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arts / alt.history.what-if / The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

SubjectAuthor
* The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
+* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartChrysi Cat
|`* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
| `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartChrysi Cat
|  `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
|   `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartGraham Truesdale
|    `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
|     +* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartChrysi Cat
|     |+- Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartThe Horny Goat
|     |`* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
|     | `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartChrysi Cat
|     |  `- Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
|     `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartThe Horny Goat
|      `- Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
`* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartLouis Epstein
 `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom
  `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartLouis Epstein
   `* Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartGraham Truesdale
    +- Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartLouis Epstein
    `- Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of StuartRich Rostrom

1
The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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Subject: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sun, 5 Sep 2021 23:45 UTC

The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

PoD: the younger son of the Old Pretender James "III", Henry Stuart (b.
1725), is different.

Specifically, he's not a (probably homosexual) wimp who goes into the
Church, he's enthusiastically heterosexual.

In fact, he's an incorrigible skirt chaser, and fairly easily led around
by his little head. By his majority, he's seriously annoyed his family
with his affairs.

In 1745, he joins the French army that was to support his older
brother's bid for the British crown. However, the French army never
sails, and Henry sees action at the siege of Antwerp. (As in OTL.) He
does not return to to the Stuart court in Italy, being at odds with his
father. Instead he remains in France, serving with the French army and
chasing every available girl.

In late 1752, while stationed in Rouen, he becomes infatuated with
Marthe Labardon, 16-year-old daughter of a wealthy Huguenot banker. His
father has cut Henry's allowance to a pittance, and M. Labardon, who is
dazzled by the idea of a royal son-in-law (and by Henry's personality -
he has all the Stuart charm), offers a large dowry. So in November 1752,
Henry marries Marthe - in a Protestant ceremony, at the insistence of
Mme. Labardon.

There is quite an uproar over this. James demands that Henry leave
Marthe immediately and return to Italy. Louis XV backs this; he doesn't
need the scandal, and it's an insult after the favor he's shown Henry by
giving him military rank. Of course it takes a while for the news to
reach James in Rome, and for James to respond, and for Louis to take a
position.

By this time, Marthe is pregnant. Henry balks at leaving her. But pretty
soon, he becomes bored with married life, has run through the dowry
money, and is starting to chase other women. Then M. Labardon passes on
in July 1753. The family business and estate pass to his other
son-in-law, Francois Melsanne, husband of Marthe's older sister Helene.
Francois and Helene dislike Henry. The Widow Labardon never liked Henry
at all. They cut off any funds for him.

Henry now yields to the pressure from his father and Louis, and decamps
for Italy in August. Two months later, in October 1753, Marthe gives
birth to a boy, named Louis. James has applied to Pope Benedict for an
annulment of Henry's marriage, but the decree gets hung up due to the
illness of the canon charged with drafting it.

James decides Henry must marry and "settle down". He arranges Henry's
betrothal to an Italian bride. She's a daughter of a sister of the King
of Naples; 34 years old, fat, homely, and bad-tempered; no dowry. (But
who else would take Henry?) Henry finds his fate intolerable, and goes
on a last spree. One nignt he gets extremely drunk, and passes out in a
ditch of freezing water. He develops pneumonia and dies in January 1754,
making the still-pending annulment moot. Louis is a completely
legitimate child.

However, Louis is an embarrassment to both families. The Stuarts want
nothing to do with the child of a Protestant commoner; the Labardons and
Melsanne would like everyone to forget all about Marthe's entanglement
with a Catholic Lothario, especially their fellow Huguenots in Rouen. So
Marthe is shipped off to Germany to live with Melsanne's maternal aunt
Vivianne. Her husband, the Reverend Heinrich Flugert, is the leading
Reformed minister in the town of Hamm in the County of Mark, an outlying
possession of Brandenburg-Prussia.

Vivianne arranges a marriage for Marthe with her husband's middle-aged
nephew, Major Gottfried Sangdorf of the Prussian army. Marthe isn't
enthused about this, but after the humiliating outcome of her
infatuation with Henry, she's too beaten down to resist. Marthe is a
widow, and Gottfried adopts young Louis. Gottfried is a garrison
officer, who has never seen battle: a dull careerist. But he's a decent,
steady fellow who treats Marthe well. Louis grows up speaking German and
attending his uncle's church; no one remembers Henry.

Louis follows in his adoptive father's path and joins the Prussian army
in 1770. His career is comparably boring, but by 1806 he has risen to
the rank of colonel, and is placed in command of the small fortress of
Glatwurz. During the 1806 campaign, Napoleon smashes the Prussian army
to flinders. But Colonel Sangdorf successfully defends Glatwurz with two
battalions of second-rate garrison troops against a French division,
holding out for two weeks after the king had abandoned Berlin. This is
not as impressive as it looks: the division was understrength from
campaign attrition, and Glatwurz was a very strong natural stronghold.
But it provides one of the few bright spots of the war for Prussia.

