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arts / alt.history.what-if / The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?

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* The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?WolfBear
+* Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the earlyRich Rostrom
|`* Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the earlyWolfBear
| `- Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?The Horny Goat
`- Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?The Horny Goat

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The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?

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Subject: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 22:44 UTC

What if the Muslims would have won at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century? Specifically, just how much more of Europe would become Muslim in this scenario and what effects would this have had on subsequent developments? For instance, there would be no Crusades, right? What about the Age of Exploration, Reformation, Scientific Revolution, Enlightenment, and Industrial Revolution? Are all of these things going to be completely prevented from ever occurring in this scenario, with the ultimate result that life will still be pre-industrial even in the 21st century?

Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early
8th century?
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:34:06 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Mon, 21 Jun 2021 23:34 UTC

On 6/21/21 5:44 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> What if the Muslims would have won at Constantinople and/or at Tours
> in the early 8th century? Specifically, just how much more of Europe
> would become Muslim in this scenario...
These are two different scenarios.

A Moslem victory at Tours means only a ding to the Frankish
kingdom, and probable Moslem occupation of Septimania. This
could be reversed whenever there is a strong Frankish king
and the Moslems are disunited or badly led. I.e. the
Reconquista starts further north.

The capture of Constantinople would be far more significant:
the destruction of the only major Christian state in eastern
Europe - the linchpin of Christian power, and the headquarters
of the Eastern Church. Very likely the Avars and Bulgars convert
to Islam. Also the Magyars when they show up.

There will be no missionaries to the Rus, so that area will
convert to Islam if anything.

Once Islam has overrun the Balkans and Sicily, Italy is an
obvious target. What's left of Christendom would be squeezed
between the Norse and Islam.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?

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Subject: Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early
8th century?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 00:33 UTC

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:34:10 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/21/21 5:44 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > What if the Muslims would have won at Constantinople and/or at Tours
> > in the early 8th century? Specifically, just how much more of Europe
> > would become Muslim in this scenario...
> These are two different scenarios.
>
> A Moslem victory at Tours means only a ding to the Frankish
> kingdom, and probable Moslem occupation of Septimania. This
> could be reversed whenever there is a strong Frankish king
> and the Moslems are disunited or badly led. I.e. the
> Reconquista starts further north.
>
>
> The capture of Constantinople would be far more significant:
> the destruction of the only major Christian state in eastern
> Europe - the linchpin of Christian power, and the headquarters
> of the Eastern Church. Very likely the Avars and Bulgars convert
> to Islam. Also the Magyars when they show up.
>
> There will be no missionaries to the Rus, so that area will
> convert to Islam if anything.
>
> Once Islam has overrun the Balkans and Sicily, Italy is an
> obvious target. What's left of Christendom would be squeezed
> between the Norse and Islam.
>

Could this ultimately result in the pagan Norse converting to Islam en masse rather than converting to Christianity en masse like they did in real life? I mean, if Islam would have already spread to at least half of Europe--possibly more--would it really be prudent for the Norse to embrace the dying religion of Christianity rather than the strong, vibrant religion of Islam?

And what effect will having most or all of Europe be Muslims have on subsequent developments such as the Renaissance, Age of Exploration, Scientific Revolution, Enlightenment, and Industrial Revolution? Are all of these things going to be completely prevented in this scenario due to the introduction and popularization of Islam in Europe discouraging such innovations and questioning?

>
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?

<oin2dg1259ndqjo8f66tpmtncgu75h1f0c@4ax.com>

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:52 UTC

On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 15:44:24 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>What if the Muslims would have won at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century? Specifically, just how much more of Europe would become Muslim in this scenario and what effects would this have had on subsequent developments? For instance, there would be no Crusades, right? What about the Age of Exploration, Reformation, Scientific Revolution, Enlightenment, and Industrial Revolution? Are all of these things going to be completely prevented from ever occurring in this scenario, with the ultimate result that life will still be pre-industrial even in the 21st century?

More to the point, if the Muslims take most of Europe in the 9th
century do they avoid the Great Plague of the 14th century and if not
do they retain power? And then deal with the Mongols.....

Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Muslims win at Constantinople and/or at Tours in the early 8th century?
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 by: The Horny Goat - Tue, 22 Jun 2021 03:54 UTC

On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:33:27 -0700 (PDT), WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Could this ultimately result in the pagan Norse converting to Islam en mass=
>e rather than converting to Christianity en masse like they did in real lif=
>e? I mean, if Islam would have already spread to at least half of Europe--p=
>ossibly more--would it really be prudent for the Norse to embrace the dying=
> religion of Christianity rather than the strong, vibrant religion of Islam=
>?
>
>And what effect will having most or all of Europe be Muslims have on subseq=
>uent developments such as the Renaissance, Age of Exploration, Scientific R=
>evolution, Enlightenment, and Industrial Revolution? Are all of these thing=
>s going to be completely prevented in this scenario due to the introduction=
> and popularization of Islam in Europe discouraging such innovations and qu=
>estioning?

This would of course require Islam to compromise on alcohol and pig's
flesh! (Especially the former)

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