US saw itself as the New Israel, etc, blah blah, so there was more
tolerance for Jews as part of this Judeo-Christian culture.
Non-Protestant Christians at least were Christians, and the
various Middle Eastern variants were "exotic".

That said, the major threat to Jews and Eastern Orthodox in the US
is assimilation. Becoming "American" and leaving the religion of the
grandparents as something from the old country.


--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Thu, 17 Jun 2021 02:52 UTC

On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 10:31:18 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

> If they had been forced to flee The Homeland, they would have
>settled in enclaves "from the old country".
> The saying is that amongst the Jews fleeing the Tsar, the first
>generation married someone whose parents came from the same village,
>the second generation from the same country, the third generation "at
>least he's Jewish" and the fourth marries a Protestant."
> Take a look at the Eastern Orthodox parishes in this country. Same
>issues: a lot of them were founded as a means of Preserving Our
>$Ethnic Heritage.

My that sounds like "Fiddler on the Roof"!

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:02:07 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:02 UTC

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> on Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:52:03 -0700
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 10:31:18 -0700, pyotr filipivich
><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> If they had been forced to flee The Homeland, they would have
>>settled in enclaves "from the old country".
>> The saying is that amongst the Jews fleeing the Tsar, the first
>>generation married someone whose parents came from the same village,
>>the second generation from the same country, the third generation "at
>>least he's Jewish" and the fourth marries a Protestant."
>> Take a look at the Eastern Orthodox parishes in this country. Same
>>issues: a lot of them were founded as a means of Preserving Our
>>$Ethnic Heritage.
>
>My that sounds like "Fiddler on the Roof"!

Yes, and ??? B-) The reality is that most Ethnics did settle
together "where you could understand what they were saying." Little
Italy, little Finland (My wife's ancestor was a Finn who left Russian
rather than assimilate, and moved to Houghton Michigan where he could
remain a Finn.), New England, etc, etc, etc.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 16:06 UTC

On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:02:07 -0700, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> on Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:52:03 -0700
>typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>>On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 10:31:18 -0700, pyotr filipivich
>><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If they had been forced to flee The Homeland, they would have
>>>settled in enclaves "from the old country".
>>> The saying is that amongst the Jews fleeing the Tsar, the first
>>>generation married someone whose parents came from the same village,
>>>the second generation from the same country, the third generation "at
>>>least he's Jewish" and the fourth marries a Protestant."
>>> Take a look at the Eastern Orthodox parishes in this country. Same
>>>issues: a lot of them were founded as a means of Preserving Our
>>>$Ethnic Heritage.
>>
>>My that sounds like "Fiddler on the Roof"!
>
> Yes, and ??? B-) The reality is that most Ethnics did settle
>together "where you could understand what they were saying." Little
>Italy, little Finland (My wife's ancestor was a Finn who left Russian
>rather than assimilate, and moved to Houghton Michigan where he could
>remain a Finn.), New England, etc, etc, etc.

Well yes - 30 years ago I lived in Winnipeg and discovered some
remarkable things: that northern Manitoba had one of the largest
Icelandic settlements outside Iceland and that Winnipeg had the second
biggest Filipino community in North America behind only NYC (which
given Winnipeg had a population of roughly 500-600000 at the time is
rather remarkable not to mention it has a reputation as having the
coldest winters in North America of any city over 1/4 million people -
which obviously is quite different from the Phillipines!)

Both of these are far more remarkable than that Vancouver and San
Francisco have the largest Chinese communities in North America -
hardly shocking given the geography

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

<saj75m$aqm$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 17:36:37 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Fri, 18 Jun 2021 22:36 UTC

On 6/17/21 10:02 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Yes, and ??? B-) The reality is that most Ethnics did settle
> together "where you could understand what they were saying."

I've seen a map of 19th century Paris showing where _migrants
from various parts of France_ settled. There was a Norman
neighborhood, a Limousin neighborhood, a Gascon neighborhood,
an Auvergnois neighborhood, and so on. Most of these formed
near the train station of the line connecting to the home area.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: rober...@drizzle.com (Robert Woodward)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 22:14:23 -0700
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 by: Robert Woodward - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 05:14 UTC

In article <5sgpcghckfo4oa0h2jdkinag4i9of1bups@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 08:02:07 -0700, pyotr filipivich
> <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> on Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:52:03 -0700
> >typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >>On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 10:31:18 -0700, pyotr filipivich
> >><phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If they had been forced to flee The Homeland, they would have
> >>>settled in enclaves "from the old country".
> >>> The saying is that amongst the Jews fleeing the Tsar, the first
> >>>generation married someone whose parents came from the same village,
> >>>the second generation from the same country, the third generation "at
> >>>least he's Jewish" and the fourth marries a Protestant."
> >>> Take a look at the Eastern Orthodox parishes in this country. Same
> >>>issues: a lot of them were founded as a means of Preserving Our
> >>>$Ethnic Heritage.
> >>
> >>My that sounds like "Fiddler on the Roof"!
> >
> > Yes, and ??? B-) The reality is that most Ethnics did settle
> >together "where you could understand what they were saying." Little
> >Italy, little Finland (My wife's ancestor was a Finn who left Russian
> >rather than assimilate, and moved to Houghton Michigan where he could
> >remain a Finn.), New England, etc, etc, etc.
>
> Well yes - 30 years ago I lived in Winnipeg and discovered some
> remarkable things: that northern Manitoba had one of the largest
> Icelandic settlements outside Iceland and that Winnipeg had the second
> biggest Filipino community in North America behind only NYC (which
> given Winnipeg had a population of roughly 500-600000 at the time is
> rather remarkable not to mention it has a reputation as having the
> coldest winters in North America of any city over 1/4 million people -
> which obviously is quite different from the Phillipines!)
>

? I would have thought that, even in 1990, Los Angeles and San Francisco
would have larger Filipino populations than New York City. For that
matter, Honolulu might had beaten both (of course, it isn't in North
America).

> Both of these are far more remarkable than that Vancouver and San
> Francisco have the largest Chinese communities in North America -
> hardly shocking given the geography

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 06:17 UTC

On Friday, June 18, 2021 at 3:36:39 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/17/21 10:02 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > Yes, and ??? B-) The reality is that most Ethnics did settle
> > together "where you could understand what they were saying."
> I've seen a map of 19th century Paris showing where _migrants
> from various parts of France_ settled. There was a Norman
> neighborhood, a Limousin neighborhood, a Gascon neighborhood,
> an Auvergnois neighborhood, and so on. Most of these formed
> near the train station of the line connecting to the home area.
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Do you remember where and also if this map is available online?

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 07:17 UTC

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 22:14:23 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>? I would have thought that, even in 1990, Los Angeles and San Francisco
>would have larger Filipino populations than New York City. For that
>matter, Honolulu might had beaten both (of course, it isn't in North
>America).

Perhaps but the stat I quoted was published in the Winnipeg Free Press
(the largest broadsheet paper in the city and generally considered the
paper of record there so not prone for 'fake news' especially in the
late 80s when I read it)

Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Two Middle Eastern Christianity alternate history questions
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2021 15:51:54 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sat, 19 Jun 2021 20:51 UTC

On 6/19/21 1:17 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> Do you remember where and also if this map is available online?

I think it was at the Strange Maps blog.

http://bigthink.com/blogs/strange-maps

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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