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arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: Monarchy removal question

SubjectAuthor
* Monarchy removal questionWolfBear
`* Re: Monarchy removal questionRich Rostrom
 +* Re: Monarchy removal questionWolfBear
 |`- Re: Monarchy removal questionpyotr filipivich
 +* Re: Monarchy removal questionGraham Truesdale
 |`- Re: Monarchy removal questionpyotr filipivich
 `* Re: Monarchy removal questionLouis Epstein
  +- Re: Monarchy removal questionWolfBear
  `* Re: Monarchy removal questionpyotr filipivich
   `* Re: Monarchy removal questionLouis Epstein
    `* Re: Monarchy removal questionGraham Truesdale
     `* Re: Monarchy removal questionWolfBear
      `- Re: Monarchy removal questionGraham Truesdale

1
Monarchy removal question

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Subject: Monarchy removal question
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Sat, 24 Jul 2021 02:32 UTC

In the event of a quick Entente victory in World War I (either in 1914 or in a World War I that breaks out sometime later, such as in 1916 or 1917), which European monarchies would have still been likely to eventually get overthrown during the next 100+ years?

Re: Monarchy removal question

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:32:27 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 21:32 UTC

On 7/23/21 9:32 PM, WolfBear wrote:
>
> In the event of a quick Entente victory in World War I (either in 1914
> or in a World War I that breaks out sometime later, such as in 1916 or
> 1917), which European monarchies would have still been likely to
> eventually get overthrown during the next 100+ years?

You've asked this before.

Spain, Italy, Romania, and Russia, all of which had rulers
who meddled in politics and could provoke an anti-monarchist
surge. Also Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia/Yugoslavia.

The problem, as I explained before, is that if a democratic
government throws up a leader who makes bad mistakes, that
leader can be replaced under the rules of the system. In a
monarchy, the ruler cannot be replaced - except by an extra-
constitutional coup, such as England's Glorious Revolution.

And if the monarch is disposable, what's the point of having
a hereditary ruler? If all that tradition results in a
corrupt git like Carol of Romania, or a reactionary clique
of regents for a child, loyalty to that tradition will erode
to nothing.

There were plenty of socialists and other radicals arguing
for the abolition of monarchy. It would only take one major
scandal or lost war or depression to tip the scale.

Note that Portugal and Spain both discarded their very
long-established monarchies. Italy's monarchy had no roots
outside Piedmont. Most of the Balkan dynasties were actually
imported Germans.

Serbia/Yugoslavia was the exception there, but
the crown was not exactly revered - in 1903, disgruntled
army officers hacked the king to death in his bedroom. And
the replacement dynasty was purely Serbian, and thus would
be alien to Macedonians (annexed in 1913), and to Bosniaks,
Croats, and Slovenes (assuming they are incorporated into
"Yugoslavia" after the quick Allied victory). Even the Serbs
of Slavonia and Bosnia hadn't been ruled from Belgrade
before. Nor would Kosovars be very loyal to the Serbian crown.

Russia of course had huge problems - ruled by a monarch
who was incompetent, yet claimed absolute power as a duty,
riddled with revolutionary unrest, and largely lacking any
political force that could steer between the rocks.

I don't say that _all_ of these monarchies would fall, but
IMO none of them had a 50% chance of surviving.
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Monarchy removal question

<ffdc7306-c1fd-4324-838a-0c663f5cc392n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 03:29 UTC

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 2:32:31 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 7/23/21 9:32 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> >
> > In the event of a quick Entente victory in World War I (either in 1914
> > or in a World War I that breaks out sometime later, such as in 1916 or
> > 1917), which European monarchies would have still been likely to
> > eventually get overthrown during the next 100+ years?
> You've asked this before.
>

In the context of no WWI. Here, it's a quick Entente victory in WWI but WWI still occurs.

> Spain, Italy, Romania, and Russia, all of which had rulers
> who meddled in politics and could provoke an anti-monarchist
> surge. Also Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia/Yugoslavia.
>

But not Germany or Austria-Hungary?

