Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

People who fight fire with fire usually end up with ashes. -- Abigail Van Buren


arts / alt.history.what-if / Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

SubjectAuthor
* The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?WolfBear
+* Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?Rich Rostrom
|`* Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?WolfBear
| `* Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?pyotr filipivich
|  +* Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?WolfBear
|  |`* Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?pyotr filipivich
|  | `* Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?WolfBear
|  |  `- Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?pyotr filipivich
|  `- Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?Rich Rostrom
`- Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?Louis Epstein

1
The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6704&group=alt.history.what-if#6704

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
X-Received: by 2002:a37:7c7:: with SMTP id 190mr11463377qkh.269.1627174909725; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:01:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:694f:: with SMTP id e76mr246599ybc.247.1627174909525; Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:01:49 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!feeder5.feed.usenet.farm!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr2.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr3.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2021 18:01:49 -0700 (PDT)
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.228.73.154; posting-account=ZUrk_QoAAABZ9y2QYeTVPJa9mdyxu9a6
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.228.73.154
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
Injection-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 01:01:49 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 4
 by: WolfBear - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 01:01 UTC

What would relations between the Ottoman Empire and Pakistan have looked like in a TL where the Ottoman Empire would have survived up to the present-day, such as if the Ottoman Empire would have remained neutral in World War I, the CPs would have won World War I, or there would have been no World War I at all?

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6712&group=alt.history.what-if#6712

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 17:34:09 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:34:11 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="8676eeb298b2588faf1dcb1449a345b6";
logging-data="11319"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX180DyTw6R4oLefLC/RNcVLZfDTf6ieJekM="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:G5cIh3E19bbG7FdetuMOFBtuTXQ=
In-Reply-To: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Rich Rostrom - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 22:34 UTC

On 7/24/21 8:01 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> What would relations between the Ottoman Empire and Pakistan have looked
> like in a TL where the Ottoman Empire would have survived up to the
> present-day, such as if the Ottoman Empire would have remained neutral
> in World War I, the CPs would have won World War I, or there would have
> been no World War I at all?

The first and most obvious issue is whether the Sultan's claim
to be Caliph-ul-Islam is maintained. Only Sunni Moslems would
pay any attention, but most Pakistanis are Sunni. The combination
of secular authority and extraterritorial religious authority
will create many headaches.

Here's another very important point: does Turkey retain control
of the oil fields on the Arab side of the Persian Gulf? The
Sultan ruled Hejaz and exercised a loose hegemony over Hasa,
the northeastern coast where Saudi oil is. Britain had a
protectorate over Kuwait, though.

_If_ Turkey retains the oil patch, and Mecca and Medina, then
there is no Saudi Arabia, and certainly no enormous slush fund
for Wahhabi missionary work in the Moslem community. Pakistan
is one of the areas where Saudi money has substantially promoted
literalist Islam.

What Turkey does instead makes a huge difference. Turkey has
the Caliphate, tons of money (when the oil boom comes circa 1970),
and custody of Mecca. And it's a Great Power (or it was), and has
a large population and land area. But unlike OTL, it will not be
modernized and secularized by Kemal.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6714&group=alt.history.what-if#6714

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1910:: with SMTP id w16mr12904737qtc.227.1627255710460;
Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:6b53:: with SMTP id x19mr13434419qts.262.1627255710314;
Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.228.73.154; posting-account=ZUrk_QoAAABZ9y2QYeTVPJa9mdyxu9a6
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.228.73.154
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com> <sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
Injection-Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 23:28:30 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: WolfBear - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 23:28 UTC