So after the war, King Frederick William III raises Colonel Sangdorf to
the nobility as Count von Sangdorf. Von Sangdorf has a 20-year-old son,
Frederick, also an officer (a lieutenant) who helped in the defense of
Glatwurz. As an additional favor requested by Louis, Frederick is
promoted to captain and transferred to the 1st Leib-Husaren-Regiment in
the royal guards cavalry.

In response to the catastraphic defeat of 1806, the Prussian army
undergoes drastic reforms during the next several years. Captain von
Sangdorf is a clever and capable chap, who has inherited that Stuart
charm from his forgotten grandfather. He's in the thick of the reform
program, and becomes a protegé of the great reformer Scharnhorst. He is
promoted twice, so that by 1813, he's a lieutenant-colonel.

In that year, Prussia breaks free of its imposed alliance with France
and plunges into the War of the Sixth Coalition. There is massive
fighting between Napoleon and the combined forces of Prussia, Russia,
Austria, and Sweden. Von Sangdorf distinguishes himself at Bautzen, and
then at Haynau, where he commands a brigade of the militia cavalry led
by Blucher in the surprise rout of a French division. This earns him
promotion to colonel, though he must spend the next few weeks recovering
from a wound.

He wins futher honors at Katzbach, at Kulm, and finally in the "battle
of nations" at Leipzig in October 1813, where he is wounded again in the
course of an action that wins him the _Pour le Mérite_, Prussia's third
most prestigious award. He is also promoted to brigadier general.

After recovering from his wound, he joins Blucher and the Army of
Silesia for the 1814 invasion of France. Given command of the Guards
Cavalry Brigade, von Sangdorf performs brilliantly in several actions,
notably in the final Prussian victory at Laon. He is promoted to major
general and receives the Order of the Red Eagle (Prussia's second
highest honor). Shortly after this, his father Louis passes on, and he
inherits the title.

After Napoleon's abdication, General Count von Sangdorf visits London
along with many other distinguished soldiers of Britain's allies. He
meets Princess Charlotte, only child of the Prince of Wales, and thus
future heir to the throne. Charlotte has been bullied by her father, who
is also Prince Regent, into accepting betrothal to Prince William of
Orange, but doesn't like him much. She finds Frederick more attractive.
Frederick likes her too, but as a mere count, he is far beneath her in
rank and there is no real thought of any relationship.

Then a few months later, Charlotte's betrothal blows up over the
question of her mother, Caroline, who is completely alienated from her
father. She demands that William promise to welcome her mother in their
home; when he refuses, she breaks off the engagement. Secretly, she
fixes on von Sangdorf as the replacement, though his rank is still an
apparently insuperable obstacle.

In March 1815, Napoleon rebels against confinement to Elba, and returns
to power in France. The anti-Napoleon countries mobilize their armies
against him, including Prussia. During the Waterloo campaign, Von
Sangdorf, now commanding a division of Prussian cavalry under Blucher,
fights with his usual dash. At Ligny, he covers the Prussian retreat.
Then at Waterloo, the Prussians come on the field and engage the French
right flank.

Von Sangdorf personally leads three charges. The first charge breaks
through the line of the French VI Corps. The second charge drives off
the cavalry reforming behind d'Erlon's I Corps. The third charge sweeps
behind the French center to strike the Imperial Guard, then assaulting
the battered British forces at La Haye Sainte, throwing the Guard into
disorder. In the view of many, this action tips the balance of the
battle. Soon the entire French army is driven from the field. Wellington
himself praises von Sangdorf's last charge: "as splendid a feat of arms
as ever I saw."

Von Sangdorf meets Wellington on the field after the French retreat and
they exchange courtesies. After Sangdorf rides off, Wellington comments
to an aide "That chap was in London for the season last year... Good
thing Princess Charlotte didn't see him." To which the aide replies "I'm
afraid she did, sir."

Von Sangdorf is now the hero of the hour. King Frederick William III
creates him _Prince_ von Sangdorf, and invests him with the Order of the
Black Eagle (Prussia's highest honor). Russia awards him the Order of
St. George; Austria, the Order of Maria Theresa; Spain. the Order of the
Golden Fleece; Sweden, the Order of the Sword. At Wellington's
insistence, Britain awards him the Order of the Bath.


