If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin alphabet? Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?

On 6/21/21 5:45 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and
> Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin
> alphabet?
I have no information about any proposals for Latinization
by the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think Stalin was the
blockage. By the time he was truly in power (circa 1930)
the Bolsheviks had 10 years to think about it, and hadn't
done it. The nation had substantially recovered from the
Great War, Revolutions, and Civil War, which meant that
printing and publishing operations had been re-established
using Cyrillic.

> Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the
> Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?

If the USSR adopts roman letters circa 1930, by 1999 there
would be no thought of trying to revert. The inertia would
be far too great. I.e. way too much documentation, too many books,
too much signage to change. Also in the 1920s much of the population
was illiterate, so teaching them roman letters instead was no
extra cost. By 1990, with 100% literacy, reviving Cyrillic would
mean massive extra costs.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:18:32 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/21/21 5:45 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and
> > Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin
> > alphabet?
> I have no information about any proposals for Latinization
> by the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think Stalin was the
> blockage. By the time he was truly in power (circa 1930)
> the Bolsheviks had 10 years to think about it, and hadn't
> done it. The nation had substantially recovered from the
> Great War, Revolutions, and Civil War, which meant that
> printing and publishing operations had been re-established
> using Cyrillic.
> > Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the
> > Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?
> If the USSR adopts roman letters circa 1930, by 1999 there
> would be no thought of trying to revert. The inertia would
> be far too great. I.e. way too much documentation, too many books,
> too much signage to change. Also in the 1920s much of the population
> was illiterate, so teaching them roman letters instead was no
> extra cost. By 1990, with 100% literacy, reviving Cyrillic would
> mean massive extra costs.
>
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

FWIW, Mongolia is currently reviving its old script to use alongside Cyrillic. And Kazakhstan plans to do a transition to Latin by 2025 (or maybe by 2030).

On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 18:18:29 -0500, Rich Rostrom
<rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 6/21/21 5:45 PM, WolfBear wrote:
>> If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and
>> Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin
>> alphabet?
>I have no information about any proposals for Latinization
>by the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think Stalin was the
>blockage. By the time he was truly in power (circa 1930)
>the Bolsheviks had 10 years to think about it, and hadn't
>done it. The nation had substantially recovered from the
>Great War, Revolutions, and Civil War, which meant that
>printing and publishing operations had been re-established
>using Cyrillic.

I suspect the outcome would be exactly the same with Lenin followed by
a different successor.

>> Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the
>> Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?
>
>If the USSR adopts roman letters circa 1930, by 1999 there
>would be no thought of trying to revert. The inertia would
>be far too great. I.e. way too much documentation, too many books,
>too much signage to change. Also in the 1920s much of the population
>was illiterate, so teaching them roman letters instead was no
>extra cost. By 1990, with 100% literacy, reviving Cyrillic would
>mean massive extra costs.

Of course if there's a German conquest to the extent the Russian
language existed at all it would be using Fette Fraktur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fette_Fraktur

(which wouldn't be the first time a conquered nation's language had
continued in a font favored by the conquering power - like most of the
non-white British empire)

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:18:32 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
>> On 6/21/21 5:45 PM, WolfBear wrote:
>> > If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and
>> > Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin
>> > alphabet?
>> I have no information about any proposals for Latinization
>> by the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think Stalin was the
>> blockage. By the time he was truly in power (circa 1930)
>> the Bolsheviks had 10 years to think about it, and hadn't
>> done it. The nation had substantially recovered from the
>> Great War, Revolutions, and Civil War, which meant that
>> printing and publishing operations had been re-established
>> using Cyrillic.
>> > Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the
>> > Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?
>> If the USSR adopts roman letters circa 1930, by 1999 there
>> would be no thought of trying to revert. The inertia would
>> be far too great. I.e. way too much documentation, too many books,
>> too much signage to change. Also in the 1920s much of the population
>> was illiterate, so teaching them roman letters instead was no
>> extra cost. By 1990, with 100% literacy, reviving Cyrillic would
>> mean massive extra costs.
>>
>> --
>> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
>> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
>
>FWIW, Mongolia is currently reviving its old script to use alongside Cyrillic. And Kazakhstan plans to do a transition to Latin by 2025 (or maybe by 2030).

The Mongols are reviving a cultural heritage, and abandoning
something imposed by Them(tm).

