Just bored, and some cheap thoughts:

The problem with Beethoven for me is i don’t think he is interesting when it comes to colours — I think Brahms is much more interesting here… I also get the impression that Brahms is more competent wrt form (similar to Mozart maybe, and maybe one could add Schoenberg?)

WRT symphonies: i don’t really like Beethoven 1,6,7,8 and I’ve got problems with the others - maybe Beethoven’s music really needs a forward momentum… though I also appreciate Celibidache‘s way… hmmm… it almost feels as if Beethoven‘s symphonies aren’t so radical… he is probably more radical in piano solo and chamber music — screw his symphonies…

Brahms symphonies though…. I do not like the alphorn part in 1 and the quote of Beethoven…. 2nd is fine, but hmmm nothing special… 3rd is good, but 3rd movement sucks…. 4th is good but 3rd movement sucks…

I think besides the fact that I respect Beethoven for many things, he just isn’t a composer I connect with well… i always feel he is sacrificing form for action or sth — too much pathos for me… i also do not like op 132 or most of the late sonatas (if not all)… actually same goes for most of lot all quartets… and maybe even most of his work haha

Mozart stands way above any other composer i heard… second favourite is Brahms…

Beethoven would beat the crap out of Brahms or any other composer. He was mental. There's a reason Alex, in A Clockwork Orange, was obsessed with Beethoven.

Or why the guy in tarkovsky‘s movie immolated himself with Beethoven‘s 9th being played?

Howard this is not a good argument…. I don’t believe at all that Beethoven was mental… he just had very strong principles and a high morality which made him a difficult person (his nephew wanted to take care off tried to commit suicidal iirc because of how difficult Beethoven was, but the mental case here is the guy who wanted to commit suicidal…) — there’s a story (not sure if true) of how shuppanzigh took Beethoven to a brothel and Beethoven was so angry about this, that shuppanzigh didn’t talk to him for a week or sth — very high moral standards displayed by Beethoven; shuppanzigh is the one with issues here ;)

*his nephew he wanted to take care off tried to commit suicide (god I hate writing larger messages on phone — especially on this page)

*suicidal was auto-correct

JudeoN4zi wrote:

> Or why the guy in tarkovsky‘s movie immolated himself with Beethoven‘s 9th being played?

> Howard this is not a good argument…. I don’t believe at all that Beethoven was mental… he just had very strong principles and a high morality which made him a difficult person (his nephew wanted to take care off tried to commit suicidal iirc because of how difficult Beethoven was, but the mental case here is the guy who wanted to commit suicidal…) — there’s a story (not sure if true) of how shuppanzigh took Beethoven to a brothel and Beethoven was so angry about this, that shuppanzigh didn’t talk to him for a week or sth — very high moral standards displayed by Beethoven; shuppanzigh is the one with issues here ;)

Beethoven got mad because it was a cheap brothel.

JudeoN4zi wrote: >
>
> Just bored, and some cheap thoughts:
>
> The problem with Beethoven for me is
> i don’t think he is interesting when
> it comes to colours — I think Brahms
> is much more interesting here…

Richard Strauss even more! He was by
far the greatest composer to come out
of Germany!

> I also get the impression that Brahms
> is more competent wrt form (similar to
> Mozart maybe, and maybe one could add
> Schoenberg?)

No Schoberg, please!

> WRT symphonies: i don’t really like
> Beethoven 1,6,7,8 and I’ve got problems
> with the others - maybe Beethoven’s music
> really needs a forward momentum… though I
> also appreciate Celibidache‘s way… hmmm…
> it almost feels as if Beethoven‘s symphonies
> aren’t so radical… he is probably more radical
> in piano solo and chamber music — screw his
> symphonies…

Being "radical" is a lot easier when writing
for one instrument played by one person than
when writing for a dozen or more instruments
played by 60+ people.

> Brahms symphonies though…. I do not like
> the alphorn part in 1 and the quote of
> Beethoven…. 2nd is fine, but hmmm nothing
> special… 3rd is good, but 3rd movement sucks….
> 4th is good but 3rd movement sucks…

Do you like the Alpine? It is the pinnacle
of German symphonic music. Curious what you
think.

Cheers!

DeepBlue wrote:

> JudeoN4zi wrote: >
>>
>> Just bored, and some cheap thoughts:
>>
>> The problem with Beethoven for me is
>> i don’t think he is interesting when
>> it comes to colours — I think Brahms
>> is much more interesting here…

> Richard Strauss even more! He was by
> far the greatest composer to come out
> of Germany!

Maybe he would’ve been if he had continued to follow Brahms as he did in the beginning ;)

Some operas have interesting bits, burlesque as well - also Till Eulenspiegel… but generally no…

>> I also get the impression that Brahms
>> is more competent wrt form (similar to
>> Mozart maybe, and maybe one could add
>> Schoenberg?)

> No Schoberg, please!

Schoenberg asking Strauss to perform op 16:

„Even before it was finished, he offered it to Richard Strauss for its premiere in July 1909. Aware of the complexity and novelty of his work, he wrote: “[…] I think it is really impossible to read the score this time. It would almost be necessary to list them 'on a blind opinion'. However, I expect a lot from it, especially the sound and mood. That's just what it's about - absolutely not symphonic, directly the opposite of that, no architecture, no structure. Just a colorful, uninterrupted change of colors, rhythms and moods. But, and this is the advantage that might make you risk it: very short! […]” However, Strauss politely declined in September 1909: “It is very painful for me to have to send you back your scores without a promise of performance. You know I'm happy to help and I'm brave too. But your pieces are such daring experiments in terms of content and sound that for the time being I cannot dare to present them to a more than conservative Berlin audience […]”.„

>> WRT symphonies: i don’t really like
>> Beethoven 1,6,7,8 and I’ve got problems
>> with the others - maybe Beethoven’s music
>> really needs a forward momentum… though I
>> also appreciate Celibidache‘s way… hmmm…
>> it almost feels as if Beethoven‘s symphonies
>> aren’t so radical… he is probably more radical
>> in piano solo and chamber music — screw his
>> symphonies…

> Being "radical" is a lot easier when writing
> for one instrument played by one person than
> when writing for a dozen or more instruments
> played by 60+ people.

Not really… as Marx said: to be radical means to go to the root of the matter/to grab things by the root.

This means understanding the tradition of composition, knowledge about the methods of composition => knowing the matter you can go to the root (just as Schoenberg did ;) ) and change the direction.

You have to understand the theory to be radical…. To subvert established notions….

>> Brahms symphonies though…. I do not like
>> the alphorn part in 1 and the quote of
>> Beethoven…. 2nd is fine, but hmmm nothing
>> special… 3rd is good, but 3rd movement sucks….
>> 4th is good but 3rd movement sucks…

> Do you like the Alpine? It is the pinnacle
> of German symphonic music. Curious what you
> think.

It sucks really bad - in the past I thought the beginning was interesting though…

> Cheers!

Okay my mistake... Beethoven owns Brahms by far... some lovely solo piano by Beethoven, and the symphonies etc...