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From: Chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Mon, 6 Sep 2021 06:45 UTC

On 9/5/2021 5:45 PM, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
>
> PoD: the younger son of the Old Pretender James "III", Henry Stuart (b.
> 1725), is different.
>
> Specifically, he's not a (probably homosexual) wimp who goes into the
> Church, he's enthusiastically heterosexual.
>
> In fact, he's an incorrigible skirt chaser, and fairly easily led around
> by his little head. By his majority, he's seriously annoyed his family
> with his affairs.
>
> In 1745, he joins the French army that was to support his older
> brother's bid for the British crown. However, the French army never
> sails, and Henry sees action at the siege of Antwerp. (As in OTL.) He
> does not return to to the Stuart court in Italy, being at odds with his
> father. Instead he remains in France, serving with the French army and
> chasing every available girl.
>
> In late 1752, while stationed in Rouen, he becomes infatuated with
> Marthe Labardon, 16-year-old daughter of a wealthy Huguenot banker. His
> father has cut Henry's allowance to a pittance, and M. Labardon, who is
> dazzled by the idea of a royal son-in-law (and by Henry's personality -
> he has all the Stuart charm), offers a large dowry. So in November 1752,
> Henry marries Marthe - in a Protestant ceremony, at the insistence of
> Mme. Labardon.
>
> There is quite an uproar over this. James demands that Henry leave
> Marthe immediately and return to Italy. Louis XV backs this; he doesn't
> need the scandal, and it's an insult after the favor he's shown Henry by
> giving him military rank. Of course it takes a while for the news to
> reach James in Rome, and for James to respond, and for Louis to take a
> position.
>
> By this time, Marthe is pregnant. Henry balks at leaving her. But pretty
> soon, he becomes bored with married life, has run through the dowry
> money, and is starting to chase other women. Then M. Labardon passes on
> in July 1753. The family business and estate pass to his other
> son-in-law, Francois Melsanne, husband of Marthe's older sister Helene.
> Francois and Helene dislike Henry. The Widow Labardon never liked Henry
> at all. They cut off any funds for him.
>
> Henry now yields to the pressure from his father and Louis, and decamps
> for Italy in August. Two months later, in October 1753, Marthe gives
> birth to a boy, named Louis. James has applied to Pope Benedict for an
> annulment of Henry's marriage, but the decree gets hung up due to the
> illness of the canon charged with drafting it.
>
> James decides Henry must marry and "settle down". He arranges Henry's
> betrothal to an Italian bride. She's a daughter of a sister of the King
> of Naples; 34 years old, fat, homely, and bad-tempered; no dowry. (But
> who else would take Henry?) Henry finds his fate intolerable, and goes
> on a last spree. One nignt he gets extremely drunk, and passes out in a
> ditch of freezing water. He develops pneumonia and dies in January 1754,
> making the still-pending annulment moot. Louis is a completely
> legitimate child.
>
> However, Louis is an embarrassment to both families. The Stuarts want
> nothing to do with the child of a Protestant commoner; the Labardons and
> Melsanne would like everyone to forget all about Marthe's entanglement
> with a Catholic Lothario, especially their fellow Huguenots in Rouen. So
> Marthe is shipped off to Germany to live with Melsanne's maternal aunt
> Vivianne. Her husband, the Reverend Heinrich Flugert, is the leading
> Reformed minister in the town of Hamm in the County of Mark, an outlying
> possession of Brandenburg-Prussia.
>
> Vivianne arranges a marriage for Marthe with her husband's middle-aged
> nephew, Major Gottfried Sangdorf of the Prussian army. Marthe isn't
> enthused about this, but after the humiliating outcome of her
> infatuation with Henry, she's too beaten down to resist. Marthe is a
> widow, and Gottfried adopts young Louis. Gottfried is a garrison
> officer, who has never seen battle: a dull careerist. But he's a decent,
> steady fellow who treats Marthe well. Louis grows up speaking German and
> attending his uncle's church; no one remembers Henry.
>
> Louis follows in his adoptive father's path and joins the Prussian army
> in 1770. His career is comparably boring, but by 1806 he has risen to
> the rank of colonel, and is placed in command of the small fortress of
> Glatwurz. During the 1806 campaign, Napoleon smashes the Prussian army
> to flinders. But Colonel Sangdorf successfully defends Glatwurz with two
> battalions of second-rate garrison troops against a French division,
> holding out for two weeks after the king had abandoned Berlin. This is
> not as impressive as it looks: the division was understrength from
> campaign attrition, and Glatwurz was a very strong natural stronghold.
> But it provides one of the few bright spots of the war for Prussia.
>
> So after the war, King Frederick William III raises Colonel Sangdorf to
> the nobility as Count von Sangdorf. Von Sangdorf has a 20-year-old son,
> Frederick, also an officer (a lieutenant) who helped in the defense of
> Glatwurz. As an additional favor requested by Louis, Frederick is
> promoted to captain and transferred to the 1st Leib-Husaren-Regiment in
> the royal guards cavalry.
>
> In response to the catastraphic defeat of 1806, the Prussian army
> undergoes drastic reforms during the next several years.  Captain von
> Sangdorf is a clever and capable chap, who has inherited that Stuart
> charm from his forgotten grandfather. He's in the thick of the reform
> program, and becomes a protegé of the great reformer Scharnhorst. He is
> promoted twice, so that by 1813, he's a lieutenant-colonel.
>
> In that year, Prussia breaks free of its imposed alliance with France
> and plunges into the War of the Sixth Coalition. There is massive
> fighting between Napoleon and the combined forces of Prussia, Russia,