The Slavs, OTOH, have been using the Cyrillic Alphabet since the
time of Saints Methodious and Cyril.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 10:29:33 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:18:32 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> >> On 6/21/21 5:45 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> >> > If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and
> >> > Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin
> >> > alphabet?
> >> I have no information about any proposals for Latinization
> >> by the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think Stalin was the
> >> blockage. By the time he was truly in power (circa 1930)
> >> the Bolsheviks had 10 years to think about it, and hadn't
> >> done it. The nation had substantially recovered from the
> >> Great War, Revolutions, and Civil War, which meant that
> >> printing and publishing operations had been re-established
> >> using Cyrillic.
> >> > Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the
> >> > Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?
> >> If the USSR adopts roman letters circa 1930, by 1999 there
> >> would be no thought of trying to revert. The inertia would
> >> be far too great. I.e. way too much documentation, too many books,
> >> too much signage to change. Also in the 1920s much of the population
> >> was illiterate, so teaching them roman letters instead was no
> >> extra cost. By 1990, with 100% literacy, reviving Cyrillic would
> >> mean massive extra costs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> >> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
> >
> >FWIW, Mongolia is currently reviving its old script to use alongside Cyrillic. And Kazakhstan plans to do a transition to Latin by 2025 (or maybe by 2030).
> The Mongols are reviving a cultural heritage, and abandoning
> something imposed by Them(tm).
>
> The Slavs, OTOH, have been using the Cyrillic Alphabet since the
> time of Saints Methodious and Cyril.
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Yeah, so if Russia goes Latin around 1930, then the Slavs would have subsequently simply been reviving an ancient alphabet of their own similar to the Mongols.

On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 1:16:24 PM UTC-7, WolfBear wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 22, 2021 at 10:29:33 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:29:55 -0700 (PDT)
> > typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> > >On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 4:18:32 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> > >> On 6/21/21 5:45 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > >> > If Joseph Stalin never comes to power, do the Russian, Ukrainian, and
> > >> > Belarusian languages all eventually end up adopting the Latin
> > >> > alphabet?
> > >> I have no information about any proposals for Latinization
> > >> by the Bolsheviks. However, I don't think Stalin was the
> > >> blockage. By the time he was truly in power (circa 1930)
> > >> the Bolsheviks had 10 years to think about it, and hadn't
> > >> done it. The nation had substantially recovered from the
> > >> Great War, Revolutions, and Civil War, which meant that
> > >> printing and publishing operations had been re-established
> > >> using Cyrillic.
> > >> > Also, are they going to return to the Cyrillic alphabet once the
> > >> > Soviet Union reforms and/or collapses in this TL?
> > >> If the USSR adopts roman letters circa 1930, by 1999 there
> > >> would be no thought of trying to revert. The inertia would
> > >> be far too great. I.e. way too much documentation, too many books,
> > >> too much signage to change. Also in the 1920s much of the population
> > >> was illiterate, so teaching them roman letters instead was no
> > >> extra cost. By 1990, with 100% literacy, reviving Cyrillic would
> > >> mean massive extra costs.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> > >> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
> > >
> > >FWIW, Mongolia is currently reviving its old script to use alongside Cyrillic. And Kazakhstan plans to do a transition to Latin by 2025 (or maybe by 2030).
> > The Mongols are reviving a cultural heritage, and abandoning
> > something imposed by Them(tm).
> >
> > The Slavs, OTOH, have been using the Cyrillic Alphabet since the
> > time of Saints Methodious and Cyril.
> > --
> > pyotr filipivich
> > "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
> > lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
> Yeah, so if Russia goes Latin around 1930, then the Slavs would have subsequently simply been reviving an ancient alphabet of their own similar to the Mongols.

I mean after the USSR would have reformed and/or collapsed in this TL.

On 6/22/21 3:16 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> Yeah, so if Russia goes Latin around 1930, then the Slavs would have
> subsequently simply been reviving an ancient alphabet of their own
> similar to the Mongols.

Mongolia was and largely is a pre-industrial society.
Russia would be a modern society.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Wednesday, June 23, 2021 at 12:50:00 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/22/21 3:16 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > Yeah, so if Russia goes Latin around 1930, then the Slavs would have
> > subsequently simply been reviving an ancient alphabet of their own
> > similar to the Mongols.
> Mongolia was and largely is a pre-industrial society.
> Russia would be a modern society.
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Present-day Mongolia is apparently 2/3 urban. Present-day Russia is apparently 3/4 urban. Not a huge difference.