How do you realistically achieve the 20th century's positives (the spread of national self-determination, the widespread abolition of monarchies, the spread of democracy, etc) but without as many of the 20th century's negatives as possible (brutal wars, genocides, expulsions, Nazism, Communism, etc)?

On Tuesday, 22 June 2021 at 23:14:20 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> How do you realistically achieve the 20th century's positives (the spread of national self-determination, the widespread abolition of monarchies, the spread of democracy, etc) but without as many of the 20th century's negatives as possible (brutal wars, genocides, expulsions, Nazism, Communism, etc)?
>
Frederick III of Germany living to ninety like his father and his son is often suggested as a POD which would have led to a better 20thC.

On 6/22/21 5:14 PM, WolfBear wrote:

> How do you realistically achieve the 20th century's positives...

ISTM these are the major Bad Points of the 20th century

- China (it is arguable there was as much destruction and
loss of life in China as in the rest of the world combined).

- The Middle East (the crimes of Ottoman Turkey, and the
endemic disorder alternating with vicious dictatorships).

- Nazism in western/central Europe

- Communism in Russia

- Post-colonial Africa

- The World Wars

- The Cold War (for its enormous costs)

For China - I think it would help if the Dowager Empres
went away in the 1800s.

For the Middle East - get rid of Abdul Hamid and put
some decent modernizer in charge. Going back to the early
1800s - suppose Mohammed Ali and Russia partition the
Ottoman Empire circa 1830.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale
<graham.truesdale@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, 22 June 2021 at 23:14:20 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
>> How do you realistically achieve the 20th century's positives (the spread of national self-determination, the widespread abolition of monarchies, the spread of democracy, etc) but without as many of the 20th century's negatives as possible (brutal wars, genocides, expulsions, Nazism, Communism, etc)?
>>
>Frederick III of Germany living to ninety like his father and his son is often suggested as a POD which would have led to a better 20thC.

Uh Wilhelm II leading to a better 20th century? Hmmm. That might take
an army of Alien Space Bats! Either that or give him a mentor like
Aristotle to Alexander the Great. Since we're talking F III with a
longer life that probably doesn't mean Bismarck. So who?

On Thursday, 24 June 2021 at 03:13:56 UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale
> <graham.t...ATgmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, 22 June 2021 at 23:14:20 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> >> How do you realistically achieve the 20th century's positives (the spread of national self-determination, the widespread abolition of monarchies, the spread of democracy, etc) but without as many of the 20th century's negatives as possible (brutal wars, genocides, expulsions, Nazism, Communism, etc)?
> >>
> >Frederick III of Germany living to ninety like his father and his son is often suggested as a POD which would have led to a better 20thC.
>
> Uh Wilhelm II leading to a better 20th century? Hmmm. That might take
> an army of Alien Space Bats! Either that or give him a mentor like
> Aristotle to Alexander the Great. Since we're talking F III with a
> longer life that probably doesn't mean Bismarck. So who?
>
The POD was Wilhelm II *not* becoming Kaiser until 18th October 1921 (which would have been his father's 90th birthday). I suggest that that would have led to a better 20th century.

On Thursday, June 24, 2021 at 10:48:27 AM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> On Thursday, 24 June 2021 at 03:13:56 UTC+1, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 11:05:26 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale
> > <graham.t...ATgmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Tuesday, 22 June 2021 at 23:14:20 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> > >> How do you realistically achieve the 20th century's positives (the spread of national self-determination, the widespread abolition of monarchies, the spread of democracy, etc) but without as many of the 20th century's negatives as possible (brutal wars, genocides, expulsions, Nazism, Communism, etc)?
> > >>
> > >Frederick III of Germany living to ninety like his father and his son is often suggested as a POD which would have led to a better 20thC.
> >
> > Uh Wilhelm II leading to a better 20th century? Hmmm. That might take
> > an army of Alien Space Bats! Either that or give him a mentor like
> > Aristotle to Alexander the Great. Since we're talking F III with a
> > longer life that probably doesn't mean Bismarck. So who?
> >
> The POD was Wilhelm II *not* becoming Kaiser until 18th October 1921 (which would have been his father's 90th birthday). I suggest that that would have led to a better 20th century.

Maybe Billy-boy can wisen up by then! ;)

On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT), Graham Truesdale
<graham.truesdale@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Uh Wilhelm II leading to a better 20th century? Hmmm. That might take=20
>> an army of Alien Space Bats! Either that or give him a mentor like=20
>> Aristotle to Alexander the Great. Since we're talking F III with a=20
>> longer life that probably doesn't mean Bismarck. So who?
>>
>The POD was Wilhelm II *not* becoming Kaiser until 18th October 1921 (which=
> would have been his father's 90th birthday). I suggest that that would hav=
>e led to a better 20th century.

OK so you're basically saying 'because we evaded WW1 and WW2 this
world would be better in the 20th C'' - ok I can understand that. I
thought you were saying that you figured it was something that
*Wilhelm II himself would do that would improve the world which I
thought HIGHLY dubious at best. To put it mildly.