On Saturday, July 6, 2019 at 2:20:11 AM UTC-5, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2019 at 12:31:56 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > On 7/2/2019 12:07 AM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > > On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 11:04:10 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >> On 6/30/2019 5:02 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > >>> On Sunday, June 30, 2019 at 1:10:44 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >>>> On 6/30/2019 1:39 AM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 6:33:31 PM UTC-5, David Johnston wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 2019-06-28 4:27 p.m., Bill Gill wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 6/28/2019 5:15 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On 2019-06-28 12:15 p.m., Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On 6/27/2019 10:46 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, June 27, 2019 at 2:05:40 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> _Mutineer's Moon (Dahak Series)_ by David Weber
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Book number one of a three book space opera series. I read the well
> > >>>>>>>>>>> printed and bound MMPB published by Baen. This is my favorite SF book
> > >>>>>>>>>>> and series of all time as I have reread it six or ten times now. I am
> > >>>>>>>>>>> rereading the second book in the series now which sadly, has gone
> > >>>>>>>>>>> out of
> > >>>>>>>>>>> print as a standalone book.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-Inheritance-David-Weber/dp/0671721976/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I do not know why this is my favorite SF book and series of all
> > >>>>>>>>>>> time. I
> > >>>>>>>>>>> think that I like the standup position of the chief protagonist, Colin
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the First. Or that there are so many different species of intelligent
> > >>>>>>>>>>> space races. Or that the book is written so tightly, especially when
> > >>>>>>>>>>> compared to Weber's later works. Or that an self aware artificial
> > >>>>>>>>>>> intelligence shares the main protagonist job in the book, much like
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Heinlein's _The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress_.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> I keep on hoping that David Weber will write more books in the Dahak
> > >>>>>>>>>>> series but, I doubt it. He did write the Safehold series which is
> > >>>>>>>>>>> along
> > >>>>>>>>>>> the same lines as this book, overpowering space aliens and self aware
> > >>>>>>>>>>> artificial intelligences. BTW, there is an ending to the Safehold,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Honorverse, and Dahak series that David Weber wrote as joke:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.davidweber.net/posts/443-how-safehold-wont-end.html
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> The entire series is also available in an omnibus book, _Empire
> > >>>>>>>>>>> From The
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Ashes_ in either kindle or trade paperback. I also own this book in
> > >>>>>>>>>>> trade paperback.
> > >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Ashes-David-Weber/dp/141650933X/
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Here is my 2006 review of the book:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> "I love this book. Of my 5,000+ SciFi books, it is my favorite. True,
> > >>>>>>>>>>> it is a little bit raw. But, it tells a SOLID story and leaves you
> > >>>>>>>>>>> wanting more more more at the end. That is the sign of a great
> > >>>>>>>>>>> book. A
> > >>>>>>>>>>> sentient ship the size of the moon and the unique story of the "space
> > >>>>>>>>>>> aliens" makes for a totally cool story. BTW, I am reading it for the
> > >>>>>>>>>>> 5th or 6th time (who keeps count ?). Weber owes a couple of
> > >>>>>>>>>>> authors for
> > >>>>>>>>>>> his story: Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and the Perry
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Rhodan
> > >>>>>>>>>>> series. There are two sequels to this book, also 5 stars. I am
> > >>>>>>>>>>> valiantly waiting for the fourth ..."
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> My rating: 6 out of 5 stars (yes 6 stars, get over it !)
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Amazon rating: 4.3 out of 5 stars (71 reviews)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Lynn
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I love some aspects of it, but some of the very things that strike
> > >>>>>>>>>> others (and a younger me) as Cool now are wall-bangers for me.
> > >>>>>>>>>> Weber tries for awe-inspiring scale...and hits sometimes and misses
> > >>>>>>>>>> sometimes.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> I would have actually like the series a bit better if the scale had
> > >>>>>>>>>> been a bit more plausible, while keeping the plot more or less as
> > >>>>>>>>>> is. Instead of having the entire Moon be a starship, let _Dahak_ be
> > >>>>>>>>>> an alien warship on thhe Moon, probably buried there.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> And it could have a hot tsundere named Thora! Me, I'd go with having
> > >>>>>>>> something like Deimos or Ceres have a core that was made out of starship.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Yeah, a starship the size of the Moon is Cool...until you really
> > >>>>>>>>>> starting thinking about the implications, then it's hard to see past
> > >>>>>>>>>> it.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>> Why ? At some point, a large empire of thousands of worlds is going
> > >>>>>>>>> to require very large spaceships. And FTL drives may be HUGE..
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> If the Moon was a spaceship and left Earth's orbit by any means, the
> > >>>>>>>> Earth would ring like a gong, destroying every city on it because
> > >>>>>>>> gravity is a merciless unforgiving bitch.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Not a problem, with a little handwavium they left an artifact with an
> > >>>>>>> equivalent gravity in the same orbit.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Right. That was something so ludicrous that my brain has trouble
> > >>>>>> retaining it. Note that the exact thing would have happened when it
> > >>>>>> flew into orbit. And Earth was an inhabited planet in the setting when
> > >>>>>> it arrived.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> To be fair, IIRC Weber either said or implied that Earth actually _had_ a natural satellite that Dahak replaced. Since Dahak would almost surely be less massive than the real thing, it's probably been using artificial gravity all along to replace the original lunar tidal influence. So leaving a generator in orbit is actually the least of the issues.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I can believe in gravity generators far more easily than I can the planet-bound 800 world society building 100 million Dahaks. It's kind of as if the Sovereign Isle of Wight built and maintained the U.S. Navy...only worse.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The second book in the series says that the Empire of 5,000 suns
> > >>>> (implied 5,000+ worlds) built one million planetoids (of which Dahak was
> > >>>> a smaller version at 3,000 km diameter, the current design being 4,000
> > >>>> km diameter).
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Lynn
> > >>>
> > >>> That doesn't help the situation all that much. 5000 worlds maintaining a fleet of 100,000,000 Luna-sized ships is still very peculiar.
> > >>
> > >> Dude, 100,000,000 does not equal one million ! One million equals
> > >> 1,000,000. 100,000,000 equals one hundred million.
> > >>
> > >> Lynn
> > >
> > > You're right, I was misremembering the number from the last time I read it. It still only changes the degree, though. Five thousand worlds maintaining a million ships the size of Luna is _200_ to a world.
> > >
> > > To my mind, almost the exact same story could have been told, and held together better, if Weber had made _Dahak_ a huge alien starship, even on many miles across, _on_ the Moon. Even the opening scenes could have been almost identical. If _Dahak_ was hidden by being buried underground somewhere on the Moon, Colin's initial 'capture' by the AI and the subsequent events could have played out almost identically, as could most of the subsequent story, without the distracting scale issues.
> > The Empire was in a war stance with a known enemy who gave no quarter at
> > all. The empire had been invaded by the Achultani twice in recorded
> > history and destroyed back to a single planet each time. 200 Dahaks
> > could easily be maintained by each of the 5,000 planets.
> >
> > Lynn
>
> Sure. With Imperial tech, it's not inconceivable. I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm saying it just doesn't necessarily make any _sense_ for them to do it, looked at unsentimentally.
>
> As I noted earlier, it's a bit like having a state the size of the Isle of Wight, or an independent Hawaii, maintain the entire modern U.S. Navy...while living in mud huts as they do it.
>
> I can look past it, because it is light-hearted space opera, but the inconsistency is painfully noticeable.