How much more widespread would Christianity be in North Africa right now if it wasn't for the Almohads?

On 6/28/21 3:43 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> How much more widespread would Christianity be in North
> Africa right now if it wasn't for the Almohads?

It's possible that the Maghreb would have been like the
OTL Levant - with significant local Christian minorities.

A big question is what those Christians would be. Probably
Roman Catholic, as before the Arab conquest that area was
under the ecclesiastical control of Rome. Though at the
time of the conquest, Tunisia had been taken over by
Byzantium... Did the Byzantines establish Eastern Catholc
control there?

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Tuesday, June 29, 2021 at 1:21:02 AM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/28/21 3:43 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > How much more widespread would Christianity be in North
> > Africa right now if it wasn't for the Almohads?
> It's possible that the Maghreb would have been like the
> OTL Levant - with significant local Christian minorities.
>
> A big question is what those Christians would be. Probably
> Roman Catholic, as before the Arab conquest that area was
> under the ecclesiastical control of Rome. Though at the
> time of the conquest, Tunisia had been taken over by
> Byzantium... Did the Byzantines establish Eastern Catholc
> control there?
>
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

The Catholic-Orthodox schism didn't occur until 1054, to my knowledge. And the Byzantines controlled territory all of the way up to Morocco, not just Tunisia.

Also, why were the Almohads less successful in eliminating the presence of Jews in North Africa than they were with Christians?

On Tuesday, June 29, 2021 at 9:21:02 AM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/28/21 3:43 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > How much more widespread would Christianity be in North
> > Africa right now if it wasn't for the Almohads?
> It's possible that the Maghreb would have been like the
> OTL Levant - with significant local Christian minorities.
>
> A big question is what those Christians would be. Probably
> Roman Catholic, as before the Arab conquest that area was
> under the ecclesiastical control of Rome. Though at the
> time of the conquest, Tunisia had been taken over by
> Byzantium... Did the Byzantines establish Eastern Catholc
> control there?
>
You may want to have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archdiocese_of_Carthage - as late as 1053, a question about primacy was submitted to Rome rather than to Alexandria or Constantinople.

On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> The Catholic-Orthodox schism didn't occur until 1054, to my knowledge.

Long before that, the Eastern Churches had told the Bishop
of Rome where he could stick it. There wasn't a formal
doctrinal split, but the organizational separation was there.

> And the Byzantines controlled territory all of the way up to Morocco,
> not just Tunisia.
Byzantine control in the Maghreb and western Mediterranean
was very tenuous, AIUI, except around Tunisia. Note that
Byzantium was the nominal sovereign of Sardinia, but their
authority simply lapsed, with the local governors becoming
effectively sovereign.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 1:22:53 AM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/29/21 11:09 AM, WolfBear wrote:
> > The Catholic-Orthodox schism didn't occur until 1054, to my knowledge.
> Long before that, the Eastern Churches had told the Bishop
> of Rome where he could stick it. There wasn't a formal
> doctrinal split, but the organizational separation was there.
> > And the Byzantines controlled territory all of the way up to Morocco,
> > not just Tunisia.
> Byzantine control in the Maghreb and western Mediterranean
> was very tenuous, AIUI, except around Tunisia. Note that
> Byzantium was the nominal sovereign of Sardinia, but their
> authority simply lapsed, with the local governors becoming
> effectively sovereign.
>
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarchate_of_Africa

On 6/30/21 11:41 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:

> See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarchate_of_Africa

The only territory Byzantium held in the western Maghreb was
an outpost at Ceuta.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 5:47:26 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 6/30/21 11:41 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>
> > See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarchate_of_Africa
>
> The only territory Byzantium held in the western Maghreb was
> an outpost at Ceuta.
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

How are you defining western Maghreb here?

On Thursday, 1 July 2021 at 04:52:13 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 5:47:26 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> > On 6/30/21 11:41 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> >
> > > See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarchate_of_Africa
> >
> > The only territory Byzantium held in the western Maghreb was
> > an outpost at Ceuta.
> > --
> > Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> > --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
> How are you defining western Maghreb here?
>
Especially as the heading of the thread refers to 'North Africa'

On Thursday, 1 July 2021 at 20:46:32 UTC+1, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 July 2021 at 04:52:13 UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 30, 2021 at 5:47:26 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> > > On 6/30/21 11:41 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > >
> > > > See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarchate_of_Africa
> > >
> > > The only territory Byzantium held in the western Maghreb was
> > > an outpost at Ceuta.
> > > --
> > > Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> > > --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.
> > How are you defining western Maghreb here?
> >
> Especially as the heading of the thread refers to 'North Africa'
>
See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_prefecture_of_Africa (534 – c. 590) "Garmul was defeated and killed by 579, and the coastal corridor between Tingitana and Caesariensis secured." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exarchate_of_Africa#/media/File:Exarchate_of_Africa_600_AD.png shows a continuous strip of land running to the Atlantic. ObFWIW in both cases..

On 6/30/21 10:52 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> How are you defining western Maghreb here?

West of 0 longitude; that is, Morocco and the
western part of Algeria. Neither Roman nor
Byzantium ever controlled the southwestern
part of the Maghreb (more than 200 km from the
Strait of Gibraltar).

The Romans held the coast of Algeria and
eastern Morocco to about 200 km inland,
as the province of Mauritania.

The Vandals smashed that.

Byzantium regained Tunisia, Algeria and a
few coastal enclaves in Morocco.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.