> The problem, as I explained before, is that if a democratic
> government throws up a leader who makes bad mistakes, that
> leader can be replaced under the rules of the system. In a
> monarchy, the ruler cannot be replaced - except by an extra-
> constitutional coup, such as England's Glorious Revolution.
>
> And if the monarch is disposable, what's the point of having
> a hereditary ruler? If all that tradition results in a
> corrupt git like Carol of Romania, or a reactionary clique
> of regents for a child, loyalty to that tradition will erode
> to nothing.
>
> There were plenty of socialists and other radicals arguing
> for the abolition of monarchy. It would only take one major
> scandal or lost war or depression to tip the scale.
>
> Note that Portugal and Spain both discarded their very
> long-established monarchies. Italy's monarchy had no roots
> outside Piedmont. Most of the Balkan dynasties were actually
> imported Germans.
>
> Serbia/Yugoslavia was the exception there, but
> the crown was not exactly revered - in 1903, disgruntled
> army officers hacked the king to death in his bedroom. And
> the replacement dynasty was purely Serbian, and thus would
> be alien to Macedonians (annexed in 1913), and to Bosniaks,
> Croats, and Slovenes (assuming they are incorporated into
> "Yugoslavia" after the quick Allied victory). Even the Serbs
> of Slavonia and Bosnia hadn't been ruled from Belgrade
> before. Nor would Kosovars be very loyal to the Serbian crown.
>

Makes sense.

> Russia of course had huge problems - ruled by a monarch
> who was incompetent, yet claimed absolute power as a duty,
> riddled with revolutionary unrest, and largely lacking any
> political force that could steer between the rocks.
>
> I don't say that _all_ of these monarchies would fall, but
> IMO none of them had a 50% chance of surviving.

Would Germany and Austria-Hungary have both fared better?
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: Monarchy removal question

<485026bd-9561-4ef7-bd3c-36e926d8f01cn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:41 UTC

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 10:32:31 PM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 7/23/21 9:32 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> >
> > In the event of a quick Entente victory in World War I (either in 1914
> > or in a World War I that breaks out sometime later, such as in 1916 or
> > 1917), which European monarchies would have still been likely to
> > eventually get overthrown during the next 100+ years?
> You've asked this before.
>
> Spain, Italy, Romania, and Russia, all of which had rulers
> who meddled in politics and could provoke an anti-monarchist
> surge. Also Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia/Yugoslavia.
>
> The problem, as I explained before, is that if a democratic
> government throws up a leader who makes bad mistakes, that
> leader can be replaced under the rules of the system. In a
> monarchy, the ruler cannot be replaced - except by an extra-
> constitutional coup, such as England's Glorious Revolution.
>
> And if the monarch is disposable, what's the point of having
> a hereditary ruler? If all that tradition results in a
> corrupt git like Carol of Romania, or a reactionary clique
> of regents for a child, loyalty to that tradition will erode
> to nothing.
>
> There were plenty of socialists and other radicals arguing
> for the abolition of monarchy. It would only take one major
> scandal or lost war or depression to tip the scale.
>
> Note that Portugal and Spain both discarded their very
> long-established monarchies. Italy's monarchy had no roots
> outside Piedmont. Most of the Balkan dynasties were actually
> imported Germans.
>
Or imported Danes in the case of Greece.

Re: Monarchy removal question

<sdnftq$2rd$2@reader1.panix.com>

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19:22 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19 UTC

Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 7/23/21 9:32 PM, WolfBear wrote:
>>
>> In the event of a quick Entente victory in World War I (either in 1914
>> or in a World War I that breaks out sometime later, such as in 1916 or
>> 1917), which European monarchies would have still been likely to
>> eventually get overthrown during the next 100+ years?
>
> You've asked this before.
>
> Spain, Italy, Romania, and Russia, all of which had rulers
> who meddled in politics and could provoke an anti-monarchist
> surge. Also Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia/Yugoslavia.
>
> The problem, as I explained before, is that if a democratic
> government throws up a leader who makes bad mistakes, that
> leader can be replaced under the rules of the system. In a
> monarchy, the ruler cannot be replaced - except by an extra-
> constitutional coup, such as England's Glorious Revolution.
>
> And if the monarch is disposable, what's the point of having
> a hereditary ruler? If all that tradition results in a
> corrupt git like Carol of Romania, or a reactionary clique
> of regents for a child, loyalty to that tradition will erode
> to nothing.