> Austria, and Sweden. Von Sangdorf distinguishes himself at Bautzen, and
> then at Haynau, where he commands a brigade of the militia cavalry led
> by Blucher in the surprise rout of a French division. This earns him
> promotion to colonel, though he must spend the next few weeks recovering
> from a wound.
>
> He wins futher honors at Katzbach, at Kulm, and finally in the "battle
> of nations" at Leipzig in October 1813, where he is wounded again in the
> course of an action that wins him the _Pour le Mérite_, Prussia's third
> most prestigious award. He is also promoted to brigadier general.
>
> After recovering from his wound, he joins Blucher and the Army of
> Silesia for the 1814 invasion of France. Given command of the Guards
> Cavalry Brigade, von Sangdorf performs brilliantly in several actions,
> notably in the final Prussian victory at Laon. He is promoted to major
> general and receives the Order of the Red Eagle (Prussia's second
> highest honor). Shortly after this, his father Louis passes on, and he
> inherits the title.
>
> After Napoleon's abdication, General Count von Sangdorf visits London
> along with many other distinguished soldiers of Britain's allies. He
> meets Princess Charlotte, only child of the Prince of Wales, and thus
> future heir to the throne. Charlotte has been bullied by her father, who
> is also Prince Regent, into accepting betrothal to Prince William of
> Orange, but doesn't like him much. She finds Frederick more attractive.
> Frederick likes her too, but as a mere count, he is far beneath her in
> rank and there is no real thought of any relationship.
>
> Then a few months later, Charlotte's betrothal blows up over the
> question of her mother, Caroline, who is completely alienated from her
> father. She demands that William promise to welcome her mother in their
> home; when he refuses, she breaks off the engagement. Secretly, she
> fixes on von Sangdorf as the replacement, though his rank is still an
> apparently insuperable obstacle.
>
> In March 1815, Napoleon rebels against confinement to Elba, and returns
> to power in France. The anti-Napoleon countries mobilize their armies
> against him, including Prussia. During the Waterloo campaign, Von
> Sangdorf, now commanding a division of Prussian cavalry under Blucher,
> fights with his usual dash. At Ligny, he covers the Prussian retreat.
> Then at Waterloo, the Prussians come on the field and engage the French
> right flank.
>
> Von Sangdorf personally leads three charges. The first charge breaks
> through the line of the French VI Corps. The second charge drives off
> the cavalry reforming behind d'Erlon's I Corps. The third charge sweeps
> behind the French center to strike the Imperial Guard, then assaulting
> the battered British forces at La Haye Sainte, throwing the Guard into
> disorder. In the view of many, this action tips the balance of the
> battle. Soon the entire French army is driven from the field. Wellington
> himself praises von Sangdorf's last charge: "as splendid a feat of arms
> as ever I saw."
>
> Von Sangdorf meets Wellington on the field after the French retreat and
> they exchange courtesies. After Sangdorf rides off, Wellington comments
> to an aide "That chap was in London for the season last year... Good
> thing Princess Charlotte didn't see him." To which the aide replies "I'm
> afraid she did, sir."
>
> Von Sangdorf is now the hero of the hour. King Frederick William III
> creates him _Prince_ von Sangdorf, and invests him with the Order of the
> Black Eagle (Prussia's highest honor). Russia awards him the Order of
> St. George; Austria, the Order of Maria Theresa; Spain. the Order of the
> Golden Fleece; Sweden, the Order of the Sword. At Wellington's
> insistence, Britain awards him the Order of the Bath.
>
> He again meets Charlotte in London. Both his reputation and his rank are
> much higher than a year before. After she drops some very broad hints,
> he proposes, and she accepts.
>
> This has four results.
>
> First, the Prince Regent is enraged and most of the court is shocked at
> von Sangdorf's presumption.
>
> But second, much of the public is charmed by the idea of the Princess
> marrying the hero of Waterloo, who is after all a Prince.
>
> Third, Wellington has just learned about his aide-de-camp Prince William
> of Orange's unsavory private life (he's a promiscuous bisexual). He
> decides he likes von Sangdorf a lot better. Charlotte's mother Caroline
> comes out for the marriage, if only because the Prince Regent doesn't.
>
> And fourth, Frederick's grandmother Marthe, still alive at 79, sends a
> bombshell letter. She informs Frederick that his real grandfather was
> not old Colonel Sangdorf, but her first husband, Henry Stuart.
>
> That means he is the descendant - the senior male-line descendant - of
> the exiled James II, and thus, in the "Jacobite" line of descent, the
> rightful King of Great Britain! The Jacobite cause was buried with
> Frederick's grand-uncle "Bonnie Prince Charlie", the "Young Pretender",
> who died in 1788. Now it comes back to life with a roar - well, sort of.
> Nobody actually thinks Frederick should be King, especially not
> Frederick, who had no idea of this. And of course, just about everyone
> is even more shocked.
>
> Charlotte however is _delighted_. Her prince, her true love, is not just
> gallant and handsome and heroic, he's _royal_! She knew it all along! So
> rank is no longer an issue - she insists. His being the Stuart "true
> prince" is like a romantic fairy tale, and she loves it - as do the public.
>
> The Prince Regent is even more enraged, but now the political tide is
> very strong against him. Even his mother, Queen Charlotte, tells him to
> yield.
>
> Charlotte and Frederick are married in March 1816. They have five
> children: Augusta (1818), George (1821), William (1824), Frederick
> (1827), and Adelaide (1829). At Charlotte's insistence, they adopt the
> name "Stuart". Charlotte succeeds as Queen in 1830. George succeeds as
> King in 1873, beginning the second House of Stuart.