On Sunday, July 25, 2021 at 3:34:12 PM UTC-7, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 7/24/21 8:01 PM, WolfBear wrote:
> > What would relations between the Ottoman Empire and Pakistan have looked
> > like in a TL where the Ottoman Empire would have survived up to the
> > present-day, such as if the Ottoman Empire would have remained neutral
> > in World War I, the CPs would have won World War I, or there would have
> > been no World War I at all?
> The first and most obvious issue is whether the Sultan's claim
> to be Caliph-ul-Islam is maintained. Only Sunni Moslems would
> pay any attention, but most Pakistanis are Sunni. The combination
> of secular authority and extraterritorial religious authority
> will create many headaches.
>
> Here's another very important point: does Turkey retain control
> of the oil fields on the Arab side of the Persian Gulf? The
> Sultan ruled Hejaz and exercised a loose hegemony over Hasa,
> the northeastern coast where Saudi oil is. Britain had a
> protectorate over Kuwait, though.
>
> _If_ Turkey retains the oil patch, and Mecca and Medina, then
> there is no Saudi Arabia, and certainly no enormous slush fund
> for Wahhabi missionary work in the Moslem community. Pakistan
> is one of the areas where Saudi money has substantially promoted
> literalist Islam.
>
> What Turkey does instead makes a huge difference. Turkey has
> the Caliphate, tons of money (when the oil boom comes circa 1970),
> and custody of Mecca. And it's a Great Power (or it was), and has
> a large population and land area. But unlike OTL, it will not be
> modernized and secularized by Kemal.
>
> --
> Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
> --- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Do you know just how widespread secularism, or at least religious moderation/liberalism, was in Turkey before Kemal?

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6722&group=alt.history.what-if#6722

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!paganini.bofh.team!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!tr3.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.earthlink.com!news.earthlink.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 09:25:30 -0500
From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 07:25:28 -0700
Organization: ASB Office of Temporal Remediation
Message-ID: <ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com>
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com> <sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me> <dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 18
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.34.174.159
X-Trace: sv3-V3nGkzO/T7kxwOPUMrKN63/xVwsyRiyh48MN7pwgKZkS+ggymRgBATaNWK3cambY8wumoR+TKS8Vj48!SfwnbGl8gDnJ/0q78FJHJThvHBEGoVFDcW+AgULK6PC6QJT+ih9DG5NZaRZWq6GqCEziSksihxdq!hrvztyARMdedoBwDugbOH+SeUg==
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 2138
 by: pyotr filipivich - Tue, 27 Jul 2021 14:25 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>
>Do you know just how widespread secularism, or at least religious moderation/liberalism, was in Turkey before Kemal?

The main problem is that religiously "moderate / liberal" Muslims
are only nominally Muslims, ignoring Sura and Hadith. Many Muslims
under the Ottomans were nominally Muslim - to quote Voltaire a pious
person is one who would be an atheist if the king was. Many were
devout, but the expression of that was more often Sufi than Safala.

The oil boom was in the 1920s and 30s, as European countries
realized that oil was essential to having A Modern Army. Tanks,
warships, trucks, aircraft, staff cars all required oil.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<9d98260c-f0f0-4b65-9ef1-d63cc4c43b34n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6723&group=alt.history.what-if#6723

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
X-Received: by 2002:a0c:c490:: with SMTP id u16mr21226128qvi.26.1627412862704;
Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f213:: with SMTP id m19mr24292673qkg.449.1627412862568;
Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.228.73.154; posting-account=ZUrk_QoAAABZ9y2QYeTVPJa9mdyxu9a6
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.228.73.154
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
<sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me> <dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com>
<ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <9d98260c-f0f0-4b65-9ef1-d63cc4c43b34n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
Injection-Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:07:42 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: WolfBear - Tue, 27 Jul 2021 19:07 UTC

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:25:36 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >
> >Do you know just how widespread secularism, or at least religious moderation/liberalism, was in Turkey before Kemal?
> The main problem is that religiously "moderate / liberal" Muslims
> are only nominally Muslims, ignoring Sura and Hadith. Many Muslims
> under the Ottomans were nominally Muslim - to quote Voltaire a pious
> person is one who would be an atheist if the king was. Many were
> devout, but the expression of that was more often Sufi than Safala.
>
> The oil boom was in the 1920s and 30s, as European countries
> realized that oil was essential to having A Modern Army. Tanks,
> warships, trucks, aircraft, staff cars all required oil.
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Do Sufis ignore Sura and Hadith? Or do they aim to reinterpret them in light of modern times similar to how Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews aim to reinterpret halakha?