I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.
An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
it is derived from popular sovereignty.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Monarchy removal question

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Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:27 UTC

On Monday, July 26, 2021 at 4:19:23 PM UTC-7, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On 7/23/21 9:32 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> >>
> >> In the event of a quick Entente victory in World War I (either in 1914
> >> or in a World War I that breaks out sometime later, such as in 1916 or
> >> 1917), which European monarchies would have still been likely to
> >> eventually get overthrown during the next 100+ years?
> >
> > You've asked this before.
> >
> > Spain, Italy, Romania, and Russia, all of which had rulers
> > who meddled in politics and could provoke an anti-monarchist
> > surge. Also Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia/Yugoslavia.
> >
> > The problem, as I explained before, is that if a democratic
> > government throws up a leader who makes bad mistakes, that
> > leader can be replaced under the rules of the system. In a
> > monarchy, the ruler cannot be replaced - except by an extra-
> > constitutional coup, such as England's Glorious Revolution.
> >
> > And if the monarch is disposable, what's the point of having
> > a hereditary ruler? If all that tradition results in a
> > corrupt git like Carol of Romania, or a reactionary clique
> > of regents for a child, loyalty to that tradition will erode
> > to nothing.
> I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
> declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
> regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.
> An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
> it is derived from popular sovereignty.
>
> -=-=-
> The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
> at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Or personally declare themselves King or Emperor, like both Napoleon and Jean-Bedel Bokassa (Bokassa I of the Central African Empire) did!

Re: Monarchy removal question

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:21:01 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 20:29:26 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>> Russia of course had huge problems - ruled by a monarch
>> who was incompetent, yet claimed absolute power as a duty,
>> riddled with revolutionary unrest, and largely lacking any
>> political force that could steer between the rocks.
>>
>> I don't say that _all_ of these monarchies would fall, but
>> IMO none of them had a 50% chance of surviving.
>
>Would Germany and Austria-Hungary have both fared better?

The Austro-Hungarian Empire was considered by some to be a
"successor" to the Ottoman Empire for the role of "Sick Man of
Europe." That is to say, the Ottomans had massive and obvious
problem, as did the Austrians. But Austria's problems were not as
obvious as the Turks were in 1910.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Monarchy removal question

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:21:01 -0700
Organization: ASB Office of Temporal Remediation
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21 UTC

Graham Truesdale <graham.truesdale@gmail.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 2021
10:41:00 -0700 (PDT) typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>> And if the monarch is disposable, what's the point of having
>> a hereditary ruler? If all that tradition results in a
>> corrupt git like Carol of Romania, or a reactionary clique
>> of regents for a child, loyalty to that tradition will erode
>> to nothing.
>>
>> There were plenty of socialists and other radicals arguing
>> for the abolition of monarchy. It would only take one major
>> scandal or lost war or depression to tip the scale.
>>
>> Note that Portugal and Spain both discarded their very
>> long-established monarchies. Italy's monarchy had no roots
>> outside Piedmont. Most of the Balkan dynasties were actually
>> imported Germans.
>>
>Or imported Danes in the case of Greece.

Danes, Germans, from Athens it was hard to tell the difference,
they were all 'Franks'.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Monarchy removal question

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From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:21:01 -0700
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 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21 UTC

Louis Epstein <le@top.put.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19:22 -0000
(UTC) typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
>declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
>regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.

Ah, but the coup was undertaken to Restore The Republic! Even if
the result is replacing the old President with a new President "the
Forms Must Be Followed."
I recall a novel where the plot was to install a relative of the
emperor on the thrown. The coup failed, and one of the plotters
realized this rapidly and grabbed the 'legitimate' heir and fled the
country. "He's useless now, but it might be a good thing to have a
'legitimate pretender' for future endeavors. We can always kill him
if he has no more usefulness."

>An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
>it is derived from popular sovereignty.

The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar!

The king is gone, long live the People's Democratic Republic!

Some parts of the world, a coup is considered an alternative
manner of installing a legitimate government. In others ... no.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: Monarchy removal question

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:49:40 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <se07e4$g77$2@reader1.panix.com>
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 by: Louis Epstein - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 06:49 UTC

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Louis Epstein <le@top.put.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19:22 -0000
> (UTC) typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>>
>>I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
>>declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
>>regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.
>
> Ah, but the coup was undertaken to Restore The Republic! Even if
> the result is replacing the old President with a new President "the
> Forms Must Be Followed."
> I recall a novel where the plot was to install a relative of the
> emperor on the thrown. The coup failed, and one of the plotters
> realized this rapidly and grabbed the 'legitimate' heir and fled the
> country. "He's useless now, but it might be a good thing to have a
> 'legitimate pretender' for future endeavors. We can always kill him
> if he has no more usefulness."
>
>>An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
>>it is derived from popular sovereignty.
>
> The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar!
>
> The king is gone, long live the People's Democratic Republic!
>
> Some parts of the world, a coup is considered an alternative
> manner of installing a legitimate government. In others ... no.

"Possession is nine tenths of the law".

The People's Democratic Republic is dead,long live the King!