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Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 19:46:35 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Thu, 9 Sep 2021 00:46 UTC

On 9/6/21 1:45 AM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> What on EARTH makes you think that Charlotte will have an easier
> pregnancy than IOTL?

What makes _you think that Charlotte would have exactly
the same difficulties as OTL?

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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From: Chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Thu, 9 Sep 2021 01:22 UTC

On 9/8/2021 6:46 PM, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 9/6/21 1:45 AM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
>> What on EARTH makes you think that Charlotte will have an easier
>> pregnancy than IOTL?
>
> What makes _you think that Charlotte would have exactly
> the same difficulties as OTL?
>

I just said. Unless it _IS_ some sort of "super sperm" in Leopold, she's
likely to still have the fetus outgrow her because it was caused by
*her* genes--and I would be more inclined to think she or Caroline hired
the quack who guaranteed her prenatal care would fail for anything other
than a right-size baby with an easy pregnancy.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 21:04:48 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Fri, 10 Sep 2021 02:04 UTC

On 9/8/21 8:22 PM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> he's likely to still have the fetus outgrow her because it was caused by
> *her* genes

How is that known?

Leopold's children by his wife and mistress were all normal-sized.
But AFAIK so were all the children of Charlotte's aunts, uncles,
and cousins. So there is nothing to suggest that she had some gene
for excessive size.

The size of that one baby was very likely a genetic accident.

Full siblings sometimes vary considerably in size. If the genetic
dice roll a string of sixes, the child can be widely variant.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:27 UTC

On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 3:04:51 AM UTC+1, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 9/8/21 8:22 PM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
> > he's likely to still have the fetus outgrow her because it was caused by
> > *her* genes
> How is that known?
>
> Leopold's children by his wife and mistress were all normal-sized.
> But AFAIK so were all the children of Charlotte's aunts, uncles,
> and cousins. So there is nothing to suggest that she had some gene
> for excessive size.
>
> The size of that one baby was very likely a genetic accident.
>
> Full siblings sometimes vary considerably in size. If the genetic
> dice roll a string of sixes, the child can be widely variant.
>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Charlotte_of_Wales#Marriage_and_death says that she had two miscarriages. I suggest that that indicates that she might have had reproductive issues even if she had married another man.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:25:39 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:25 UTC

On 9/10/21 1:27 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:

> I suggest that that indicates that she might have had reproductive > issues even if she had married another man.

"might".

In any case, ISTM this is a side issue compared to Frederick turning
out to be the unknown Jacobite heir.

No comments about _that_?
--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: Chrysi...@gmail.com (Chrysi Cat)
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 by: Chrysi Cat - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 00:59 UTC

On 9/10/2021 6:25 PM, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 9/10/21 1:27 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>
>> I suggest that that indicates that she might have had reproductive >
>> issues even if she had married another man.
>
> "might".
>
> In any case, ISTM this is a side issue compared to Frederick turning
> out to be the unknown Jacobite heir.
>
> No comments about _that_?

If you try to slot him or his son into the succession AHEAD of a
daughter of one of George III's sons just because he's Protestant and
direct-male-line from James II and IV once William passes, you're
looking at civil war if he hasn't married and fathered children on
Charlotte.

So, no, this isn't a side issue.

Incidentally, I have a feeling more of the British Army will side with
"the German whose family have at least been here over a century" than
"the one who just arrived".

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 04:47:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Louis Epstein - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 04:47 UTC

Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:
> The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
>
>
> After recovering from his wound, he joins Blucher and the Army of
> Silesia for the 1814 invasion of France. Given command of the Guards
> Cavalry Brigade, von Sangdorf performs brilliantly in several actions,
> notably in the final Prussian victory at Laon. He is promoted to major
> general and receives the Order of the Red Eagle (Prussia's second
> highest honor). Shortly after this, his father Louis passes on, and he
> inherits the title.
>
> After Napoleon's abdication, General Count von Sangdorf visits London
> along with many other distinguished soldiers of Britain's allies. He
> meets Princess Charlotte, only child of the Prince of Wales, and thus
> future heir to the throne. Charlotte has been bullied by her father, who
> is also Prince Regent, into accepting betrothal to Prince William of
> Orange, but doesn't like him much. She finds Frederick more attractive.
> Frederick likes her too, but as a mere count, he is far beneath her in
> rank and there is no real thought of any relationship.
>
> Then a few months later, Charlotte's betrothal blows up over the
> question of her mother, Caroline, who is completely alienated from her
> father. She demands that William promise to welcome her mother in their
> home; when he refuses, she breaks off the engagement. Secretly, she
> fixes on von Sangdorf as the replacement, though his rank is still an
> apparently insuperable obstacle.
>
> In March 1815, Napoleon rebels against confinement to Elba, and returns
> to power in France. The anti-Napoleon countries mobilize their armies
> against him, including Prussia. During the Waterloo campaign, Von
> Sangdorf, now commanding a division of Prussian cavalry under Blucher,
> fights with his usual dash. At Ligny, he covers the Prussian retreat.
> Then at Waterloo, the Prussians come on the field and engage the French
> right flank.
>
> Von Sangdorf personally leads three charges. The first charge breaks
> through the line of the French VI Corps. The second charge drives off
> the cavalry reforming behind d'Erlon's I Corps. The third charge sweeps
> behind the French center to strike the Imperial Guard, then assaulting
> the battered British forces at La Haye Sainte, throwing the Guard into
> disorder. In the view of many, this action tips the balance of the
> battle. Soon the entire French army is driven from the field. Wellington
> himself praises von Sangdorf's last charge: "as splendid a feat of arms
> as ever I saw."
>
> Von Sangdorf meets Wellington on the field after the French retreat and
> they exchange courtesies. After Sangdorf rides off, Wellington comments
> to an aide "That chap was in London for the season last year... Good
> thing Princess Charlotte didn't see him." To which the aide replies "I'm
> afraid she did, sir."
>
> Von Sangdorf is now the hero of the hour. King Frederick William III
> creates him _Prince_ von Sangdorf, and invests him with the Order of the
> Black Eagle (Prussia's highest honor).

What about the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross?
You have him serving directly under Blucher,who was made a Prince in 1814
and received the Star of the Grand Cross of the Iron Cross for his
service at Waterloo.

> Russia awards him the Order of
> St. George; Austria, the Order of Maria Theresa; Spain. the Order of the
> Golden Fleece; Sweden, the Order of the Sword. At Wellington's
> insistence, Britain awards him the Order of the Bath.
>
> He again meets Charlotte in London. Both his reputation and his rank are
> much higher than a year before. After she drops some very broad hints,
> he proposes, and she accepts.
>
> This has four results.
>
> First, the Prince Regent is enraged and most of the court is shocked at
> von Sangdorf's presumption.
>
> But second, much of the public is charmed by the idea of the Princess
> marrying the hero of Waterloo, who is after all a Prince.
>
> Third, Wellington has just learned about his aide-de-camp Prince William
> of Orange's unsavory private life (he's a promiscuous bisexual). He
> decides he likes von Sangdorf a lot better. Charlotte's mother Caroline
> comes out for the marriage, if only because the Prince Regent doesn't.
>
> And fourth, Frederick's grandmother Marthe, still alive at 79, sends a
> bombshell letter. She informs Frederick that his real grandfather was
> not old Colonel Sangdorf, but her first husband, Henry Stuart.
>
> That means he is the descendant - the senior male-line descendant - of
> the exiled James II, and thus, in the "Jacobite" line of descent, the
> rightful King of Great Britain! The Jacobite cause was buried with
> Frederick's grand-uncle "Bonnie Prince Charlie", the "Young Pretender",
> who died in 1788. Now it comes back to life with a roar - well, sort of.
> Nobody actually thinks Frederick should be King, especially not
> Frederick, who had no idea of this. And of course, just about everyone
> is even more shocked.
>
> Charlotte however is _delighted_. Her prince, her true love, is not just
> gallant and handsome and heroic, he's _royal_! She knew it all along! So
> rank is no longer an issue - she insists. His being the Stuart "true
> prince" is like a romantic fairy tale, and she loves it - as do the public.
>
> The Prince Regent is even more enraged, but now the political tide is
> very strong against him. Even his mother, Queen Charlotte, tells him to
> yield.
>
> Charlotte and Frederick are married in March 1816. They have five
> children: Augusta (1818), George (1821), William (1824), Frederick
> (1827), and Adelaide (1829). At Charlotte's insistence, they adopt the
> name "Stuart". Charlotte succeeds as Queen in 1830. George succeeds as
> King in 1873, beginning the second House of Stuart.

If Charlotte did have reproductive problems as in OTL,she could have
died giving birth to George,who would thus directly succeed his grandfather
in 1830...of course also succeeding to Hannover,with William and then
Ernest Augustus presumably being Regents since George IV would not have
countenanced a Regency Act empowering Frederick.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 16:16 UTC

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 19:25:39 -0500, Rich Rostrom
<rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:

>On 9/10/21 1:27 PM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
>
>> I suggest that that indicates that she might have had reproductive > issues even if she had married another man.
>
>"might".
>
>In any case, ISTM this is a side issue compared to Frederick turning
>out to be the unknown Jacobite heir.
>
>No comments about _that_?