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<eqn2ggtsfrsceoi4fil5pu81a63v29l7iq@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6732&group=alt.history.what-if#6732

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!news.uzoreto.com!tr1.eu1.usenetexpress.com!feeder.usenetexpress.com!tr1.iad1.usenetexpress.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.earthlink.com!news.earthlink.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 08:58:10 -0500
From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 06:58:08 -0700
Organization: ASB Office of Temporal Remediation
Message-ID: <eqn2ggtsfrsceoi4fil5pu81a63v29l7iq@4ax.com>
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com> <sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me> <dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com> <ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com> <9d98260c-f0f0-4b65-9ef1-d63cc4c43b34n@googlegroups.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 43
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.34.174.159
X-Trace: sv3-DIHPS2Z5Vbk2dg0aUadhjwWbb9pE8rDLOyTAypkhw6cG1xW1fjovrNv+B1rU7oivz3SF192mj0snjhg!P1X0PiZ4oB2Rkl2gZQOTpiyQ0U2yEP5F9ODbOLzIoZ7Y2b0i5o211O7GO9bnnJDaSZGYlr6R/AWm!pOZFStbE5Lcy5dlHCUbeBpf6Wg==
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 3713
 by: pyotr filipivich - Wed, 28 Jul 2021 13:58 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:25:36 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
>> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>> >
>> >Do you know just how widespread secularism, or at least religious moderation/liberalism, was in Turkey before Kemal?
>> The main problem is that religiously "moderate / liberal" Muslims
>> are only nominally Muslims, ignoring Sura and Hadith. Many Muslims
>> under the Ottomans were nominally Muslim - to quote Voltaire a pious
>> person is one who would be an atheist if the king was. Many were
>> devout, but the expression of that was more often Sufi than Safala.
>>
>> The oil boom was in the 1920s and 30s, as European countries
>> realized that oil was essential to having A Modern Army. Tanks,
>> warships, trucks, aircraft, staff cars all required oil.
>> --
>> pyotr filipivich
>> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
>> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
>
>Do Sufis ignore Sura and Hadith? Or do they aim to reinterpret them in light of modern times similar to how Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews aim to reinterpret halakha?

If by "Modern Times" you mean the 8th or 9th century (CE) then
maybe. Sufism was a "back to basic" movements, living a more simple
life of devotion instead of all this 'modern' laxity engendered by the
recent conquest of the Roman territories. They would have felt right
at home with Cotton Matters observation in 17th Century Boston
"Religion brings forth Prosperity, and Prosperity hath murdered the
Mother."
I think a comparison could be made to the Monastic movement in
Christianity which began in the 4th century after Constantine
legalized Christianity: attempts to get back to the "core" of the
religion in terms of personal piety. My opinion.
My understanding is that Sufis recite and meditate upon the Suras
(Koran) and learn the Hadiths (the traditional understanding of the
passages). But their focus is upon the internal life.

--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<bb61be39-5395-4b22-9f4d-80c9ad572429n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6735&group=alt.history.what-if#6735

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:204c:: with SMTP id d12mr1393359qka.417.1627502048071;
Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:54:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:ae9:f213:: with SMTP id m19mr1417150qkg.449.1627502047954;
Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <eqn2ggtsfrsceoi4fil5pu81a63v29l7iq@4ax.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=68.228.73.154; posting-account=ZUrk_QoAAABZ9y2QYeTVPJa9mdyxu9a6
NNTP-Posting-Host: 68.228.73.154
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
<sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me> <dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com>
<ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com> <9d98260c-f0f0-4b65-9ef1-d63cc4c43b34n@googlegroups.com>
<eqn2ggtsfrsceoi4fil5pu81a63v29l7iq@4ax.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <bb61be39-5395-4b22-9f4d-80c9ad572429n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
From: m4j...@gmail.com (WolfBear)
Injection-Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:54:08 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
 by: WolfBear - Wed, 28 Jul 2021 19:54 UTC