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: Monarchy removal question

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Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Fri, 30 Jul 2021 21:29 UTC

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 7:49:41 AM UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > Louis Epstein <l...@top.put.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19:22 -0000
> > (UTC) typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >>
> >>I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
> >>declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
> >>regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.
> >
> > Ah, but the coup was undertaken to Restore The Republic! Even if
> > the result is replacing the old President with a new President "the
> > Forms Must Be Followed."
> > I recall a novel where the plot was to install a relative of the
> > emperor on the thrown. The coup failed, and one of the plotters
> > realized this rapidly and grabbed the 'legitimate' heir and fled the
> > country. "He's useless now, but it might be a good thing to have a
> > 'legitimate pretender' for future endeavors. We can always kill him
> > if he has no more usefulness."
> >
> >>An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
> >>it is derived from popular sovereignty.
> >
> > The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar!
> >
> > The king is gone, long live the People's Democratic Republic!
> >
> > Some parts of the world, a coup is considered an alternative
> > manner of installing a legitimate government. In others ... no.
> "Possession is nine tenths of the law".
>
> The People's Democratic Republic is dead,long live the King!
>
As they said in Cambodia in 1993 (except that the People's Republic of Kampuchea did not have the word 'Democratic' in its title).

Re: Monarchy removal question

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Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
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 by: WolfBear - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 21:10 UTC

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:29:14 PM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 7:49:41 AM UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> > pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > Louis Epstein <l...@top.put.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19:22 -0000
> > > (UTC) typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> > >>
> > >>I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
> > >>declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
> > >>regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.
> > >
> > > Ah, but the coup was undertaken to Restore The Republic! Even if
> > > the result is replacing the old President with a new President "the
> > > Forms Must Be Followed."
> > > I recall a novel where the plot was to install a relative of the
> > > emperor on the thrown. The coup failed, and one of the plotters
> > > realized this rapidly and grabbed the 'legitimate' heir and fled the
> > > country. "He's useless now, but it might be a good thing to have a
> > > 'legitimate pretender' for future endeavors. We can always kill him
> > > if he has no more usefulness."
> > >
> > >>An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
> > >>it is derived from popular sovereignty.
> > >
> > > The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar!
> > >
> > > The king is gone, long live the People's Democratic Republic!
> > >
> > > Some parts of the world, a coup is considered an alternative
> > > manner of installing a legitimate government. In others ... no.
> > "Possession is nine tenths of the law".
> >
> > The People's Democratic Republic is dead,long live the King!
> >
> As they said in Cambodia in 1993 (except that the People's Republic of Kampuchea did not have the word 'Democratic' in its title).

"For the people, but not by the people!"

Re: Monarchy removal question

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Subject: Re: Monarchy removal question
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Wed, 4 Aug 2021 21:13 UTC

On Tuesday, August 3, 2021 at 10:10:59 PM UTC+1, WolfBear wrote:
> On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 2:29:14 PM UTC-7, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 7:49:41 AM UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> > > pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > > Louis Epstein <l...@top.put.com> on Mon, 26 Jul 2021 23:19:22 -0000
> > > > (UTC) typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> > > >>
> > > >>I have always felt that anyone taking power via coup should
> > > >>declare a monarchy rather than claiming republican basis,
> > > >>regardless of the basis of the overthrown government.
> > > >
> > > > Ah, but the coup was undertaken to Restore The Republic! Even if
> > > > the result is replacing the old President with a new President "the
> > > > Forms Must Be Followed."
> > > > I recall a novel where the plot was to install a relative of the
> > > > emperor on the thrown. The coup failed, and one of the plotters
> > > > realized this rapidly and grabbed the 'legitimate' heir and fled the
> > > > country. "He's useless now, but it might be a good thing to have a
> > > > 'legitimate pretender' for future endeavors. We can always kill him
> > > > if he has no more usefulness."
> > > >
> > > >>An "appeal to heaven" change of authority ought not to pretend
> > > >>it is derived from popular sovereignty.
> > > >
> > > > The Tsar is dead, long live the Tsar!
> > > >
> > > > The king is gone, long live the People's Democratic Republic!
> > > >
> > > > Some parts of the world, a coup is considered an alternative
> > > > manner of installing a legitimate government. In others ... no.
> > > "Possession is nine tenths of the law".
> > >
> > > The People's Democratic Republic is dead,long live the King!
> > >
> > As they said in Cambodia in 1993 (except that the People's Republic of Kampuchea did not have the word 'Democratic' in its title).
> "For the people, but not by the people!"
>
Not that any of the republics which did or do have the word 'democratic' in their title were or are 'by the people'

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