Serious comments or silly ones? (Like "since when did a Scotsman have
difficulties impregnating his wife?")

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: lcra...@home.ca (The Horny Goat)
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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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 by: The Horny Goat - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 16:24 UTC

On Fri, 10 Sep 2021 18:59:22 -0600, Chrysi Cat <Chrysicat@gmail.com>
wrote:

>> In any case, ISTM this is a side issue compared to Frederick turning
>> out to be the unknown Jacobite heir.
>>
>> No comments about _that_?
>
>If you try to slot him or his son into the succession AHEAD of a
>daughter of one of George III's sons just because he's Protestant and
>direct-male-line from James II and IV once William passes, you're
>looking at civil war if he hasn't married and fathered children on
>Charlotte.

James IV? Uh - James I was James I and VI so I don't get your math.

>So, no, this isn't a side issue.
>
>Incidentally, I have a feeling more of the British Army will side with
>"the German whose family have at least been here over a century" than
>"the one who just arrived".

Not withstanding the fact that the mentality in the British Army wa
(and remains) "we won at Waterloo - with a _little_ help from our
Hanoverians" and completely ignored the Prussian contribution at
Ligny.

After all Marshal Grouchy spent most of the last 30 years of his life
accounting for what exactly he was up to on June 17-18, 1815. (part of
which was killing Prussians at Ligny - but failing to prevent the
remnants of the Prussian army arriving at Waterloo at a rather awkward
moment for the French army in mid-afternoon...)

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: rrost...@comcast.net (Rich Rostrom)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:08:24 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:08 UTC

On 9/10/21 11:47 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
> f Charlotte did have reproductive problems as in OTL,she could have
> died giving birth to George,who would thus directly succeed his grandfather
> in 1830...of course also succeeding to Hannover...

Nope. Charlotte has no claim to Hanover for George to inherit.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:35 UTC

On 9/10/21 7:59 PM, Chrysi Cat wrote:

> If you try to slot him or his son into the succession AHEAD of a
> daughter of one of George III's sons just because he's Protestant and
> direct-male-line from James II and IV once William passes, you're
> looking at civil war...
Can't you read?

"Nobody actually thinks Frederick should be King, especially not
Frederick, who had no idea of this...

Charlotte however is _delighted_. Her prince, her true love, is not just
gallant and handsome and heroic, he's _royal_! She knew it all along! So
rank is no longer an issue - she insists. His being the Stuart "true
prince" is like a romantic fairy tale, and she loves it - as do the public."

IOW, the match was already made _before_ Frederick's ancestry was
revealed, and the Jacobite link is just an amazing bit of decoration.

The actual succession is firmly settled. _If_ Charlotte dies without
children, it passes to her uncles. No one, _least_ _of_ _all_
_Frederick_, claims otherwise.

The assumption of the dynastic name of Stuart is by act of Charlotte
as Queen (by which time she has several children).

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2021 14:37:55 -0500
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Sat, 11 Sep 2021 19:37 UTC

On 9/11/21 11:16 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> Serious comments or silly ones?

Well, it's a frivolous WI.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:48:45 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID: <shk4bt$lua$1@reader1.panix.com>
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 by: Louis Epstein - Sun, 12 Sep 2021 05:48 UTC

Rich Rostrom <rrostrom@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 9/10/21 11:47 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> f Charlotte did have reproductive problems as in OTL,she could have
>> died giving birth to George,who would thus directly succeed his grandfather
>> in 1830...of course also succeeding to Hannover...
>
> Nope. Charlotte has no claim to Hanover for George to inherit.

Aha...so William finds himself destined for Hannover...but without
Charlotte dying when she did in OTL do any of George IV's brothers
marry and have heirs to Hannover?

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

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 by: Chrysi Cat - Sun, 12 Sep 2021 06:31 UTC

On 9/11/2021 1:35 PM, Rich Rostrom wrote:
> On 9/10/21 7:59 PM, Chrysi Cat wrote:
>
> > If you try to slot him or his son into the succession AHEAD of a
> > daughter of one of George III's sons just because he's Protestant and
> > direct-male-line from James II and IV once William passes, you're
> > looking at civil war...
> Can't you read?
>
> "Nobody actually thinks Frederick should be King, especially not
> Frederick, who had no idea of this...
>
> Charlotte however is _delighted_. Her prince, her true love, is not just
> gallant and handsome and heroic, he's _royal_! She knew it all along! So
> rank is no longer an issue - she insists. His being the Stuart "true
> prince" is like a romantic fairy tale, and she loves it - as do the
> public."
>
> IOW, the match was already made _before_ Frederick's ancestry was
> revealed, and the Jacobite link is just an amazing bit of decoration.
>
> The actual succession is firmly settled. _If_ Charlotte dies without
> children, it passes to her uncles. No one, _least_ _of_ _all_
> _Frederick_, claims otherwise.
>
> The assumption of the dynastic name of Stuart is by act of Charlotte
> as Queen (by which time she has several children).
>