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 6:58:17 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:25:36 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> >> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
> >> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
> >> >
> >> >Do you know just how widespread secularism, or at least religious moderation/liberalism, was in Turkey before Kemal?
> >> The main problem is that religiously "moderate / liberal" Muslims
> >> are only nominally Muslims, ignoring Sura and Hadith. Many Muslims
> >> under the Ottomans were nominally Muslim - to quote Voltaire a pious
> >> person is one who would be an atheist if the king was. Many were
> >> devout, but the expression of that was more often Sufi than Safala.
> >>
> >> The oil boom was in the 1920s and 30s, as European countries
> >> realized that oil was essential to having A Modern Army. Tanks,
> >> warships, trucks, aircraft, staff cars all required oil.
> >> --
> >> pyotr filipivich
> >> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
> >> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
> >
> >Do Sufis ignore Sura and Hadith? Or do they aim to reinterpret them in light of modern times similar to how Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews aim to reinterpret halakha?
> If by "Modern Times" you mean the 8th or 9th century (CE) then
> maybe. Sufism was a "back to basic" movements, living a more simple
> life of devotion instead of all this 'modern' laxity engendered by the
> recent conquest of the Roman territories. They would have felt right
> at home with Cotton Matters observation in 17th Century Boston
> "Religion brings forth Prosperity, and Prosperity hath murdered the
> Mother."
> I think a comparison could be made to the Monastic movement in
> Christianity which began in the 4th century after Constantine
> legalized Christianity: attempts to get back to the "core" of the
> religion in terms of personal piety. My opinion.
> My understanding is that Sufis recite and meditate upon the Suras
> (Koran) and learn the Hadiths (the traditional understanding of the
> passages). But their focus is upon the internal life.
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

How do Sufis feel about homosexuality?

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<6dh5gghcb4ghjdf09i2u2cmhvkubh1plq9@4ax.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6736&group=alt.history.what-if#6736

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc3.netnews.com!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.earthlink.com!news.earthlink.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 11:21:01 -0500
From: pha...@mindspring.com (pyotr filipivich)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:21:01 -0700
Organization: ASB Office of Temporal Remediation
Message-ID: <6dh5gghcb4ghjdf09i2u2cmhvkubh1plq9@4ax.com>
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com> <sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me> <dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com> <ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com> <9d98260c-f0f0-4b65-9ef1-d63cc4c43b34n@googlegroups.com> <eqn2ggtsfrsceoi4fil5pu81a63v29l7iq@4ax.com> <bb61be39-5395-4b22-9f4d-80c9ad572429n@googlegroups.com>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 3.3/32.846
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 53
X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 50.34.174.159
X-Trace: sv3-9FSYrBbKB1h7zPwGgKCwH4MQ+yF8NN9ZnjxuOwfe3A2kpq11DT3hQBSSewnKYT00xBkc5mjvHlcrBzJ!HaGJ/en68jJiA6izSlIFA5OuISX8hpyCl85CuJN6WE3ZYzm2wb14iG/x9NG0XdsTyR5JMqNEMapU!e7Ky+anl+itNdkcATGvzdeN9Yg==
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
X-Original-Bytes: 4409
X-Received-Bytes: 4588
 by: pyotr filipivich - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 16:21 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> on Wed, 28 Jul 2021 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 6:58:17 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Tue, 27 Jul 2021 12:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
>> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>> >On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:25:36 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> >> WolfBear <m4j...@gmail.com> on Sun, 25 Jul 2021 16:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
>> >> typed in alt.history.what-if the following:
>> >> >
>> >> >Do you know just how widespread secularism, or at least religious moderation/liberalism, was in Turkey before Kemal?
>> >> The main problem is that religiously "moderate / liberal" Muslims
>> >> are only nominally Muslims, ignoring Sura and Hadith. Many Muslims
>> >> under the Ottomans were nominally Muslim - to quote Voltaire a pious
>> >> person is one who would be an atheist if the king was. Many were
>> >> devout, but the expression of that was more often Sufi than Safala.
>> >>
>> >> The oil boom was in the 1920s and 30s, as European countries
>> >> realized that oil was essential to having A Modern Army. Tanks,
>> >> warships, trucks, aircraft, staff cars all required oil.
>> >> --
>> >> pyotr filipivich
>> >> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
>> >> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
>> >
>> >Do Sufis ignore Sura and Hadith? Or do they aim to reinterpret them in light of modern times similar to how Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conservative Jews aim to reinterpret halakha?
>> If by "Modern Times" you mean the 8th or 9th century (CE) then
>> maybe. Sufism was a "back to basic" movements, living a more simple
>> life of devotion instead of all this 'modern' laxity engendered by the
>> recent conquest of the Roman territories. They would have felt right
>> at home with Cotton Matters observation in 17th Century Boston
>> "Religion brings forth Prosperity, and Prosperity hath murdered the
>> Mother."
>> I think a comparison could be made to the Monastic movement in
>> Christianity which began in the 4th century after Constantine
>> legalized Christianity: attempts to get back to the "core" of the
>> religion in terms of personal piety. My opinion.
>> My understanding is that Sufis recite and meditate upon the Suras
>> (Koran) and learn the Hadiths (the traditional understanding of the
>> passages). But their focus is upon the internal life.
>> --
>> pyotr filipivich
>> "History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
>> lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"
>
>How do Sufis feel about homosexuality?

