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arts / rec.arts.books.tolkien / Re: The Siege of Gondor

SubjectAuthor
* Re: The Siege of GondorNomen Nescio
`* Re: The Siege of GondorSteve Morrison
 `* Re: The Siege of GondorThomas Koenig
  `- Re: The Siege of GondorStan Brown

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Re: The Siege of Gondor

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From: nob...@dizum.com (Nomen Nescio)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Siege of Gondor
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 02:18:41 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Neodome
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 by: Nomen Nescio - Thu, 15 Apr 2021 02:18 UTC

tenworld <ten@world.std.com> writes:

> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 4:32:31 PM UTC-5, Steve Morrison wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:44:59 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>> > Here's an excellent text (six parts) about the siege of Gondor.
>> >
>> > https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/
>> >
>> > Tl;dr: Tolkien got medieval warfare astonishingly right, also
>> > tempered by his WW I experiences. Jackson... not so much.
>> >
>> > There is also an eight-part text about the battle of Helm's
>> > Klamm, that's next up for me.
>> I actually did read this series a couple of months ago, after someone
>> on Reddit linked to it. It's quite good, and so is the rest of the
>> blog; in particular, it has a three-part series on war elephants
>> which might be of interest to rabt. The final post has some
>> speculations on why it always seems to be the bad guys who use war
>> elephants in fantasy.
> because Indians in war elephants finally stopped Alexander the Great from conquering the world?

I would say it's because of Punic wars between Rome and Carthage. Bad
guys (Carthage) used elephants, and they lost. Of course, Carthage is
defined as bad only because they lost, and Rome is defined as good
because they are the ancestors of whole Western civilization.

Re: The Siege of Gondor

<s5a3i1$fd0$1@dont-email.me>

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From: rima...@toast.net (Steve Morrison)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Siege of Gondor
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 19:18:25 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Steve Morrison - Thu, 15 Apr 2021 19:18 UTC

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 02:18:41 +0000, Nomen Nescio wrote:

> tenworld <ten@world.std.com> writes:
>
>> On Sunday, January 31, 2021 at 4:32:31 PM UTC-5, Steve Morrison wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 19:44:59 +0000, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>
>>> > Here's an excellent text (six parts) about the siege of Gondor.
>>> >
>>> > https://acoup.blog/2019/05/10/collections-the-siege-of-gondor/
>>> >
>>> > Tl;dr: Tolkien got medieval warfare astonishingly right, also
>>> > tempered by his WW I experiences. Jackson... not so much.
>>> >
>>> > There is also an eight-part text about the battle of Helm's
>>> > Klamm, that's next up for me.
>>> I actually did read this series a couple of months ago, after someone
>>> on Reddit linked to it. It's quite good, and so is the rest of the
>>> blog; in particular, it has a three-part series on war elephants
>>> which might be of interest to rabt. The final post has some
>>> speculations on why it always seems to be the bad guys who use war
>>> elephants in fantasy.
>> because Indians in war elephants finally stopped Alexander the Great from conquering the world?
>
> I would say it's because of Punic wars between Rome and Carthage. Bad
> guys (Carthage) used elephants, and they lost. Of course, Carthage is
> defined as bad only because they lost, and Rome is defined as good
> because they are the ancestors of whole Western civilization.

Partly, yes. The blogger argues that classical sources always showed
war elephants being used by the other side. To begin with, Greek
histories had war elephants used by the Indians who Alexander fought.
Later, when war elephants were adopted by the Greeks themselves, we
see things from the Roman point of view; elephants were used against
the Romans, first by Pyrrhus of Epirus, then later by Hannibal. So to
anyone with a classical education like Tolkien's, it goes without
saying that war elephants are only used by the "bad guys", i.e. the
people whom the Greeks or the Romans fought.

Re: The Siege of Gondor

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From: tkoe...@netcologne.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Siege of Gondor
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 19:51:09 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Thomas Koenig - Thu, 15 Apr 2021 19:51 UTC

Steve Morrison <rimagen@toast.net> schrieb:

> Partly, yes. The blogger argues that classical sources always showed
> war elephants being used by the other side. To begin with, Greek
> histories had war elephants used by the Indians who Alexander fought.
> Later, when war elephants were adopted by the Greeks themselves, we
> see things from the Roman point of view; elephants were used against
> the Romans, first by Pyrrhus of Epirus, then later by Hannibal. So to
> anyone with a classical education like Tolkien's, it goes without
> saying that war elephants are only used by the "bad guys", i.e. the
> people whom the Greeks or the Romans fought.

All of these are examples of where the victor wrote the history
(well, except for Alexander, I guess, he didn't win long-term)
and the other side used elephants, their use does not appear to
have been a successful tactic.

Re: The Siege of Gondor

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From: the_stan...@fastmail.fm (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Siege of Gondor
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 18:35:06 -0700
Organization: Oak Road Systems
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 by: Stan Brown - Fri, 16 Apr 2021 01:35 UTC

On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 19:51:09 -0000 (UTC), Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Steve Morrison <rimagen@toast.net> schrieb:
>
> > [quoted text muted]
> > the Romans, first by Pyrrhus of Epirus, then later by Hannibal. So to
> > anyone with a classical education like Tolkien's, it goes without
> > saying that war elephants are only used by the "bad guys", i.e. the
> > people whom the Greeks or the Romans fought.
>
> All of these are examples of where the victor wrote the history
> (well, except for Alexander, I guess, he didn't win long-term)

He didn't, but his successors (the Diadochi) did. Ptolemy and
Seleucus and the others held themselves up as the heirs to the god
Alexander.

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA
https://BrownMath.com/
https://OakRoadSystems.com/
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen)
Tolkien letters FAQ: https://preview.tinyurl.com/pr6sa7u
FAQ of the Rings: https://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm

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