O...K... ANY minute now you're going to realise how this indeed means
that my picking at the little "Charlotte is probably not destined to
have living offspring in any timeline" nit undoes your entire WI, then,
and thus there's no *point* in looking at the "secret heir of Henry" part.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
From: graham.t...@gmail.com (Graham Truesdale)
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 by: Graham Truesdale - Sun, 12 Sep 2021 12:00 UTC

On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 6:48:46 AM UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
> Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On 9/10/21 11:47 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
> >> f Charlotte did have reproductive problems as in OTL,she could have
> >> died giving birth to George,who would thus directly succeed his grandfather
> >> in 1830...of course also succeeding to Hannover...
> >
> > Nope. Charlotte has no claim to Hanover for George to inherit.
> Aha...so William finds himself destined for Hannover...but without
> Charlotte dying when she did in OTL do any of George IV's brothers
> marry and have heirs to Hannover?
>
Was it anticipated during Charlotte's OTL lifetime that Hanover would pass down the line of George IV's younger brothers? I realise that, between 1803 and 1814, the issue was fairly academic, as the Guelphs were not in possession of it. As of the Battle of Waterloo on 18 June 1815, George III's sons were all over forty. Was the next heir https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II,_Duke_of_Brunswick (born 1804)?

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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From: le...@top.put.com (Louis Epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.history.what-if
Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2021 02:42:51 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
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 by: Louis Epstein - Mon, 13 Sep 2021 02:42 UTC

Graham Truesdale <graham.truesdale@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 12, 2021 at 6:48:46 AM UTC+1, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> Rich Rostrom <rros...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> > On 9/10/21 11:47 PM, Louis Epstein wrote:
>> >> f Charlotte did have reproductive problems as in OTL,she could have
>> >> died giving birth to George,who would thus directly succeed his grandfather
>> >> in 1830...of course also succeeding to Hannover...
>> >
>> > Nope. Charlotte has no claim to Hanover for George to inherit.
>> Aha...so William finds himself destined for Hannover...but without
>> Charlotte dying when she did in OTL do any of George IV's brothers
>> marry and have heirs to Hannover?
>>
> Was it anticipated during Charlotte's OTL lifetime that Hanover would pass
> down the line of George IV's younger brothers? I realise that, between 1803
> and 1814, the issue was fairly academic, as the Guelphs were not in
> possession of it. As of the Battle of Waterloo on 18 June 1815, George III's
> sons were all over forty. Was the next heir
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_II,_Duke_of_Brunswick (born 1804)?

Charlotte's death in 1817 impelled a spate of marriages...George III had had
an irrational aversion to his children marrying and had only let 3 of 15
do so,but by then he was under a regency.Ernest Augustus (Duke of
Cumberland) married in 1815 with the Regent's permission,and the Dukes
of Clarence,Kent,and Cambridge all married in 1818.
Only Cumberland and Cambridge had a single son each.

If this TL does not lead to Clarence or Kent marrying,Cumberland may
still have married and had the son as in OTL...who survived Charles II
who in OTL was deposed from his part of Brunswick in 1830 having only
reigned personally from 1823 after a regency by George IV.

Does this TL have any butterfly effects on the Austro-Prussian War
that resulted in Hannover being dissolved and the heirs only
grudgingly granted Brunswick years after Charles II's brother/successor
joined him in dying childless?

The two Guelph states uniting might be interesting.

-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.

Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart

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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:34 UTC

On 9/12/21 7:00 AM, Graham Truesdale wrote:
> > Was it anticipated during Charlotte's OTL lifetime that Hanover
> would pass down the line of George IV's younger brothers?

> I realise that, between 1803 and 1814, the issue was fairly
> academic, as the Guelphs were not in possession of it.

Even by 1803, it was by no means certain George IV-to-be
would not have a son. And then it was academic till 1814;
and for a while after that, future arrangements in Germany
were in flux.

Hanover was an afterthought for British royals.

> As of the Battle of Waterloo on 18 June 1815, George III's
> sons were all over forty.

But they were all reasonably healthy. At least three had
children later.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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Subject: Re: The Accidental Restoration of the House of Stuart
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 by: Rich Rostrom - Mon, 13 Sep 2021 15:40 UTC

On 9/12/21 1:31 AM, Chrysi Cat wrote:

Well, _if_

> "Charlotte is _probably_ not destined to have living offspring in any timeline"

(emphasis added)

then it was not _impossible_ for Charlotte to have living children, and
there is no reason to have a conniption fit over an _A_TL where she
does.

--
Nous sommes dans une pot de chambre, et nous y serons emmerdés.
--- General Auguste-Alexandre Ducrot at Sedan, 1870.

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