Officially? Formally? Personally?

I have no idea.
--
pyotr filipivich
"History rarely repeats herself" is the cliche. In reality she just
lets fly with a frying pan yelling "Why weren't you listening the first time!?"

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<se4lcg$6ri$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6761&group=alt.history.what-if#6761

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 18:12:15 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <se4lcg$6ri$1@dont-email.me>
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
<sdkot3$b1n$1@dont-email.me>
<dcf5c459-593f-4bc8-9061-3e4976339a27n@googlegroups.com>
<ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2021 23:12:16 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="cb26f7ab1e78c094f0f1115d6010a93f";
logging-data="7026"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19OnRVvWjaftotS8Ro6I2Eg+ddxeN53hOY="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:78.0)
Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.12.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:SOugspprTdHkJVVqEUuB8zfgJvw=
In-Reply-To: <ho40ggt4aer7kq86djed49d09oqkj8utu2@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-US
 by: Rich Rostrom - Sat, 31 Jul 2021 23:12 UTC

On 7/27/21 9:25 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> The oil boom was in the 1920s and 30s, as European countries
> realized that oil was essential to having A Modern Army. Tanks,
> warships, trucks, aircraft, staff cars all required oil.

That actually happened in the 1910s; Britain switched to
oil-burning warships after securing oil supplies in the
Middle East (Iran),

There was a very limited "oil boom" through the 1930s,
but oil remained cheap until the 1970s.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?

<seiesp$a50$1@reader1.panix.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/arts/article-flat.php?id=6792&group=alt.history.what-if#6792

 copy link   Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!panix!.POSTED.main.put.com!not-for-mail
From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The state of Ottoman-Pakistani relations?
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 04:47:21 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <seiesp$a50$1@reader1.panix.com>
References: <a9328f23-72a0-41b4-bf5f-61a5060c9224n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2021 04:47:21 -0000 (UTC)
Injection-Info: reader1.panix.com; posting-host="main.put.com:12.144.5.2";
logging-data="10400"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@panix.com"
User-Agent: tin/2.4.4-20191224 ("Millburn") (FreeBSD/11.4-RELEASE-p3 (amd64))
 by: Louis Epstein - Fri, 6 Aug 2021 04:47 UTC

WolfBear <m4josh@gmail.com> wrote:
> What would relations between the Ottoman Empire and Pakistan have looked like
> in a TL where the Ottoman Empire would have survived up to the present-day,
> such as if the Ottoman Empire would have remained neutral in World War I, the
> CPs would have won World War I, or there would have been no World War I at
> all?

Which of these would affect the course of the Ottoman Empire to some degree:
a Britain defeated in WW I would have less influence across the Middle
East,but how much help might the Ottomans get in asserting themselves,
in return for what?

Would the POD in the war be before or after the British wrested control
of Qatar from the Ottomans (1915/6) or declared the independence of Egypt
(1917)?(The Brits had de facto control of Egypt in 1882,as the Ottomans
had little control over the hereditary Mohammed Ali dynasty,but until
1917 the British nominally recognized it as Ottoman territory as long
as the Sultan would fire any Khedive who the British found inconvenient).

Zionism would I suppose be frustrated in this TL.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

1
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor